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  • #46
    Re: President

    UHMMM,
    I don't know Rick,this is kind of a spot for people with whom I respect can discuss issues that I am not very familliar with have open discussion.

    I mean,everyone is being respectfull and keeping cool.

    There are a lot of places on the forum we can play with our tools.

    But then again I do not know how the forum intends open discussion.

    Adam.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: President

      Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
      Dog, Sorry for the late response been out of town for a couple of days. To answer your question. I made a mistake , meant amendment 14 in the bill of rights. This talks about life or the protection of life. Also I don't think I would have a hard time convincing anyone about welfare as this is the definition(1wel·fare
      Pronunciation: \ˈwel-ˌfer\
      Function: noun
      Etymology: Middle English, from the phrase wel faren to fare well
      Date: 14th century
      1: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>)


      Now I can see that you read the constitution differently then I do. When the constitution is read it should be done so from the perspective of the men that wrote it. Or it should be amended. At the time this was written, there was not stem cell research.
      I again am fine with stem cell research done in certain ways . I am just not OK, with my money going to certain forms of research. Considering it is my money and not yours , I do not see what the problem is. By the way maybe you should read up a little more as CA already has given over 350 million to stem cell research. Also CA is planning to spend 3 billion on this within the next decade. To my knowledge this is on adult stem cell research. What ever it is on in my opinion is wrong. Not due to moral issues but rather budget issues. Studies or projects like this should funded by the private market.
      To my knowledge when this money was pledged we were still in a large amount of debt as a state. If I ran my home or business like this I would have to file bankruptcy. The bottom line is I am fiscal conservative, so you being more liberal minded would not agree with me. I think I have given a valid argument. 1 many members of our society feel?think certain forms of testing are immoral. 2 Our fore fathers did not intend for us to be taxed for these types of social health care programs.3 The constitution states that life should be protected. Until you or someone descends from the sky and tells me this isn't life ( embryonic stem cells) then I do not want to take any chances. Here is the definition of life(1life
      Pronunciation: \ˈlīf\
      Function: noun
      Inflected Form(s): plural lives \ˈlīvz\
      Etymology: Middle English lif, from Old English līf; akin to Old English libban to live — more at live
      Date: before 12th century
      1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
      2 a: the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b: one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>
      3)
      Besides in the original post you replied to, I said to P Crack that the (liberal media) media shows this in the wrong light. Currently there is plenty of money going to this and many other social programs, not covered under the Constitution.
      In closing read the bill of rights, the constitution and if you still feel this way then put up some of your own money. I know I already do enough as far as my time , money or talents go. I am very involved in my community. I think its time others start carrying there weight. From the many post I have read from you it doesn't seam as though you are the type of person that is involved. You yourself said you would not be a good neighbor. Sorry I just think its ironic you are trying to argue this type stuff with me. Also please explain to me if you even care about the constitution or what value the document holds. I do not mean any disrespect to you this is just my observation.
      Rick, If you don't like it don't read it. Actually, Crappy and I disagree strongly on this issue, but I respect his opinions, and he does mine. What's wrong with political debate? Maybe that's what's wrong with this country. Everyone gets scared when someone gives an actual opinion.

      Now on to Crappy.

      If we based our interpretation of the constitution by our founding father's intentions we would still have slavery in this country.
      the dog

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: President

        Come on Dog amendment 13 of the bill of rights. Please read these things then lets talk. My argument about the liberal thought process is this exact thing , most libs don't even know the constitution. Everyone should know this by the end of eighth grade. I am a high school drop out and know the basics. More and more people I talk with do not even know this basic stuff.
        My brother just married a girl from Peru, she knows more about our laws then the average American.
        THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: President

          Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
          Come on Dog amendment 13 of the bill of rights. Please read these things then lets talk. My argument about the liberal thought process is this exact thing , most libs don't even know the constitution. Everyone should know this by the end of eighth grade. I am a high school drop out and know the basics. More and more people I talk with do not even know this basic stuff.
          My brother just married a girl from Peru, she knows more about our laws then the average American.
          Your contention was that we should interpret the constitution by the writers' intentions. Again, it we went by the founder's intentions the constitution referred to white males, and in most cases land owners. Is that how we should interpret it today?



          As far as a liberal knowing the constitution, I knew the was no Section 14 of Article 7. Some of us liberals know more than you think we do.

          Amendment XIII refers to abolishing slavery. As a matter of fact it's very clear and plain in doing so. Explain how this prohibits the US government from spending money on medical research. If you are suggesting that paying taxes somehow qualifies as slavery or involantary servitude, again I think you would have a very hard time convincing even the conservative courts of that.

          As a matter of fact you may want to review Amendment XVI which gives the federal gorernment the right to collect income tax.
          the dog

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: President

            I think Rick is just jealous because he is stumped by the amendments once he gets past the first one

            Joey
            I love my plumber

            "My Hero"

            Welcome, Phoebe Jacqueline!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: President

              Dog your totally losing this argument and you know it. I was just answering your Question. If you think that is talking strictly about white land owners you are totally in left field. Look at the year it was amended. And there are articles in the constitution that say exactly what the purpose of taxes are. Besides are you not recognizing what life is or do you just not agree with Websters definition. If you were to speak with an expert on the constitution or hear one lecture you would see my point .
              Who else is reading this thread. Does anyone else interpret the constitution or bill of rights this way . Please any of you guys who can comment. Especially any of you who have a history, or law degree.


              Slavery was an institution in America in the 18th and 19th centuries. The Southern states, with their agricultural economies, relied on the slavery system to ensure the cash crops (cotton, hemp, rice, indigo, and tobacco, primarily) were tended and cultivated. Slaves were not unknown in the North, but abolition in the North was completed by the 1830's. In 1808, the Congress prohibited the slave trade, not a year later than allowed in the Constitution. A series of compromises, laws, acts, and bills tried to keep the balance between the slave states and the non-slave states. For a more thorough history of slavery, see the Slavery Topic Page.

              South Carolina voted to secede from the United States as a result of Abraham Lincoln's election to the Presidency. Lincoln had, over time, voiced strong objections to slavery, and his incoming administration was viewed as a threat to the right of the states to keep their institutions, particularly that of slavery, the business of the states. More states seceded, eleven in all, forming the Confederate States of America. The secession movement led to the Civil War. In the waning days of the war, which ran from 1861 to 1865, the Congress approved an amendment to abolish slavery in all of the United States. Once the CSA was defeated, approval of the 13th Amendment was quick in the Northern states. By the end of 1865, eight of the eleven Confederate states had also ratified it. Proposed on January 31, 1865, it was ratified on December 6, 1865 (309 days). Eventually, all of the CSA states except Mississippi ratified the 13th after the war; Mississippi ratified the amendment in 1995.
              Last edited by Crappy days; 06-26-2007, 03:29 AM.
              THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: President

                This country is nothing without the Constitution. If we fail to recognize and honor these great documents. Then we will fail as a great nation , we will become complacent. And a complacent nation is a weak nation. If we continue to overstep the laws rather then change them. Then we are no different then the criminals ,the only difference is our prisons have no walls.
                Last edited by Crappy days; 06-26-2007, 03:56 AM.
                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: President

                  I am not going to close this one because you guys are being civil for the most part.

                  I think others concern with politics is it is a divider. Especially as the election nears people who you get along with great become your "enemies" because they believe something counter to your beliefs.

                  You guys will "discuss" till your blue in the face over this without getting the "other side" to concede. All that is accomplished is we know exactly how everyone feels about topics... most people cant handle that knowledge and half the people that read it loose some respect 4 ya.

                  Just be careful guys, its a slippery slope.

                  Josh

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: President

                    I actually gained some respect for Dog. I never lost any respect for Crappy. I lose more respect for people in the flat rate discussion.
                    Last edited by gear junkie; 06-26-2007, 09:25 AM. Reason: reword
                    Buy cheap, buy twice.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: President

                      Dog you better watch out. Forum members are saying more and more positive stuff about you

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: President

                        dog for president

                        rick.
                        phoebe it is

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: President

                          Dog this will probably be my last post for now on this subject. I think that you just do not get what I'm saying. Whether you are religious or not the constitution protects life. Until someone proves that(embryo) embryonic stem cells are not life. Well then it is going to take an amendment to the constitution. Or the politicians will just do what they have been doing ignoring it. I want people to understand that through history when we fail to look at the past and respect our elders. We have to learn over again what they sacrificed for the hard way for.

                          My fear is if we lose our morality or respect for life ( no matter how small or large ). We will collapse as all the other great empires/nations have done Rome etc. There are many ways to receive embryonic stem cells without the mass production of them. These stem cells would be destroyed normally anyhow. We should be focusing our efforts differently as a nation ,then we have been doing.

                          I am perfectly content with following the laws even if I do not agree with them. If it is the consensus of the people that this or other research go forward, then I will pay my fair share. At this point I just do not believe most of the public understands this. I would challenge each of us to talk about this more openly with friends and family.

                          My wife and I speak regularly about topics like this . Just a couple of days ago I was explaining to Some of my neighbors in Arizona the difference between embryonic and adult stem cells. These people are old enough to be my parents and far more educated then I. They had no knowledge of what the difference was. Until the public starts getting involved. This is only going to get worse.

                          Dog, I want you to know I can see your point of view. At this point I do not agree with it. I think more money should be coming from the private sector ( bio firms, and other medical research company's) . The government if they want can give incentives for this to happen. There should be more opportunities for birth moms to donate there umbilical cords( that have embryonic stem cells ) . And until we come to an agreement on when life starts as a nation. Embryonic cloning or unnatural production for the purpose of destruction should be put on hold.
                          Last edited by Crappy days; 06-26-2007, 01:38 PM.
                          THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: President

                            I will keep it short. Crappy days, I agree with you. I interpret it the same way.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: President

                              Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
                              Dog this will probably be my last post for now on this subject. I think that you just do not get what I'm saying. Whether you are religious or not the constitution protects life. Until someone proves that(embryo) embryonic stem cells are not life. Well then it is going to take an amendment to the constitution. Or the politicians will just do what they have been doing ignoring it. I want people to understand that through history when we fail to look at the past and respect our elders. We have to learn over again what they sacrificed for the hard way for.

                              My fear is if we lose our morality or respect for life ( no matter how small or large ). We will collapse as all the other great empires/nations have done Rome etc. There are many ways to receive embryonic stem cells without the mass production of them. These stem cells would be destroyed normally anyhow. We should be focusing our efforts differently as a nation ,then we have been doing.

                              I am perfectly content with following the laws even if I do not agree with them. If it is the consensus of the people that this or other research go forward, then I will pay my fair share. At this point I just do not believe most of the public understands this. I would challenge each of us to talk about this more openly with friends and family.

                              My wife and I speak regularly about topics like this . Just a couple of days ago I was explaining to Some of my neighbors in Arizona the difference between embryonic and adult stem cells. These people are old enough to be my parents and far more educated then I. They had no knowledge of what the difference was. Until the public starts getting involved. This is only going to get worse.

                              Dog, I want you to know I can see your point of view. At this point I do not agree with it. I think more money should be coming from the private sector ( bio firms, and other medical research company's) . The government if they want can give incentives for this to happen. There should be more opportunities for birth moms to donate there umbilical cords( that have embryonic stem cells ) . And until we come to an agreement on when life starts as a nation. Embryonic cloning or unnatural production for the purpose of destruction should be put on hold.
                              I "get" what you are saying, I disagree. And that's OK. We should all present our opinions. This country, and our society, has gone seriously wrong. I think both liberals (and as one I want it known I am not a member of the Democratic Party) and conservatives know that. How do we fix it, or can we? Without open discussion (which I believe Americans have become afraid of) we won't.

                              Thank you for the discussion. I also encourage you to continue to post your opinions weather I agree with them, or anyone else agrees with them. It is what the true revolutionary origin of our country was founded on.

                              Thank you for being a true American.

                              ps. What's with that weird dog with the ribbons? Don't make me take back my above post.
                              Last edited by plumbdog10; 06-26-2007, 11:25 PM.
                              the dog

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: President

                                The picture is of my dog buddy. That is blue masking tape for painting. He is always with me when possible, so sometimes it’s inevitable that he will get into things. The picture was taken while doing a honey do for my wife. I don’t think buddy likes painting much.

                                Thanks for talking about your views and thoughts on this subject , it was fun.
                                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

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