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  • #16
    Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

    I had to go back and make sure that wasnt an exact quote. I thought maybe I slipped up

    Originally posted by smorris View Post
    Fixed that for ya.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

      Originally posted by piette View Post
      Hitlery is just plain scarey, she would be an abomination to this country. Her husband gave of us NAFTA, wondering where your job went, ask Hitlery...
      That is incorrect...

      "NAFTA was initially pursued by corporate interest in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari."

      Source

      It was corporations and the conservative governments of the time that cooked it up
      Last edited by jbergstrom; 01-24-2008, 04:55 PM.
      Cheers! - Jim
      -------------
      All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. - Schopenhauer

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

        We need to build our manufacturing base back up to something large enough to make us near self sufficient in that area. Right now we are dependent on overseas manufacturers for almost everything. Think about where all the pipe and fittings you have bought in the past few years are made, what percentage is from China, or India, or Thailand or elsewhere?

        Now after 20 years you are starting to hear talk of building more nuclear power plants to help reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Setting aside the issues of whether nuclear power is a sound choice and for the sake of argument lets says its our best hope in the near term (which I don't agree with 100% myself), but lets just say so for now. Each of those plants to be built in the near future (next 8 or 20 years) will require miles of pipe and cable and so many other bits and pieces it would make your head spin. With an average estimated cost of $4 to $5.5 Billion that's a lot of parts. There are approximately 24 permits in the works right now, all trying to claim a chuck of that federal money earmarked to jump start the process of building new plants. If roughly half the cost of a unit is materials, that's near 50 Billion worth of manufacturing that will be going overseas. Why?

        No foundry in the US has the capability to cast the pieces for and fabricate the large reactors (roughly 500 tons each) and other vessels any longer. Most of the large pump castings and huge electric motors used to drive fans and pumps and other equipment are made in Europe (Germany and France mostly), China, Korea, or Japan. And to top it off the American firms that once were the leaders in the field have been bought up by foreign companies. Much of the engineering and oversight for major projects at existing nuclear plants is done by foreign companies like AREVA, Framatone(major mechanical components, Engineering, and construction management), Siemens (electrical components), or Fagoili or Mammoet (both heavy riggers), and others.

        My point is that if federal money is going to be underwriting a portion of these projects, shouldn't we be supporting American-owned companies (and NOT ones held by foreign inverstors either) by placing orders with them where ever possible? The number of spin off jobs would be huge and last for years.
        ---------------
        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
        ---------------
        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
        ---------
        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
        ---------
        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

          Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
          We need to build our manufacturing base back up to something large enough to make us near self sufficient in that area. Right now we are dependent on overseas manufacturers for almost everything. Think about where all the pipe and fittings you have bought in the past few years are made, what percentage is from China, or India, or Thailand or elsewhere?

          Now after 20 years you are starting to hear talk of building more nuclear power plants to help reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Setting aside the issues of whether nuclear power is a sound choice and for the sake of argument lets says its our best hope in the near term (which I don't agree with 100% myself), but lets just say so for now. Each of those plants to be built in the near future (next 8 or 20 years) will require miles of pipe and cable and so many other bits and pieces it would make your head spin. With an average estimated cost of $4 to $5.5 Billion that's a lot of parts. There are approximately 24 permits in the works right now, all trying to claim a chuck of that federal money earmarked to jump start the process of building new plants. If roughly half the cost of a unit is materials, that's near 50 Billion worth of manufacturing that will be going overseas. Why?

          No foundry in the US has the capability to cast the pieces for and fabricate the large reactors (roughly 500 tons each) and other vessels any longer. Most of the large pump castings and huge electric motors used to drive fans and pumps and other equipment are made in Europe (Germany and France mostly), China, Korea, or Japan. And to top it off the American firms that once were the leaders in the field have been bought up by foreign companies. Much of the engineering and oversight for major projects at existing nuclear plants is done by foreign companies like AREVA, Framatone(major mechanical components, Engineering, and construction management), Siemens (electrical components), or Fagoili or Mammoet (both heavy riggers), and others.

          My point is that if federal money is going to be underwriting a portion of these projects, shouldn't we be supporting American-owned companies (and NOT ones held by foreign inverstors either) by placing orders with them where ever possible? The number of spin off jobs would be huge and last for years.
          Bob, I can't understand how our legislators allowed the loss of all those manufacturing jobs in the first place? You are so right that we have lost not only the ability to produce many goods but the skill and income as well. Our steel industry is gone and the products coming out of china and india are garbage across the board. There is no quality control! Brand new car parts such as brake rotors are often defective out of the box and just don't hold up like they use to. I compare what's happened here in the USA to a village where the residents no longer make anything they use but depend on other villages for all their goods, not a secure future if those other villages turn on you. In the long run is it really that much cheaper to have all these things made in china or india? When you factor in the loss of jobs here and the poor quality, what did you save?Every time a politician or some economic expert on cable tv says we will never see those manufacturing jobs come back, I think " Fine, let all those people doing those jobs in the third world buy your consumer electronic and cars". Of course you can't buy much of anything when you live below the poverty level. I don't know how all this will play out, but it makes sense that we need to earn income, make the things we use and somehow reduce or need for foreign oil. Who will save us, bring us back from the brink?

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

            Controversy Below...

            I may be completely off on this and I am sorry if I offend anyone. If you are offended by this than you probably aren't the group I am talking about but its my opinion US workers are loosing what differentiated us from the lower cost alternatives. In my opinion the biggest problem is that people just dont care anymore about making the best products in the world. They care a lot more about being paid as much as they possibly can for doing as little as possible then consuming as much product as they can and cant afford. This make bringing manufacturing jobs back to the state that much harder. Some companies can source better manufacturing at a cheaper price overseas than what they can do in the US so its a tough choice to stay here.

            Even when I was growing up 25 years ago I remember commercials and shows that tried to motivate people to be the best they could be and to take pride in their work. Kids are taught to be super consumers from the day they are born... while neglecting to teach them anything about contribution. I love the attitude on this forum and its one of the reasons I am so passionate about keeping this place as pure as possible. People really care about their work on here and they strive to do the best job they can. Its a rare thing in the world we live in today.

            So who knows what the future hold but I think someone needs to get out there and start teaching the younger generations to give a crap about what they are doing. I know there are many exceptions but I don't think we are headed in the right direction as a population.

            My 2 cents.

            Josh

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

              Originally posted by Josh View Post
              Controversy Below...

              I may be completely off on this and I am sorry if I offend anyone. If you are offended by this than you probably aren't the group I am talking about but its my opinion US workers are loosing what differentiated us from the lower cost alternatives. In my opinion the biggest problem is that people just dont care anymore about making the best products in the world. They care a lot more about being paid as much as they possibly can for doing as little as possible then consuming as much product as they can and cant afford. This make bringing manufacturing jobs back to the state that much harder. Some companies can source better manufacturing at a cheaper price overseas than what they can do in the US so its a tough choice to stay here.

              Even when I was growing up 25 years ago I remember commercials and shows that tried to motivate people to be the best they could be and to take pride in their work. Kids are taught to be super consumers from the day they are born... while neglecting to teach them anything about contribution. I love the attitude on this forum and its one of the reasons I am so passionate about keeping this place as pure as possible. People really care about their work on here and they strive to do the best job they can. Its a rare thing in the world we live in today.

              So who knows what the future hold but I think someone needs to get out there and start teaching the younger generations to give a crap about what they are doing. I know there are many exceptions but I don't think we are headed in the right direction as a population.

              My 2 cents.

              Josh
              Amen to that,

              I believe that you are right,

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                Josh, for what it's worth I don't think your observations are wrong but they are part of a much bigger and long term problem. Back in the mid 1960"s I remember Union pickets from the Ladies Garment Workers Union protesting outside a local clothing store in The Bronx. I don't know if you ever saw those tv commercials with the catchy phrase "Look for the Union label, it means we're able to make it in the USA". Anyway they were upset with the import of cheap clothing from Japan and the risk to their jobs. That was kind of the beginning of the end for production or manufacturing jobs here. I think over these many years the American worker has seen his and her hard work trampled by corporate greed and government shortsightedness. Ever hear the song by Billy Joel "AllenTown", it describes exactly what has been torn from the American spirit from the loss of jobs that once allowed for the American Dream. We can inspire that sense of pride in a job well done once again but it will take time, effort and some guarantee that in the end you will have more to show for your hard work than an unemployment check! I've always told my daughters "Anything worth doing is worth doing well" and I believe that. I think it helps when young people see that their hard working parents don't get slapped in the face as theri jobs move to mexico, china, india or some other third world country. Let's face it, in the Trades you'd better be hard working and worth your weight or else you will lose out to the better worker, but in other lines of work even if you do your best your jobs can just up and go where labor is cheaper regadless of quality. You touched on a much broader problem in our country and I seriously think the solution requires more than good parenting and pep talks. The public needs good jobs with a future, give them back a sense of hope then you can demand hard work and an eye for quality that we were known for years ago when our work and jobs stayed right here! Continue to allow jobs to exit and offer a tax rebate in lieu of work and the apathy will grow.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                  Agree completely. There are still a lot of hardworking people out there but even more people who ruin it for everyone with poor work ethic. And please understand this. I am all for keeping manufacturing jobs here in the US I think its a major problem loosing jobs to low cost countries. However, I acknowledge for the US manufacturing to be "worth the extra cost" the quality of the product and hence the work has to be superior. I'd love to see the work ethic of our country as a whole revive. I don't know what else we can do beyond starting where people are most malleable (when they are kids). I really take pride in my work and am fortunate enough to be surround with a lot of coworkers who take pride in their work. I don't think you could be happy in any job without that attitude regardless of how easy or how much you got paid. The true tragedy is when you give it everything and have the work ethic I am talking about and still end up getting laid off because a plant shut down.

                  Its a major problem that will eventually have to be resolved all I can do is try to teach my kids how to differentiate themselves and stand out amongst the crowd and make sure they know that its not all about just them.

                  Josh

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  Josh, for what it's worth I don't think your observations are wrong but they are part of a much bigger and long term problem. Back in the mid 1960"s I remember Union pickets from the Ladies Garment Workers Union protesting outside a local clothing store in The Bronx. I don't know if you ever saw those tv commercials with the catchy phrase "Look for the Union label, it means we're able to make it in the USA". Anyway they were upset with the import of cheap clothing from Japan and the risk to their jobs. That was kind of the beginning of the end for production or manufacturing jobs here. I think over these many years the American worker has seen his and her hard work trampled by corporate greed and government shortsightedness. Ever hear the song by Billy Joel "AllenTown", it describes exactly what has been torn from the American spirit from the loss of jobs that once allowed for the American Dream. We can inspire that sense of pride in a job well done once again but it will take time, effort and some guarantee that in the end you will have more to show for your hard work than an unemployment check! I've always told my daughters "Anything worth doing is worth doing well" and I believe that. I think it helps when young people see that their hard working parents don't get slapped in the face as theri jobs move to mexico, china, india or some other third world country. Let's face it, in the Trades you'd better be hard working and worth your weight or else you will lose out to the better worker, but in other lines of work even if you do your best your jobs can just up and go where labor is cheaper regadless of quality. You touched on a much broader problem in our country and I seriously think the solution requires more than good parenting and pep talks. The public needs good jobs with a future, give them back a sense of hope then you can demand hard work and an eye for quality that we were known for years ago when our work and jobs stayed right here! Continue to allow jobs to exit and offer a tax rebate in lieu of work and the apathy will grow.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                    Originally posted by Josh View Post
                    Controversy Below...

                    I may be completely off on this and I am sorry if I offend anyone. If you are offended by this than you probably aren't the group I am talking about but its my opinion US workers are loosing what differentiated us from the lower cost alternatives. In my opinion the biggest problem is that people just dont care anymore about making the best products in the world. They care a lot more about being paid as much as they possibly can for doing as little as possible then consuming as much product as they can and cant afford. This make bringing manufacturing jobs back to the state that much harder. Some companies can source better manufacturing at a cheaper price overseas than what they can do in the US so its a tough choice to stay here.

                    Even when I was growing up 25 years ago I remember commercials and shows that tried to motivate people to be the best they could be and to take pride in their work. Kids are taught to be super consumers from the day they are born... while neglecting to teach them anything about contribution. I love the attitude on this forum and its one of the reasons I am so passionate about keeping this place as pure as possible. People really care about their work on here and they strive to do the best job they can. Its a rare thing in the world we live in today.

                    So who knows what the future hold but I think someone needs to get out there and start teaching the younger generations to give a crap about what they are doing. I know there are many exceptions but I don't think we are headed in the right direction as a population.

                    My 2 cents.

                    Josh
                    Josh, unfortunately you are right about this. And it's OUR fault, those of use who are over 50, because we should have been pushing our kids as hard as our parents pushed us. Any of you over 50 here that had everything you could want handed to you? We were talking today at work about how when you got a winter coat it lasted you until it was worn out, not until it went out of style which was much sooner. Unfortunately todays world is not as friendly as it was in the 60s and early 70s, nor as easy for a kid to get a job. I remember helping out at the local hardware store after school twice a week unloading truckloads of fertilizer and lime and other products they sold. I was in eighth grade and the HW store was on my way home from school so myself and two friends would stop by and do an hour or two of work twice a week to make some pocket money. I used mine to pay for my bike which I used on my paper route and was buying on credit. I think it was like $68.00 including the big basket for the papers and I had to pay like $6/week on it. Child labor laws would not let a 13 or 14 year old do that type of work, at least not around here now a days. A friend at work today said his sons Birthday is coming up and he was discussing with his wife about getting the boy a laptop. He voted no as he felt his son had not demonstrated enough responsibility to appreciate a laptop since he has shown that he has no trouble or concern over 'misplacing' or otherwise loosing expensive jackets, athletic shoes, electronic devices, etc. So he votes to let the son earn the money for a laptop so he will have some incentive to care for it and maintain control.
                    ---------------
                    Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                    ---------------
                    “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                    ---------
                    "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                    ---------
                    sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                      First off, I am not here to try to upset anyone but I would like to make a couple of observations as an ex-pat.

                      Since this is Ridgid's forum I will use Ridgid as an example. Why has Ridgid outsourced the manufacturing of many of its tools?

                      Is it because the employees of Ridgid are slackers and can't produce quality products? If Josh is a typical example of a Ridgid employee then I believe we would all agree that Ridgid has excellent employees.

                      Is it because consumers don't wish to pay double or triple the current sales price for their tools? That is a distinct possibility. Think about it; how many of you shop at Walmart or Home Depot? The typical consumer that shops at Walmart goes there because it is convenient and cheap.

                      Is it possible that Ridgid could reduce the cost to manufacture the tools in the US sufficiently through the inventiveness and cleverness of their engineering/manufacturing team to maintain profitability and the standard of living for their employees? Perhaps. But I think that if one were to talk to the beancounters of Ridgid, the largest part of the costs to make the tools is the cost of the employees. One could perhaps, through extra cleverness in operating the manufacturing processes, reduce the need for employees to touch the products being made. That of course would mean fewer employees would be needed to make the parts.

                      Detroit has tried that in the car manufacturing business; employing robots to assemble, weld and paint car parts.

                      I'm not sure what the answer is for the American workers.

                      As I see it, the manufacturing jobs get outsourced to other countries, or outsourced to non-Americans working in the US willing to accept a salary that makes it difficult to have a decent standard of living in the US.

                      It is not just in the manufacturing sector that we see the outsourcing though. In the service sector of which many of you are a part there is an increasing outsourcing of work to foreigners and it is NOT because the plumbers or the carpenters or the electricians or the people that work in the other trades are slackers. It is because people are loathe to part with their hard earned dollars for that type of work so they hire the cheapest people to do the job.

                      go to the plumbing threads on this forum and you will see what I mean.
                      Last edited by franklie; 01-25-2008, 09:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                        Originally posted by Josh View Post
                        Agree completely. There are still a lot of hardworking people out there but even more people who ruin it for everyone with poor work ethic. And please understand this. I am all for keeping manufacturing jobs here in the US I think its a major problem loosing jobs to low cost countries. However, I acknowledge for the US manufacturing to be "worth the extra cost" the quality of the product and hence the work has to be superior. I'd love to see the work ethic of our country as a whole revive. I don't know what else we can do beyond starting where people are most malleable (when they are kids). I really take pride in my work and am fortunate enough to be surround with a lot of coworkers who take pride in their work. I don't think you could be happy in any job without that attitude regardless of how easy or how much you got paid. The true tragedy is when you give it everything and have the work ethic I am talking about and still end up getting laid off because a plant shut down.

                        Its a major problem that will eventually have to be resolved all I can do is try to teach my kids how to differentiate themselves and stand out amongst the crowd and make sure they know that its not all about just them.

                        Josh
                        This is all good Josh but people have to be willing to pay more to support their neighbors too, not just because they want better or equal quality to goods made overseas but because they recognize that it costs more to live here in this country. Problem is many people want it both ways, they want the cheapest goods and the most quality, which is all good, but they don't want to pay for the EPA regs and OSHA safety requirements and other things that contribute to higher manufacturing costs here int eh States. It's not all labors fault (union or non-union). The same tree-huggers who don't want factories running rampant in their states uncontrolled or unregulated (and rightly so in many cases) want cheap goods too. They want electric that is dirt cheap but they don't want power plants in their county, no matter what the fuel is.
                        ---------------
                        Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                        ---------------
                        “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                        ---------
                        "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                        ---------
                        sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                          All good observations guys. I didn't have much growing up and I worked as soon as I could to pay for some stuff. I kicked in towards the household too because I knew my parents could use the help. I made the effort to teach my kids some life lessons including how to talk to and treat others(respect), but God help me it was an uphill battle with my wife. You have these kids watching mindless crap on tv and going to school with kids whose parents never said No! Here too the problem is much bigger than just good parenting, you have to look at the whole issue of marriage. Divorce rates higher than fifty percent mean very few couples share the same values including raising children. It's real hard to make a point with your kid when your wife is undermining your authority, don't like it? Well you can try to reason, argue, puch something or leave. On the subject of buying things made here, I would pay more because in the end you pay one way or the other. We can't leave decisions like this in the hands of the general public because they will go for the cheap product and the cheap labor, it's human nature. Most people don't care about the success of the EPA and OSHA in keeping us safe and our environment clean. People need to be force fed common sense and caring, by nature most people are very selfish. These are all real big topics and while it's nice to share ideas, I can't imagine changing much without the government stepping in to help. Maybe if the government took over all tv broadcasting and only aired The Andy Griffith Show, no more reality tv? If they could find one program where the married couple was faithful, sober and working it might put out a good message and example to follow. What a mess.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                            Well everyone is making great points and see what is happening.My personal observation is most in construction trades are conservatives and see these problems,even union guys that are pushed to vote the democratic ticket see the conservative side..been there did union for a very long time and wont get into any arguements pro or con on union issues.
                            Most of my tools are american european or japanese made....it fried my butt when I got a makita drill/driver combo awhile back and it said made in china on it.I do have a few made in china tools and other things of course as its impossible to buy somethings that arent made there.I enjoy stargazing now near all scopes and acc are made in china even a german brand is made there now for somethings sold under that name.
                            For myself I started pushing a mower as soon as I was big enough to do it..7 or so I guess.My parents had set chores for all of us and we werent allowed to get a job outside of home.But home was either a working farm or apartments or a cafe and my parents hired no help so you can see us kids worked.My sisters were waitresses in the cafe they started that at 13..I did the dishes pealed taters etc besides hand mowing the acre around the place.On the farm my sisters milked and fed the critters of which there were many.I wasnt in highschool yet when I was painting fixing apartments etc.As for clothes we wore them out they got patched and we wore them some more.I learned to drive before I was big enough to operate a clutch properly..a tractor on the farm and boy did I get a belt a few times for umm messing up lol.Point being us kids worked at things which would be entirely illegal for kids to do now.
                            If things here in the states continue the course they are going this country will 1 day end up being like the third world or the super ultra conservatives will take over and close borders and restrict trade greatly.The status as is can not continue forever.
                            I'll be raising my near 2 year old son in the 3rd world.Its not perfect there and in many ways I'd prefer to do it here.However his mother much prefers to raise him there which will cause some problems for him in school.I'll admit the family values thing there,philippines, are much stronger then here in the states.However public schools there are a joke so it'll be private well checked out schools for him.If you have never been to the phils..its a very racist society..darker skinned filipinos are looked down on by the lighter skinned 1s..my wife does it all the time and I not so nicely correct her on saying such things...My wife is extremely light skinned and im near fully caucasian so our son is very pale.This will cause him problems in school as the dark skinned pick on light skinned and vice versa.One thing we totally agree on is he will learn to do chores,learn about business dealings,learn about doing phyiscal labor.The whole family values/work ethic/education/parenting things here are causing problems for the next generation I feel.
                            End of my rant lol
                            Sam

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                              Electile Dysfunction :
                              The inability to become aroused over any of the choices for president put forth by either party in the 2008 election year.
                              There's no cure.........



                              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The Politics of the Economy... Taboo Subject Here?

                                And I thought I was the only one who didn't have a clear and obvious choice for the next president

                                You guys are no help All you do is bring me down

                                Hillary: needs to separate herself from Bill before I'll give her special attention

                                Obama: not ready yet on many different levels

                                Romney: I like the message just not the messenger

                                Guiliani: what the hell happened to your campaign?

                                Huckabee: I can't support someone that doesn't believe in evolution

                                Edwards: Will only stay in it to be the spoiler and become a cabinet head

                                I will hitch my wagon to McCain and see how far he will take us. Yea he has given up on the borders but I figure anybody that really wanted to come here is already across anyways

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