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  • #61
    Re: Who Will Be The Next President

    Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
    Why should there be a death tax? If I work my whole life and amass property and nice savings why should that money be taxed again as i pass it on to my children? Is was taxed as it was made.
    The income was taxed as is was made. Capital gains were not. If you were to sell property used in a business, say your shop building/office, before your death (and not buy another and roll it over in a 1031 exchange) you would pay capital gains tax on its increased value and have to recapture any prior depreciation as ordinary income. If your estate sells that building after your death, the tax basis goes to 100%; there is NO capital gains and no recapture. It is actually a bonus, a tax reduction for your heirs. The inheritance tax puts a cap on the amount of this tax reduction.

    The figures I have are for 2000, it's gone up since then. In 2000 you as an individual could leave $675k without estate tax kicking in. A married couple could leave 1.35mil. Small businesses were exempt up to 4.1mil. Is your plumbing business going to be worth 4.1mil? Or the 8 or 10 mil the exemption will have risen to by your death? Should neither you nor your heirs pay something towards maintaing the legal system, infrastructure, education, and national security that provided the environment in which you could build this nearly 8 figure net worth company? THEY DON'T EVEN ASK YOU TO! You've got to be over 4.1 mil in 2000, by 2030 that will be over 10mil easy.

    The very very rich have little or no earned income. They have dividend income and capital gains. Income tax is a joke to them. What matters is capital gains tax on investments, which have never been taxed because they haven't sold them, or have rolled them into other investments when they did sell them. Without an estate tax, all that gain, made not by working but just because they were born with enough cash to invest, is passed on tax free to their heirs so they can own even more. They money just pools at the top.

    In 1970 the top earning 0.01% households in the US made 1% of all income. By 2000, that same top 0.01% made 5.1% of all income. That's a 412% increase. The share of the pie for the bottom earning 99.9%, 999 out of every 1000, decreased during the same period. It doesn't trickle down, it floods up.

    That 0.01% is 13,360 households. They will all fit in Yankee stadium. If you take the bottom earning people, to get enough of them to get to that same 5.1% of all income, your have the population of all states west of Iowa, plus Iowa. Tell me these 13360 households need a tax break. That is what repealing the inheritance tax gives their heirs. Not yours, not mine, not even the guy who dies with 3 rotorooter franchises and 100 stocked vans, free and clear. You, I, even he don't have enough to matter.
    This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Who Will Be The Next President

      Family farm my skinny a$$. This is wealth and greed on a level so high it's almost beyond me to see it, let alone understand it.
      This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Who Will Be The Next President

        Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
        Family farm my skinny a$$. This is wealth and greed on a level so high it's almost beyond me to see it, let alone understand it.
        Ace, you're talking about the Bush compound right? IT's just more of the same rich getting richer stuff, he's a multi millionaire and he pays less taxes than a working slob. That's who runs for president, rich folks! Imagine a guy or woman from the middle class winning the election? We would have a flat tax and things like shipping jobs off to the third world, illegals invading your town, the price of gas and going to war would be much more serious.

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        • #64
          Re: Who Will Be The Next President

          I think it is always funny how critical people are of the rich. All of the rich people I have met with the exception of a few, have worked hard and earned what they have. And when I say rich I do mean hundreds of millions or even billionaires. The sad thing is how it has been said that wealth does not trickle down. Hmm , last time I looked at my mortgage I did not own my house out right. I mean I do not even own all my service equipment or service vehicles out right. Oh ya its those greedy SOB who loaned me the money. Its funny how there are people who hate and despise those who are responsible for what they have. Next time you walk in your house , drive in you're car think about who really owns them. Trust me its not Wells Fargo, however it is the millionaire/billionaire who is willing to invest there money on the same people who despise them. How much of Warren Buffets money do you think is responsible for your success. The reason many of these so called greedy bstards are rich is because they were smart enough to see the difference. The difference between gaining wealth and making wealth. Unfortunately most people hope to gain wealth ( lottery, inheritance, 401 k so on) . These so called rich bstards make wealth and often times it through giving the people who take them for granted loans.
          THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Who Will Be The Next President

            Bill Cunningham has the nation listening to his every word right now.

            He's nourishing the national media like a kitten that hasn't been fed in days.
            Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Who Will Be The Next President

              Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
              I think it is always funny how critical people are of the rich. All of the rich people I have met with the exception of a few, have worked hard and earned what they have. And when I say rich I do mean hundreds of millions or even billionaires. The sad thing is how it has been said that wealth does not trickle down. Hmm , last time I looked at my mortgage I did not own my house out right. I mean I do not even own all my service equipment or service vehicles out right. Oh ya its those greedy SOB who loaned me the money. Its funny how there are people who hate and despise those who are responsible for what they have. Next time you walk in your house , drive in you're car think about who really owns them. Trust me its not Wells Fargo, however it is the millionaire/billionaire who is willing to invest there money on the same people who despise them. How much of Warren Buffets money do you think is responsible for your success. The reason many of these so called greedy bstards are rich is because they were smart enough to see the difference. The difference between gaining wealth and making wealth. Unfortunately most people hope to gain wealth ( lottery, inheritance, 401 k so on) . These so called rich bstards make wealth and often times it through giving the people who take them for granted loans.
              Crappy, I'm glad you can find humor in our economic situation. I'm upset that people with the wealth of our President have the right under IRS laws to pay a lesser percentage of their income than I do. I'm not endorsing a communist state where we share the wealth equally, but we could sure enforce paying the fair share to run the government . While some "rich" people have invested in our country and ecomony, plenty have invested elsewhere which is also their right. When it comes to giving you or us loans to better ourselves that's a double edged sword. Too many Americans who can't afford the cars and homes lenders are so generously giving them are now in trouble and we the tax payers will end up paying for their stupidty and the rich lenders greed. We don't need a "stimulus package", we the American public need secure jobs in exchange for an honest days work which is what we use to have years ago before we started exporting our work. India, China, Mexico and the rest of the third world must be having a good laugh at the American investors, wheter they are rich or small time investors chances are they are investing in someone elses economy and not ours. I would like to see the wealthy among us do even better in the future, give them incentives, increase their wealth, but for the sake of our existence demand that those incentives are based on investments in our economy. We should not be damming the rich or accusing the middle class or poor of wrong doing, now it's time to stop making more stupid mistakes and pull together. Stop the unsecured mortages, figure out how to reduce credit card debt and get people to live on their income and save for the future. Unless the rich folks you are so enamored with can buy and drive the hundreds or thousands of cars and trucks that are no longer being leased and bought by the folks who have lost their jobs, a change is needed.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Crappy, I'm glad you can find humor in our economic situation. I'm upset that people with the wealth of our President have the right under IRS laws to pay a lesser percentage of their income than I do. I'm not endorsing a communist state where we share the wealth equally, but we could sure enforce paying the fair share to run the government . While some "rich" people have invested in our country and ecomony, plenty have invested elsewhere which is also their right. When it comes to giving you or us loans to better ourselves that's a double edged sword. Too many Americans who can't afford the cars and homes lenders are so generously giving them are now in trouble and we the tax payers will end up paying for their stupidty and the rich lenders greed. We don't need a "stimulus package", we the American public need secure jobs in exchange for an honest days work which is what we use to have years ago before we started exporting our work. India, China, Mexico and the rest of the third world must be having a good laugh at the American investors, wheter they are rich or small time investors chances are they are investing in someone elses economy and not ours. I would like to see the wealthy among us do even better in the future, give them incentives, increase their wealth, but for the sake of our existence demand that those incentives are based on investments in our economy. We should not be damming the rich or accusing the middle class or poor of wrong doing, now it's time to stop making more stupid mistakes and pull together. Stop the unsecured mortages, figure out how to reduce credit card debt and get people to live on their income and save for the future. Unless the rich folks you are so enamored with can buy and drive the hundreds or thousands of cars and trucks that are no longer being leased and bought by the folks who have lost their jobs, a change is needed.
                I am not enamored, rather I was raised to respect those that work hard and take chances. I do not respect the blue collar worker any less as I am one myself plumbing/contractor. I just get sick of people crying over someone elses success. My Dad during his life was not worth hundreds of millions. Although he could have been . My father was one of the few American investors in Yugo of America. We all remember Yugo right, an inexpensive little car that wasn't made to well. The real story, is originally it was made well. Unfortunately lobbyist for the rich SOB American car manufacturers had laws implemented that made it illegal to import certain materials from Yugoslavia. To make it short it screwed my Dad and his business partners out of millions if not billions of dollars. Plus the loss of millions invested. You know what my Dad said after losing a substantial amount of his wealth. Oh well son you never look back. I do not disagree with what you are saying, I just do not begrudge anyone for there success. Oh, and the whole argument about how the rich do not pay there fair share, I remember being 7 years old and my Dad cursing up a storm on how much he had to pay out of his Christmas bonus in taxes. One check over 40,00.00 in taxes alone. I doubt you or anyone else has seen a tax bill like that for a whole year let alone one check. Now before anyone post how he was just lucky or anything like that , I can tell you that his success came with its drawbacks to. Like most successful people my siblings and I never saw him , because he was always working worrying not only about his welfare but the hundreds of employees that he was responsible for. The only time I remember my Dad crying was when he had to lay off men that had families. Just another point of view , thats all. Think about the wealthy people you know ,are they hard working ,honest people like yourself , probably. Why should they not be able to keep some of there money and benefit from the risk they take. I sit right that Joe blow can buy a one dollar lottery ticket and be an instant millionaire. I guess so , Oh well.
                Last edited by Crappy days; 02-27-2008, 05:22 PM.
                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                  Originally posted by Crappy days View Post
                  I am not enamored, rather I was raised to respect those that work hard and take chances. I do not respect the blue collar worker any less as I am one myself plumbing/contractor. I just get sick of people crying over someone elses success. My Dad during his life was not worth hundreds of millions. Although he could have been . My father was one of the few American investors in Yugo of America. We all remember Yugo right, an inexpensive little car that wasn't made to well. The real story, is originally it was made well. Unfortunately lobbyist for the rich SOB American car manufacturers had laws implemented that made it illegal to import certain materials from Yugoslavia. To make it short it screwed my Dad and his business partners out of millions if not billions of dollars. Plus the loss of millions invested. You know what my Dad said after losing a substantial amount of his wealth. Oh well son you never look back. I do not disagree with what you are saying, I just do not begrudge anyone for there success. Oh, and the whole argument about how the rich do not pay there fair share, I remember being 7 years old and my Dad cursing up a storm on how much he had to pay out of his Christmas bonus in taxes. One check over 40,00.00 in taxes alone. I doubt you or anyone else has seen a tax bill like that for a whole year let alone one check. Now before anyone post how he was just lucky or anything like that , I can tell you that his success came with its drawbacks to. Like most successful people my siblings and I never saw him , because he was always working worrying not only about his welfare but the hundreds of employees that he was responsible for. The only time I remember my Dad crying was when he had to lay off men that had families. Just another point of view , thats all. Think about the wealthy people you know ,are they hard working ,honest people like yourself , probably. Why should they not be able to keep some of there money and benefit from the risk they take. I sit right that Joe blow can buy a one dollar lottery ticket and be an instant millionaire. I guess so , Oh well.
                  Crappy, that is quite a story and certainly explains some of your opinions in this discussion. I don't disagree that those who are wealthy wheter or not they took risk should get to keep some of that wealth, but so should the middle class who worked so hard. I don't believe everyone does have the same opportunities because we do not have the same abilities, people are different. I only worked one job because I did want to be with my wife and children. I noticed that a lot of the older guys on the job who worked much more over time than I did were on their second marriage and had a lot of trouble with their kids. Right now I am much more concerned with our economy, the loss of jobs, mortgage and credit problems along with all the other stuff I've been repeating. Giving big business and the rich (whatever you consider them to be)more incentives will not necessarily mean an investment in our economy. A flat tax seems much more fair to me but it is not the most important thing on my list. Our government could give stimulus incentives two or three times a year but if we don't correct the serious problems that money will not help. Most people who are struggling paying for gasoline, heating fuel, food, other living expenses are not going to take that government give back and be good little consumers. They are going to pay for essentials and if not they are going to buy more foreign goods. A thousand bucks during these difficult times is not going to convince folks to redo a bathroom or remodel a kitchen. If they are smart they are thinking "I locked in my oil price at $2.50 a gallon this season, but next season it will be $3.50 or more, I better save up". Personally I think the price will be closer to $4.00 a gallon and so will the gasoline. The public needs alternatives, solutions, good ,sound. practical advice that will relieve some of their burden. Things like toursim in the USA have got to be hurting this summer, I absolutely refuse to go anywhere with a kid in college and the bills I'm paying. Getting back to the whole theme of this thread, I still can't see any of these candidates making much of a difference. I think we need a real think tank with the proper ideas and priorities to turn our country around. Maybe I sound like I'm overconcerned, that may be true because, I am!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Crappy, that is quite a story and certainly explains some of your opinions in this discussion. I don't disagree that those who are wealthy wheter or not they took risk should get to keep some of that wealth, but so should the middle class who worked so hard. I don't believe everyone does have the same opportunities because we do not have the same abilities, people are different. I only worked one job because I did want to be with my wife and children. I noticed that a lot of the older guys on the job who worked much more over time than I did were on their second marriage and had a lot of trouble with their kids. Right now I am much more concerned with our economy, the loss of jobs, mortgage and credit problems along with all the other stuff I've been repeating. Giving big business and the rich (whatever you consider them to be)more incentives will not necessarily mean an investment in our economy. A flat tax seems much more fair to me but it is not the most important thing on my list. Our government could give stimulus incentives two or three times a year but if we don't correct the serious problems that money will not help. Most people who are struggling paying for gasoline, heating fuel, food, other living expenses are not going to take that government give back and be good little consumers. They are going to pay for essentials and if not they are going to buy more foreign goods. A thousand bucks during these difficult times is not going to convince folks to redo a bathroom or remodel a kitchen. If they are smart they are thinking "I locked in my oil price at $2.50 a gallon this season, but next season it will be $3.50 or more, I better save up". Personally I think the price will be closer to $4.00 a gallon and so will the gasoline. The public needs alternatives, solutions, good ,sound. practical advice that will relieve some of their burden. Things like toursim in the USA have got to be hurting this summer, I absolutely refuse to go anywhere with a kid in college and the bills I'm paying. Getting back to the whole theme of this thread, I still can't see any of these candidates making much of a difference. I think we need a real think tank with the proper ideas and priorities to turn our country around. Maybe I sound like I'm overconcerned, that may be true because, I am!
                    Like I said Romney was my pick. He ran one of the most successful think tanks in America Bain Capital.
                    THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                      Crappy, Frank, Ace...
                      I'd just be happy if you three would use structuring, paragraphs.
                      LOL...you each have great points, but WOW, what a sea of text!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                        Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                        Crappy, Frank, Ace...
                        I'd just be happy if you three would use structuring, paragraphs.
                        LOL...you each have great points, but WOW, what a sea of text!
                        Sorry, I just type away.
                        THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          Ace, you're talking about the Bush compound right?
                          No... I'm talking about the spin on the 'death tax' debate. They say they want to eliminate inheritance tax to save family farms. They cannot provide even one example of a family farm lost to inheritance tax. Inheritance tax is a capital gains tax. Eliminating it is about eliminating capital gains tax, and funding the government entirely on the backs of wage earners. The thrust of recent tax policy is to move the financial burden of funding the federal government entirely onto those who get a paycheck, and remove it entirely from those who collect dividends and make investments. I think that is wrong. I think money earned by savvy investment and opportunity is at least as taxable as money earned by sweat.
                          This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                            Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                            No... I'm talking about the spin on the 'death tax' debate. They say they want to eliminate inheritance tax to save family farms. They cannot provide even one example of a family farm lost to inheritance tax. Inheritance tax is a capital gains tax. Eliminating it is about eliminating capital gains tax, and funding the government entirely on the backs of wage earners. The thrust of recent tax policy is to move the financial burden of funding the federal government entirely onto those who get a paycheck, and remove it entirely from those who collect dividends and make investments. I think that is wrong. I think money earned by savvy investment and opportunity is at least as taxable as money earned by sweat.
                            First of all, "death taxes" "inhertance tax" and "capital gains tax" are all terms of art and refer to three different things. A capital gains tax is on the increase in the value of property when you sell it. The inheritance tax is on the individual receiving the inheritance and is collected by the State, not the Feds. California, by the way, doesn't have an inheritance tax. The "death tax" is also referred to as the "estate tax". When you start expressing strong opinions, I think you should know what you are talking about -- especially when you are imposing those views on others. I'm not sure that writing a check to the U.S. Government for 55% of everything above $2 million isn't alot to ask. Normally, these aren't rich people. They are common, eveyday people -- perhaps even the ones that you are talking about - who built their estates on the sweat of their brow. They own their home and it has increased substantially in value over the years. They have carefully planned and saved money into savings and retirement plans. It isn't really that hard to reach that mark. I don't think writing a check to the government for one third of your wages is easy, but I've seen the checks written to the goverment for the "estate tax" and its a large sum of money that was hard earned by parents and loved ones.
                            Last edited by Crappy days; 02-27-2008, 10:05 PM.
                            THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                              estate tax, inheritance tax; whatever. I am talking abot federal tax, not state. The federal estate tax is in effect a capital gains tax as tax basis for an investment goes to 100% of current value at death. Agreed? no? pm? chat?
                              This is my reminder to myself that no good will ever come from discussing politics or religion with anyone, ever.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Who Will Be The Next President

                                Originally posted by Ace Sewer View Post
                                estate tax, inheritance tax; whatever. I am talking abot federal tax, not state. The federal estate tax is in effect a capital gains tax as tax basis for an investment goes to 100% of current value at death. Agreed? no? pm? chat?
                                The tax is about 55 % of everything over 2 million per person currently. That means if you die and your estate is valued at 3 million , your child/children will pay about 550 thousand. This is of course if you are single. There are plenty of farms through out the US that are valued far beyond 2 million or even 4 million. Most large farms have equipment that would be considered part of the estate. Think about the cost of a tractor for instance , some of these things run half a million alone . Farm equipment alone could be more than the 2 million allowed. Investments within a trust are treated the same. Just to let you know before we get into this to deep, my wife is an Estate Planning Attorney. I am very involved in her business as she is in mine.
                                Last edited by Crappy days; 02-29-2008, 12:47 AM.
                                THE GLASS IS ALWAYS HALF FULL

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