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  • #16
    Re: Give Them A Bill

    Oh, and the wire tap deal.... i wish people would do research on this crap before getting bent all out of shape and regurgatating what they heard on the nightly news or at local pub.

    Heres the deal, the old security bill allowed wire tapping before as well. It limited the government though to only tap lines OUTSIDE the US without a warrant. If the call hit US soil, it then needed a warrant. Well, as technology has changed, so did the rules, and this is what happened with the new bill. It ammended the old security intelligence act to include the need for warrantless wire taps on OUT OF THE COUNTRY CALLS! See, with new technology, a phone call is not as simple as it once was. Before, if you called someone on a land line, it went to the local switch box and then to the other phone. It all stayed local... but, now with all the digital systems, cell phones, and the internet, times changed. Due to huge telecom companies, such as AT&T, they have service world round. Now, in the old days, if terrorist 1 on hill top 1 in Afganastan called terrorist 2 on hill top 2 in Iraq, that call never left the middle east, and fell into the warrantless wire tap criteria. Now, fast forward to today, that same phone call takes a whole new meaning! If terrorist 1 is on a AT&T mobile phone, and calls a internet phone on terrorist 2's laptop PC.. guess what, that call just when through multiple locations ON US SOIL! So, know under the old law, this call can NOT be intercepted and wiretaped without a warrant. Why, because it hits US soil, even though the call is in Iraq or some other country.

    PLEASE, do some research before going off about things you dont even understand. The amendment was only to interecept calls outside of the US between known terrorist cells. If you actually dug into the bill, you would find that it has nothing to do with taping you here at your home. BUT, you will never hear that from good ol' CNN or MSNBC, or ABC... ect...

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    • #17
      Re: Give Them A Bill

      "for those who protest President Bush, take comfort in your ignorance. It must be nice."

      /sigh..it would be sooo nice to have an intelligent discussion without the personal attacks..

      Let me fill you in a little more of my ignorance,I was active duty US Army 1st Cav,from '91-'94...You know,during the last war we had with Iraq,during that time we also deployed to Bosnia,and the actual "Black hawk down" actually happened(it wasn't just a video game)..while I don't have any "confirmed kills"and never got blood on my boots...I think I know a little about the sacrifices of war.

      I also remember a time when the US was at war with another government,maybe not a bomb dropping CNN special 24hr coverage war...but a war none the less.We were pissed,because that government,liked to conduct covert surveillence on its citizens..use torture and intimidation to quell opposition,you know,to keep its people in-line......I bet the KGB used the old "If you have nothing to hide, why does a wiretap bother you?"line quite a bit back then too....However well intentioned,you believe those policies to be,they are a dangerous slope to get on...where does it stop?

      "The FBI and CIA are not recording mr. jones talking to his mistress while his wife is at work."--yeah tell that to Elliot Spitzer.

      One of few intelligent things I ever heard George Bush say,was in response to a question,it was along the lines.."How do you feel about the Iraqi citizens protesting the government ,the US has fought so hard to get in place?"His awnser.."It means progress,those people are now free to protest,that couldn't have happened under Saddam's reign.It's Democracy in action."..Yet when American citizens protest his decisions,they are called un-patriotic...Ignorant even...

      The Iraq war,clearly,did not need to happen.You don't send 4,000 people to thier death,for no good reason.70% of Americans believed Iraq was somehow responsible for the attacks on 9/11,why?The dis-information the Bush administration put out,in the run up to the War...Of course the Official reason we went to war was WMDs..err ooops....no WMDs...hhmm,well we're there to spread democracy?...hmm they don't like democracy so much...hmm...well now we're there fighting terrorism...amazing how there was none there before the war.I have no idea what should be done in Iraq now...its all just a shame.It really saddens me,I see those Cav patches over there...and it really strikes a chord.It just didn't need to happen....

      "Keep the amount of human losses in perspective. Roughly 4000 soldiers have died for our country in 6 years of fighting. In 2006, according to the national highway safety institute, 13,470 people died on america's roadways due to alcohol in one year. If human life is so fragile, why aren't people in the streets protesting alcohol? "

      Comparing War dead to DWI deaths...that seems like a nice way to trivalize thier sacrifice.

      :heavy sarcasm voice:4000 people die in the the world trade center..big deal,more people die every year choking on thier own vomit...I mean it was only 4000...why start a war?

      edit:damn I'm a slow typer,Alpha You hit the nail on the head with the oil prices....I tried to explain that in a differant thread i think.However Bush is alot more responsible then you let on,the war is driving up our debt too,as are the "Bush" tax cuts...and that rests solely on his shoulders

      One question though,have you read the entire patriot act?...or are you just going on hersay too?I have not read it myself,but when there are congressional hearing asking why,Ashcroft was being pressured into signing amendments to the wiretapping clauses,while he was heavily sedated in a hospital room at 2 in the mourning it raises questions.
      Last edited by UA22PLumberdude; 04-09-2008, 10:34 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Give Them A Bill

        Originally posted by Alphacowboy View Post
        I love the "blame the government" crowd....

        Heres a little snip I have on all this.

        You and I are the only ones to blame for the falling dollar and the national debt. Credit Cards, home morgages, car loans, anything you and I put on credit causes the national debt to rise. The federal reserve is who doles out the money to the banks, not Bushy. Greenspan was suppose to be some genious... hes a moron. He should have curbed this while he was still in the seat, but he didnt. They let the interest rates sit too low for too long. Then, when they hiked them, as the market got flooded with too many homes and not enough buyers, it was to late, and only made the crunch worse. This in turn has effected the cost of oil, as oil is traded on the value of the US dollar on the world market. Since we are "printing money" like its going out of style, we are only shooting ourselves in the foot. The future traders still see the US dollar not making a turn around in 9 months, and continue to price a barrel accordingly. The day that oil starts dropping below 65-70 bucks a barrel, will be the sign that finally, we are starting to accomplish some gorund on fighting our debt addiction... but its going to take a while. Bailing out home owners is only going to make things worse. Let the cookie crumble, it will feed the rest of the economy if you let it happen.

        The war.... ARGH, please, I wish people would get over this "Bush lied"! HELLO PEOPLE, he didnt jump on the satellite himself and take pictures over the past 12 years, the cameras on the satellites did, and they were run by so called military specialists. Not only was it US intelligence, but foriegn as well. If anything, it should be "Bush was lied to"! Do I agree with the War... to be honest, I am still hung on the whole thing. Some day, it will probably all make sense, but I am not one to pass judgement, as I am not a military specialist.

        OIL prices... see my above post.
        I'd like to add some comments to what you wrote and whose to say if we are all partly right? I agree that you and I are part of the current problem with our economy but we share this blame with big business that took jobs away to cheaper labor costs and less government restrictions. I do blame our legislators for allowing the trade deficit to get so far out of hand and for not passing some laws to protect our economy. I just think they could have done something to help the situation before it got out of hand. I don't see a way to turn our economy around unless we get more money into the hands of the middle class who can spend it to support smaller local businesses that employ other folks. Part of the turn around has to be lowering the price of fuel, it has too much of a negative effect on so many things that we need. Don't bail out the homeowners, let them and the lending institutions all crumble in the mess they made. Do something to control credit card debt and I think this is where the government has to step in and pass some laws. We have a smoke and mirrors economy and the magic trick is over. I don't blame President Bush for the war in iraq, I do think he was mislead. I just think that right now our country deserves and demands more attention than iraq. Neither of us are military experts, we can't predict what will happen if iraq fails. I think we can both figure out what will happen if our economy and country don't get fixed and that's my beef with the current situation. Didn't mean to step on your thoughts, just wanted to give my take on them. Regarding things like wire taps to prevent terrorism, fine. Certain other things have overstepped the bounds of national security. First of all if we are so concerned with security why are our borders still open? Get troops out there and if you want to be humane give them rubber bullets. How many more illegals can we support? Airline security, they make you take your shoes off and dump your soda or coffee but whose to say you didn't swallow some plastic explosives? Man we have a lot of problems.

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        • #19
          Re: Give Them A Bill

          All makes you wonder just how close "the end is" doesnt it?

          I voted for Bush, and I'll be the first to give him a hard time as well. But, dont rag on him over those tax cuts... believe what you want about them, but they affect you and I more than you think. I am a self employed construction worker, I make a very modest salary, and the wife has a very good job. We are not anything more than middle class, and the tax cuts would hit us anyway if they let them expire. Another thing, my clients are mostly middle to upper class. Guess who spends the most money on me? Its not the middle class. The upper class boys like to spend thier money, the more they pay in taxes, the less they spend on you and I for home inprovements to up thier nieghbors and friends.

          About the work going over seas, i do lay some blame on the corporations, but do you really blame them? I cant lay all the blame on them, I do blame you and I again. We have become a society of want and greed. But, we want it all, and we want it now, so, we go to wal-mart and rack up the credit cards on cheap junk, so we feel fulfiled! We dont buy quality stuff cuz, why, I can get more for less! So, the corporations see that the cheap stuff sells just as good if not 10 fold better than the quality stuff, so they hit the cheapo market. They then realize they cant hit that cheapo market price point with labor here in the US due to over taxation, high workers comp insurance, benifits, legacy costs, ext, so overseas it goes. They are just trying to make a buck, no different than you and I, just in larger quanities. I blame the "throw away" mentality of this country. We dont seem to care if something is cheap junk that breaks, we just buy a new one.

          The fact of the matter is we are getting taxed out of our minds, and so few see it. The IRS has us so blinded to what we pay in taxes, that I would bet that 90% of the people working in this country couldnt tell you if asked how much they paid in taxes last year. We self employed do, and its not fun. The smartest scheme the government ever came up with for collecting taxes was the automatic income deductions from your paycheck... you dont see it, you dont miss it. Corporations see it, and they are folding at the seems, and getting the heck out when they can. Heck, 3M just packed up its Optical division here in MN, moved to... China. THE ENTIRE DIVISION!!!! Closed its doors and got the heck out. The president of the division said that they needed to move to a more business friendly economy... IE, LOWER TAXES! This was a month after MN passed 6.7 BILLION dollars in tax INCREASES!

          Guys, I dont know what the fix is, but short of canning every single idiot in Washington and replacing them with someone who actually lives in the real world of the USA, I dont see how anything is going to get better anytime soon.


          Oh, and Eliot (idiot) Spitzer deserves everything he got. They didnt catch him because of a wire tap by the way, he got caught because he was an idiot and hid a bunch of money that raised flags. And I do believe that there was a warrant for the wiretap that was used, as it would have been illegal without it, even with the patriot act....

          What I dont understand is this, everyone crys foul and that Bush is the end game for all our problems, when in all reality, the president really doesnt have all that much power and say in things that effect you and I day in and day out. Your represenative in the house or senate does more than the president, and in many ways has more power (scary sometimes if you think about it) These morons are so disconnected from reality its frieghtening. They worry more about what light bulb is in your house than many other items that need attention. They love thier earmarks, and spend our money like a freshman college student with daddys high limit credit cards!

          I am not really defending Bush, i am simply stating that enough is enough, its time for this country to finally own up to its faults and except responsibility for its problems. Only you and I are really going to be able to fix it. If you put all your faith into the government fixing our problems... Lord help us all! We have enough laws and regulations, its time that some of them be tossed out the window!

          We have no one to blame but ourselves.

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          • #20
            Re: Give Them A Bill

            Alpha,
            Right on! Letting the tax cuts expire is really just a tax increase. With the tax cuts, federal revenues reached a record. The problem is NOT the tax cuts. The problem is SPENDING. The republicans and democrats both spent money like crazy; which is why the republicans have lost their credibility. That's why I voted for Ron Paul. I disagree with him on the War, but even though I support the war; I think that federal waste and intrusion is a much bigger issue.

            One thing that I want to bring up about the housing "crisis", if you bought your house a while ago you shouldn't have any crisis. Paper gains and paper loses don't affect your life. If you're like me and bought your house recently, and you ony paid what you could afford to pay (and you should have know what you can afford or not afford), you should be fine too; you just can't move if your house drops in value. Really most people who are going to be hurt are those who bought recently, but spent more than they could afford. Of course there will be people who have a life crisis like an injury, etc. who will lose their house; but that happens all the time. The government should not try to rescue people who got in over their heads, and especially not the banks who lent them money. People and banks need to take their lumps and move on.

            One more example of the government messing everything up is oil and gas. The reason that milk doubled in price over the last year or so is because the government decided that ethanol in our gas would be a good idea. If they just let the market decide, our gas would be gas; and our milk would not be $4.50 a gallon! If oil and gas get expensive enough, people will find better ways to produce it and use it. For example, the heavy oil in Venezuela is now cost effective; as are oil sands in Alberta. There is so much NIMBY going on in the US though that we don't explore all the places we can, and we have let our refining capacity fall to below where it can meet domestic demand.

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