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  • #16
    Re: Put up or shut up

    Originally posted by Service Guy View Post
    Corn or whatever grain is RENEWABLE...duh. It would be a great fuel source, VAsandy. The world WILL NOT go hungry from using corn as a fuel.
    I wouldn't be too quick to say that. My understanding is the prices have already gone up considerably for foods using corn due to diversion to fuel. You and I may not have a hard time with the price increase but some say the third world countries which rely on corn as a cheap source of food are already suffering.

    On another note I heard the entire fleet of trucks for the company which makes "Keetle Chips" now uses the old oil from making the chips as their fuel. It's not a big deal but if I buy chips from now on it will be from them to show support.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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    • #17
      Re: Put up or shut up

      Well at least we can always GROW more....unlike oil.
      Water Heater Reviews & Water Heater Information

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Put up or shut up

        You can make ethyl alcohol out of fermented garbage. Rather than putting so much into the sewage systems, it could be rotted. The problem is how to purify it at a reasonable cost. I have a gut feeling that ethyl (grain) alcohol might work better as a large scale heating fuel as you wouldn't need it as cleaned up as when used in part as engine fuel. In addition, I want to see mass use of sewer gas other than to see huge fires burn, but all the heat goes to waste. Why not make steam?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Put up or shut up

          Originally posted by Woussko View Post
          You can make ethyl alcohol out of fermented garbage. Rather than putting so much into the sewage systems, it could be rotted. The problem is how to purify it at a reasonable cost. I have a gut feeling that ethyl (grain) alcohol might work better as a large scale heating fuel as you wouldn't need it as cleaned up as when used in part as engine fuel. In addition, I want to see mass use of sewer gas other than to see huge fires burn, but all the heat goes to waste. Why not make steam?
          All good ideas but we need immediate and large scale solutions. I think the most reasonable answer right now would be to demand that iraq give us a break on the oil in exchange for the money and lives we've given to stabilize and build their country. Next we have to impliment a plan to transition away from traditional oil energies with timelines and incentives. We could probably build a pretty good industry of solar and wind alternatives and employ enough people to change our economy. Here we are throwing ideas around and sharing good intentions, but I don't get the feeling that our legislators are doing the same.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Put up or shut up

            My two younger brothers and my son-in-law all work for the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power as Steam Plant Operators. Their plant as a system which burns reclaimed methane gas from a local landfill. While the concept sounds great the fuel is so dirty it destroys the equipment. Now they have to blend it with 99% natural gas and 1% reclaimed Methane.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Put up or shut up

              what ever one comes up with the process has to be economical or cheaper than the current processes that are the standard,

              I have no problem with the switch grass and crop residue idea for making alcohol blended fuels, but currently there is not a economical process to do it, when it comes of "age" and if it is cheaper than corn the plants will switch or the corn plants will shut down as fast as there currently being built,

              SOLAR
              the same as with wind or solar, look at the cost of a solar panel, a 50 watt panel is between $350 and $500 so it is very expensive, I think I figured out if I wanted to do solar for my farm it would be nearly $200,000 for the panels, OK say there a 30 year life, that still breaks down to 6,666 (no interest, no inverter no batteries jsut panels),
              so just to buy the panels would be a pay out of $6,666 of expense a year, and if one put interest on it, at 7% my calculator say it would be 16,117.28 a year, just for panels, now my current electrical bill is about $1,800 a year. unless I was jsut wanting to spend money and BE "GREEN", is the only way to make it work,

              WIND
              lest do wind, depending on the system your looking at between $40,000 to $60,000 and that is for a grid tie unit and between 10 and 20 kw, now I live in an area where wind is feasible with about a 30 to 35% power factor, (meaning that if I put up a turbine I can expect it to produce full power about 30% of the time.

              lest jsut take the $50,000 lay out for the turn key grid tie system, and a 30 year life, if I have the money it breaks down to , $1,666 a year, so it is feasible if I have the moneys and it has no serious repairs in it 30 year life, (in this scenario I come up with a $134 a year savings).

              but if interest in added in @ 7%, it comes out to a $4029.32 a year one has to come up with.
              so the it would cost me an additional $2229.32 or my electrical cost would more than double. using wind and having to pay interest on the moneys used. and that is no maintenance or rebuilds, and wind machines have a reputation of need some maintenance and some repairs, for the most part.

              on solar many times scale of the system does little to reduce cost, but many times with wind larger scale will reduce costs per watt, considerable, as to beef some thing up usually cost less than more of the same.

              so I do not think it will be long when one sees in appropriate areas, where wind and hopefully solar will compete with coal, power, currently the economics is not there, unless there are large governmental grants or rebates or tax incentives that mask the cost of the systems or mandates of governmental origin. or if the government institutes some type of carbon tax on coal, then the cost of power will go up again for every one. thus probly pushing wind into a break even proposal.
              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
              attributed to Samuel Johnson
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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              • #22
                Re: Put up or shut up

                Originally posted by BHD View Post
                what ever one comes up with the process has to be economical or cheaper than the current processes that are the standard,

                I have no problem with the switch grass and crop residue idea for making alcohol blended fuels, but currently there is not a economical process to do it, when it comes of "age" and if it is cheaper than corn the plants will switch or the corn plants will shut down as fast as there currently being built,

                SOLAR
                the same as with wind or solar, look at the cost of a solar panel, a 50 watt panel is between $350 and $500 so it is very expensive, I think I figured out if I wanted to do solar for my farm it would be nearly $200,000 for the panels, OK say there a 30 year life, that still breaks down to 6,666 (no interest, no inverter no batteries jsut panels),
                so just to buy the panels would be a pay out of $6,666 of expense a year, and if one put interest on it, at 7% my calculator say it would be 16,117.28 a year, just for panels, now my current electrical bill is about $1,800 a year. unless I was jsut wanting to spend money and BE "GREEN", is the only way to make it work,

                WIND
                lest do wind, depending on the system your looking at between $40,000 to $60,000 and that is for a grid tie unit and between 10 and 20 kw, now I live in an area where wind is feasible with about a 30 to 35% power factor, (meaning that if I put up a turbine I can expect it to produce full power about 30% of the time.

                lest jsut take the $50,000 lay out for the turn key grid tie system, and a 30 year life, if I have the money it breaks down to , $1,666 a year, so it is feasible if I have the moneys and it has no serious repairs in it 30 year life, (in this scenario I come up with a $134 a year savings).

                but if interest in added in @ 7%, it comes out to a $4029.32 a year one has to come up with.
                so the it would cost me an additional $2229.32 or my electrical cost would more than double. using wind and having to pay interest on the moneys used. and that is no maintenance or rebuilds, and wind machines have a reputation of need some maintenance and some repairs, for the most part.

                on solar many times scale of the system does little to reduce cost, but many times with wind larger scale will reduce costs per watt, considerable, as to beef some thing up usually cost less than more of the same.

                so I do not think it will be long when one sees in appropriate areas, where wind and hopefully solar will compete with coal, power, currently the economics is not there, unless there are large governmental grants or rebates or tax incentives that mask the cost of the systems or mandates of governmental origin. or if the government institutes some type of carbon tax on coal, then the cost of power will go up again for every one. thus probly pushing wind into a break even proposal.
                Now here's a guy I like. He has concerns about the environment and waste, but instead of going off the deep end he took the time to DO THE RECEARCH, and he has shared the figures with us, the numbers just don't add up. Thanks BHD, very well done. As an aside. The best wind generators will produce enouth kw's to power about 12 homes and the cost of the generators is well over a million each.

                I have noticed that most of us on this thread, though the environment is a bit of a concern, we are mostly doing things that keep the money in our wallets. Once again, common sense wins the day.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Put up or shut up

                  Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                  Now here's a guy I like. He has concerns about the environment and waste, but instead of going off the deep end he took the time to DO THE RECEARCH, and he has shared the figures with us, the numbers just don't add up. Thanks BHD, very well done. As an aside. The best wind generators will produce enouth kw's to power about 12 homes and the cost of the generators is well over a million each.

                  I have noticed that most of us on this thread, though the environment is a bit of a concern, we are mostly doing things that keep the money in our wallets. Once again, common sense wins the day.
                  No argument that this is a man who does the math, but I do have a couple things I'd like to point out. First of all my electric bill has gone up more than 30% in the last year and if we continue to see double digit increases every few years even solar energy might work out to be cheaper in the long run. The other thing on my mind is more of a "what if" scenerio, right now the cost of alternative energy such as solar and wind is not cheap so many of us will not go into debt even though we are facing ever rising electric and oil bills. I'm thinking what if there was a major investment by our government and big business (not big oil) to build more manufacturing plants to make these alternative energy products, and a move to employ thousands to install them? Wouldn't the price come down? I agree with President Bush that we are addicted to foreign oil, so why not have some government assistance to encourage the switch to some of these alternative energies? Heck, we spent almost if not a trillion dollars in iraq it's about time we invested in the USA! If congress could pass the homeland security act and bypass some laws, they could do the same to get windmills put in kennedy's backyard too. We have to take action now and do what we can to save our economy and country, we can't be stopped in the courts by folks who don't like the looks of a windmill. The clock is ticking.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Put up or shut up

                    Solar has credits available, at least in california. It has come to the point that a solar system in a reasonably sunny area, with the credits, selling some power to the utility, and a 30 year loan will net you a small profit monthly(based on good credit for the loan), assuming you are an average power user. Energy hogs wil still have to pay.
                    The downside is that, in my opinion, the system adds zero realizable value to the home. I would not pay $20,000 more for a home that had a solar system, I dont think most people would. Which implies that this only makes sense if you plan on living in the home for the time it takes to pay off the loan. These systems need maintenance and repairs and do not last for more than 25 to 30 years without major replacement of components. Also, if you need your roof replaced, which you will, the panels need to be removed and reinstalled at substantial cost.
                    www.TheWoodCellar.com

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Put up or shut up

                      An excellent book on this subject is; "Environmental Overkill-whatever happened to common sense" by Dixie Lee Ray. Lots of footnoted research. It talks a lot about how so many things are blown out of proportion by the media and what things we need to pay attention to. I was surprised at her take on this as I remember her being very liberal when she was the gov of Washington.
                      btw, this book can be very hard to find.
                      ‎"I've never let my schooling interfere with my education" -Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Put up or shut up

                        Here in the PI and my home in Calif.Everything i flourescents except for the tool work lights.I drive a diesel pickup in the states an little 650cc car here.With both I try to limit the trips buying a lot at a time.Both places I try hard to limit monthly fuel expense to under 30 bucks in that I'm more successful here with the car tho gas costs much more here.
                        Veges here we mostly buy in the local wet market as they are cheaper and more locally produced.Meats we buy in town at the supermarket fish a combo of both.Here propane for the stove only in the states its heat and cooking and for hot water.The hot shower here is a 240 volt wall pack instant heater that great ,no other hot running water in the house here and thats the norm.A/C I near never use in the states here we use the 3/4 hp wall unit in the bedroom on is timer maybe 40 minutes for sleeping at night.Its a new unit that replaced 1 twice as big.
                        I'm still against using good crop lands to make fuel in general,sugar and some oil type plants seem to not effect the food supply much.Its been a great boon to farmers tho that finally can make a living off the land it that respect its good.
                        Here the price increases and shortages on food are much more obvious.Metro Manila area they are even guarding many rice trucks and the rice shortage is felt everywhere here.This week my mother in law came from the public market with only half a sack of rice.Only because thats all of that type the vendor she buys from had in stock.The big supermarkets are stocked to the hilt with rice selling it but the price is much higher then local markets,quality rice is harder to find Im told.The gov here say meat prices in general will go up 30% next week for many types.
                        The times are a changing rapidly.
                        Just a few minutes ago I stepped out back for a smoke..2 kids with rice type bags were sifting thru the burn pile outside the fence to pick up the nails and other metals to sell at the scrap shop...This is a middle income area too but the kids might be from down the road a bit in a squatters area or a lower income area.Last night The baby , housekeeper and I went up in the local market area..lots of beggars were working the street.
                        Sam

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Put up or shut up

                          Global warming is a joke. Do any of you honestly think that any of us can affect the natural, NORMAL cycles of the planet Earth? We as a whole have only been taking accurate, steady readings and documentation of temperatures since the early 1900's. How in the world do you expect to compare temperatures and say the planet that is supposedly warming at an alarming rate of a planet that is supposedly billions of years old when we barely know of the last 100 years??

                          It's one of the biggest scams around people. Just another way to scare people and get more of their money.


                          ------------

                          Personally I buy USA made when given the choice. I'm sick of cheap Chinese crap and just refuse to buy it if I can help it. Here, look at these videos: http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...y&search_type= this is what your money is funding.

                          Gas has gotten crazy expensive compared to what we're used to, but the USA is still cheaper than most of the world. If you look at how as is taxed you'll see that government makes way more off of gas than the oil companies do. I read something the other day and it was to the effect of over the past few years oil companies have made 600 billion off from sales, government has made over 1 TRILLION!!! Don't yell at the oil companies, yell at your elected officials sticking it to you every which way they can.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Put up or shut up

                            GilBeQuicl for President
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Re: Put up or shut up

                              GilbeQuick

                              Thank Christ someone can see through the bullsh*t, we paying $1.50 for a letre for petrol in Aus which would equal $6.00 a gal in the US, and you haven`t seen nothing yet with China and India buy up every barrel of oil they can get and pushing up the price.

                              Tony

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                              • #30
                                Re: Put up or shut up

                                Originally posted by GilBeQuick View Post
                                Global warming is a joke. Do any of you honestly think that any of us can affect the natural, NORMAL cycles of the planet Earth? We as a whole have only been taking accurate, steady readings and documentation of temperatures since the early 1900's. How in the world do you expect to compare temperatures and say the planet that is supposedly warming at an alarming rate of a planet that is supposedly billions of years old when we barely know of the last 100 years??

                                It's one of the biggest scams around people. Just another way to scare people and get more of their money.
                                I think it's important to note that the planet has heating and cooling cycles. We have been in a general warming trend for hundreds of years now. In general, the human species has prospered during a moderate climate period of the planet. These facts are found from research into past climatological data from ice cores in various places. The interesting part of it is that the ice cores from the different places reflect similar data.

                                However, the rate of this heating is now increasing at an alarming pace. It seems there is SOMETHING that is causing this rate to increase. It is true that we are dumping CO2 into the atmosphere in huge quantities. It is true that CO2 will cause temperatures to rise. These two facts are the ONLY things a real scientist will say when pinned down. The true cause/effect cycle of this huge planetary system is still largely outside of our understanding.

                                The important part is that the temperature is rising quickly. This is going to cause huge problems. Major ecosystems will begin to fail. Once this process begins, reigning things back in will be near impossible. Will we, the human species, figure out the changes and adapt? Chances are the species will survive. What we find for a planet on the other side, however, may be a very depleted system that is not capable of sustaining such diversity as we find today. This is all very speculative, however.

                                If you find one scientist that says definitively Humans are causing all the current climatological problems, you should question that persons qualifications. I am certainly no research scientist. I have been trained in Geology. I have read and researched much of these questions, and have found one truth. No one REALLY understands what's going on, but SOMETHING is definitely going on.
                                I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

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