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What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

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  • #16
    Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

    Originally posted by oldslowchevy View Post
    (side note to josh)

    man you are awesome i posted the same thread(cut and paste) on to 4 other forums that i belong to today, you are the only adminastrier of the 5 forums that did not remove the thread,........thank you ..... freadom of speech is alive and good here still.

    the other fourms either claim i was stirring up trouble, being a rasit, or both

    thank you for seeing that this topic is none of that, and keep up the great work!!!!
    we only start trouble when you say flat rate or old new york plumbers
    Charlie

    My seek the peek fundraiser page
    http://observatory.mountwashington.o...nal&fr_id=1040


    http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

    new work pictures 12/09
    http://public.fotki.com/hvachawk/

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

      Originally posted by oldslowchevy View Post
      (side note to josh)

      man you are awesome i posted the same thread(cut and paste) on to 4 other forums that i belong to today, you are the only adminastrier of the 5 forums that did not remove the thread,........thank you ..... freadom of speech is alive and good here still.

      the other fourms either claim i was stirring up trouble, being a rasit, or both

      thank you for seeing that this topic is none of that, and keep up the great work!!!!
      This is a heavy topic, no doubt. I'm just glad to see we can talk about such a touchy subject and give our opinions without bashing anyone else's. This shows a lot of respect out there.
      Buy cheap, buy twice.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

        Originally posted by HVAC HAWK View Post
        we only start trouble when you say flat rate or old new york plumbers
        Or the other 2 favorites. . .sectional and drum
        I love my plumber

        "My Hero"

        Welcome, Phoebe Jacqueline!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

          OSC asked how people not from the south feel about the flag. I hope it's ok for someone from the south to comment.

          First, racism is vile and ignorant. It makes not sense. I am not a racist. I am however a culturalist. I confess I do turn my nose up at certain destructive, obnoxious, behavior. It doesn't matter your color and I will call you out on it.

          Several of my ancestors were slave owners before the War Between the States (It was not a civil war, the south was not trying to take over the existing federal government, my grandmother would call it the War of The Northern Aggression). My G.G.G.Grandfather was a well known portraitist in Columbia S.C., he owned upwards of 15 slaves. His son, a surgeon, served the Confederacy in Arkansas. I have his Colt pistol.

          Many other of my ancestors were dirt poor farmers with no slaves from Missouri, Tn, N.C. Ms. Ark.
          I also have ancestors from Ohio and Penn.
          I can name at least 6 who faught in the Revolutionary War.

          So to boil it down, I have a perspective which is this: The U.S. lost her best during that war. Both sides devastated. It showed our worst and our best. I'm proud of those who had the balls to fight for what they thought was right. God will judge their motives. When I see the Confederate flag I see a rich history which I don't want to see lost to revisionism, hate, and ignorance. The flag doesn't represent a group of states anymore. It speaks of loyalty, patriotism, deprivation, courage, and humility of individuals.
          That's mnsho (my not so humble opinion)
          "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

            Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
            OSC asked how people not from the south feel about the flag. I hope it's ok for someone from the south to comment.

            First, racism is vile and ignorant. It makes not sense. I am not a racist. I am however a culturalist. I confess I do turn my nose up at certain destructive, obnoxious, behavior. It doesn't matter your color and I will call you out on it.

            Several of my ancestors were slave owners before the War Between the States (It was not a civil war, the south was not trying to take over the existing federal government, my grandmother would call it the War of The Northern Aggression). My G.G.G.Grandfather was a well known portraitist in Columbia S.C., he owned upwards of 15 slaves. His son, a surgeon, served the Confederacy in Arkansas. I have his Colt pistol.

            Many other of my ancestors were dirt poor farmers with no slaves from Missouri, Tn, N.C. Ms. Ark.
            I also have ancestors from Ohio and Penn.
            I can name at least 6 who faught in the Revolutionary War.

            So to boil it down, I have a perspective which is this: The U.S. lost her best during that war. Both sides devastated. It showed our worst and our best. I'm proud of those who had the balls to fight for what they thought was right. God will judge their motives. When I see the Confederate flag I see a rich history which I don't want to see lost to revisionism, hate, and ignorance. The flag doesn't represent a group of states anymore. It speaks of loyalty, patriotism, deprivation, courage, and humility of individuals.
            That's mnsho (my not so humble opinion)
            Slim, that was a real nice post. Well thought out and made some valid points from your perspective. The only downside I see with displaying the Confederate Flag publically is that depending on the mindset of the folks displaying it, the message could be a very destructive one having nothing to do with what you mentioned. Too bad there isn't a movement to better honor those who proudly fought and died and at the same time heal the disgrace and suffering caused by slavery. How do we end the aftermath of the Civil War? We are one nation, one American people and it would be so good for all of us if we could believe that.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Slim, that was a real nice post. Well thought out and made some valid points from your perspective. The only downside I see with displaying the Confederate Flag publically is that depending on the mindset of the folks displaying it, the message could be a very destructive one having nothing to do with what you mentioned. Too bad there isn't a movement to better honor those who proudly fought and died and at the same time heal the disgrace and suffering caused by slavery. How do we end the aftermath of the Civil War? We are one nation, one American people and it would be so good for all of us if we could believe that.
              Oh, I agree with you. I think it (the conf. flag) should probably be relegated to reenactments and history exhibits. The Confederacy is 140 yrs defunct. No one needs to be pledging allegiance to it. Not to say that any individual should not be able to display it for any reason he/she chooses. And let me be clear, though I'm all for states rights, I fall into the Alexander Hamilton camp of a strong national government (oh,if only it were still constitutionally bound) and believe it would have been a disaster if the south had been allowed to seceed. But the government shouldn't stifle free speech (within limits, of course) or free association.

              I don't agree we are one nation anymore. We are a nation with at least one more working from the inside to change its borders and culture. And then there are the race baiters, black and white and brown who try to keep the rest of us suspicious of each other.
              Many, many people could be welcomed. But you cannot place another nation's flag ahead of our own and when you start out with an organization named "The Race", La Rasa, it doesn't portend well for peace and happiness.
              Last edited by SlimTim; 05-25-2008, 08:11 PM.
              "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
                Oh, I agree with you. I think it (the conf. flag) should probably be relegated to reenactments and history exhibits. The Confederacy is 140 yrs defunct. No one needs to be pledging allegiance to it. Not to say that any individual should not be able to display it for any reason he/she chooses. And let me be clear, though I'm all for states rights, I fall into the Alexander Hamilton camp of a strong national government (oh,if only it were still constitutionally bound) and believe it would have been a disaster if the south had been allowed to seceed. But the government shouldn't stifle free speech (within limits, of course) or free association.

                I don't agree we are one nation anymore. We are a nation with at least one more working from the inside to change its borders and culture. And then there are the race baiters, black and white and brown who try to keep the rest of us suspicious of each other.
                Many, many people could be welcomed. But you cannot place another nation's flag ahead of our own and when you start out with an organization named "The Race", La Rasa, it doesn't portend well for peace and happiness.
                I hope I don't get too off track with this but I agree that there are those who are imposing their will and working against our nation from within. I don't agree with ethnic or any other pride taking importance above your status as an American if that is what you are. I see nothing wrong with celebrating special holidays and maintaining family traditions, but if you are American, then America must come first in your heart and mind. Our language is English and even if you are not christian we are "One Nation Under God". I can't understand how the mention of "God" and religious symbols can be removed from our history books and public places. History must remain intact and accurate or else it becomes something other than truthful.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post

                  Our language is English and even if you are not christian we are "One Nation Under God".
                  As stupid as this sounds our language is not officially English, the liberal senators shot that vote down last year. The United States of America unfortunately does not have an official language.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                    Originally posted by SlimTim View Post
                    Oh, I agree with you. I think it (the conf. flag) should probably be relegated to reenactments and history exhibits. The Confederacy is 140 yrs defunct. No one needs to be pledging allegiance to it. Not to say that any individual should not be able to display it for any reason he/she chooses. And let me be clear, though I'm all for states rights, I fall into the Alexander Hamilton camp of a strong national government (oh,if only it were still constitutionally bound) and believe it would have been a disaster if the south had been allowed to seceed. But the government shouldn't stifle free speech (within limits, of course) or free association.

                    I don't agree we are one nation anymore. We are a nation with at least one more working from the inside to change its borders and culture. And then there are the race baiters, black and white and brown who try to keep the rest of us suspicious of each other.
                    Many, many people could be welcomed. But you cannot place another nation's flag ahead of our own and when you start out with an organization named "The Race", La Rasa, it doesn't portend well for peace and happiness.
                    The south was supposed to be allowed to secede, that was a right granted in the constitutional congress. I dont agree but it was a right afforded to each state.

                    If you live here, obey the laws, be loyal to this country, and be a good citizen otherwise go home.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                      The following contains language that might not be appropriate for persons under 16 years of age. There are no vile cuss words or sexual innuendos. The "N" word is used twice contextually, without constraint as the incident actually happened. If the submission is edited or disallowed I will certainly understand.

                      Tom

                      To me, from the North, the Confederate Flag represents slavery. There was very little talk of secession in our history classes. The Civil War was fought, we were taught in school, (I graduated from high school in 1964 so ideally things have changed) because the South was in favor of slavery. Then, after the exam for the chapter, you forgot about it. It was history. Slavery didn't exist any more.

                      But I had a personal internal coflict. At a dinner party at our house in 1956 or 1957, I was ten or eleven years old, I overheard a woman from the South make a strange statement. The woman was, at the time, at least in her mid 70s and quite possibly older. Her entire family, the males, had been lawyers and were 'Old Money' from the south. Her statement was, "I don't know what all this talk is about equal rights. Why, we even buy shoes for our little doggies." I remember that statement as though it was said yesterday. It didn't dawn on me until later in High School that the woman was talking about the 'employees' if you will, that worked their farm. But, with all my heart, I believe the woman really believed her statement. She didn't know what all the talk was about. She was a sheltered Southern Belle. Racism was already institutionalized but I had never heard about it. Then in college I was forced to take a class in, 'Classism, Racism and Sexism.' What an eye opening class that was for me. Later, in my undergraduate career, I elected to take classes in Africana Studies, Black Psychology and Black Literature. All additional eye opening courses.

                      One of my pals is a retired surgeon. He has told me of times during the 50s when, with the slightest hint of something physically improper, Dr.s were encouraged to sterilize Black women. Their menstrual cycle off a little bit. Sterilize! Heavier than normal flow. Sterilize! The Civil War officially ended in 1865 but here our country was in the late 50s sterilizing Blacks because they were Black. Institutional Racism!

                      And, make no mistake about it, Institutional Racism is alive and flourishing today. I was in an Exxon station in Henderson, North Carolina a few years ago grabbing snacks. Behind the counter, waiting on customers, were Black kids. In another part of the store this loud mouth creep and his buddies were talking about ...the Goddam niggers... this and ...the Goddam niggers... that. Their conversation was certainly loud enough for the Black kids to hear. The response from the Black kids - nothing. They kept on serving the other customers in the store as if nothing at all was amiss. I was shocked and, I will admit, to this day I am ashamed of myself for not taking some action. But I didn't. I walked out, got into my trailer truck and aimed it North. Now we aren't talking about 1865 or 1958 this was a few years ago probably 2004 or 2005.

                      The Confederate Flag to me represents slavery, and slavery led to institutional racism. How long can anyone as a person or as a race take this kind of abuse? Look up and read the poem, 'Incident' by Countee Cullen. I often think of another poem this one by Langston Hughes where asks the question, "What happens to a dream deferred?" Then he gives the answer, "It explodes."

                      Tom
                      Last edited by Tom W; 05-25-2008, 11:13 PM. Reason: wrong poem name, misspelled poet's name

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                        How ironic.
                        I've seen racially mixed groups of kids call eachother the "N" word here in the north to greet eachother. (Gawd, I can't wait for rap to go out of style)
                        Seems to have gone full circle to where it's so cliche it doesn't matter.
                        Then your story tells something completely different south of here.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                          Originally posted by Tom W View Post
                          The following contains language that might not be appropriate for persons under 16 years of age. There are no vile cuss words or sexual innuendos. The "N" word is used twice contextually, without constraint as the incident actually happened. If the submission is edited or disallowed I will certainly understand.

                          Tom

                          To me, from the North, the Confederate Flag represents slavery. There was very little talk of secession in our history classes. The Civil War was fought, we were taught in school, (I graduated from high school in 1964 so ideally things have changed) because the South was in favor of slavery. Then, after the exam for the chapter, you forgot about it. It was history. Slavery didn't exist any more.

                          But I had a personal internal coflict. At a dinner party at our house in 1956 or 1957, I was ten or eleven years old, I overheard a woman from the South make a strange statement. The woman was, at the time, at least in her mid 70s and quite possibly older. Her entire family, the males, had been lawyers and were 'Old Money' from the south. Her statement was, "I don't know what all this talk is about equal rights. Why, we even buy shoes for our little doggies." I remember that statement as though it was said yesterday. It didn't dawn on me until later in High School that the woman was talking about the 'employees' if you will, that worked their farm. But, with all my heart, I believe the woman really believed her statement. She didn't know what all the talk was about. She was a sheltered Southern Belle. Racism was already institutionalized but I had never heard about it. Then in college I was forced to take a class in, 'Classism, Racism and Sexism.' What an eye opening class that was for me. Later, in my undergraduate career, I elected to take classes in Africana Studies, Black Psychology and Black Literature. All additional eye opening courses.

                          One of my pals is a retired surgeon. He has told me of times during the 50s when, with the slightest hint of something physically improper, Dr.s were encouraged to sterilize Black women. Their menstrual cycle off a little bit. Sterilize! Heavier than normal flow. Sterilize! The Civil War officially ended in 1865 but here our country was in the late 50s sterilizing Blacks because they were Black. Institutional Racism!

                          And, make no mistake about it, Institutional Racism is alive and flourishing today. I was in an Exxon station in Henderson, North Carolina a few years ago grabbing snacks. Behind the counter, waiting on customers, were Black kids. In another part of the store this loud mouth creep and his buddies were talking about ...the Goddam niggers... this and ...the Goddam niggers... that. Their conversation was certainly loud enough for the Black kids to hear. The response from the Black kids - nothing. They kept on serving the other customers in the store as if nothing at all was amiss. I was shocked and, I will admit, to this day I am ashamed of myself for not taking some action. But I didn't. I walked out, got into my trailer truck and aimed it North. Now we aren't talking about 1865 or 1958 this was a few years ago probably 2004 or 2005.

                          The Confederate Flag to me represents slavery, and slavery led to institutional racism. How long can anyone as a person or as a race take this kind of abuse? Look up and read the poem, 'A Visit To Old Baltimore.' I often think of another poem this one by Langston Hughes where asks the question, "What happens to a dream deferred?" Then he gives the answer, "It explodes."

                          Tom
                          Wow Tom, I had no idea how well educated you were. When I was ten years old we were visiting family in Daytona Beach Florida. While at the beach one day a couple bus loads of Black folks arrived and the life guards proceeded to shut the water to the showers and bathrooms. Living up North all my life the racism is just as common but more subtle. When I first heard the term "driving while Black", I could not believe it, what a fool I was! Many groups have been denied housing, jobs and many things most of us take for granted. I like to think of our country as a work in progress and I pray we keep making strides towards the equal rights and freedoms our forefathers envisioned and our fallen heroes died to protect.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What does the Confederate flag mean to you?

                            Frank,

                            My intent in listing the courses was to explain how I came to more fully understand the insidiousness of institutional racism. I should have been more clear. Sorry.

                            I didn't see the year listed when you were visiting Florida but I suspect it was in the not too distant past. Sad isn't it that people are still denied the things you list?

                            Every place in the world people's wishes, hopes and dreams are pretty much the same as yours and mine. They might vary somewhat based on the influences of physical location but people in Japan, The Netherlands, Ghana and everywhere else all think pretty much alike.

                            I could go on and on about this but it is probably best I stop, at least for now.

                            Tom

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