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  • #31
    Re: McCain for President?

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    Just imagine what would happen if we were an oil producing country.

    Mark
    We don't have the resources. Even if we did now, we sure wouldn't forever. So better yet, imagine if we stopped depending on dinosaur crap and harvested renewable and less damaging energy. Then we could tell the middle east to solve their own problems, bathe in their oil if they want to and get the world off their economic teet. Sure would make them less dangerous.

    Ever heard of Pickens? His plan can also be implimented in 10 years and have a much larger effect. Not as sexy as blaming environmentalists though.
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science...lan/index.html

    Or we can continue to do what we have been doing for the last century like it is the only solution.

    Eli
    Last edited by woodenstickers; 07-22-2008, 06:33 PM.
    A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

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    • #32
      Re: McCain for President?

      We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: McCain for President?

        Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
        We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?
        I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: McCain for President?

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.
          See Franki I knew you still liked me

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: McCain for President?

            Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
            We definitely need to use all sources possible for energy, but that is a long way away. Do you make everyone buy new cars? New heating systems? If we can't afford gas what makes you think people can afford new vehicles that run on these alternate fuels?
            Also, there is only so much you are going to get from that. My heating system is 87% efficient; there isn't a whole lot more you can squeeze out of a gallon of diesel fuel. And getting heat from a remote location to your house really means you need some kind of fuel (in practice, diesel, NG, or LP) or electricity. The marginal electricity generation is all burning something to make heat, converting it into steam, then electricity. When the fuel is at your house, it is more efficient because you can skip all those steps in the middle.

            Also, with respect to alternative fuels; until they can economically compete with oil it is fine for someone to buy them because they want to as a luxury; but I don't think the government should subsidize them. The government does a pretty bad job of betting on technologies. Ethanol subsidies are one of the reasons that milk has doubled in price.

            Even if we can't elminate our dependence on foreign oil, the prices of commodities are very sensitive to the marginal cases. If we can increase supply relative to demand, then the price should hopefully drop disproportionately until they balance out.

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            • #36
              Re: McCain for President?

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              I totally agree with you. Good ideas, progressive ideas are fine if you can figure a way to make them affordable. I laughed when some one suggested people simply move closer to where they work in order to save, that is completely out of the realm of possibility that I can't begin to say why. How come France can use safe, clean Nuclear energy but we can't? Is the problem the environmentalists or the sloppy work done in the past? I think one thing that would help all these alternative energies getting put into use would be bigger rebates, tax breaks and any other incentives you can think of. I can get solar panels up and running for roughly $50,000 with a gov't rebate of roughly $15,00. That's still out of my price range but if the rebate was 50% or more it would get me and plenty of others giving it serious thought. I also think the more popular these installs become the lower the price, more installers, better production methods? Switching my car from gasoline to natural gas is not an option, I can't afford the conversion and my car is eighteen years old! Do you agree that any significant number of people who buy hybrid cars, supplement with solar energy and other alternative energies will help all of us somehow? Action. I enjoy the conversation but these high bills at the pump, heating fuel deliveries and food store are hurting.
              I feel you Franki but drilling just simply isn't going to help a bit. Even the proponents are saying so. It is all perception. They made mistakes that have made it hurt and now are using that pain to manipulate us. It is not even CLOSE to be supported by the facts.
              Follow that link I posted. It is a Billionaire Oil man who is putting his money into a plan to build wind farms. He says it will take 10 years to replace 20% of the nations power, then use the natural gas to fuel cars. Of course not everyone will go out and buy a conversion--probably it would happen as people would have bought new vehicles anyway--but the reduction in demand on oil would be greater than the drilling proposals, even if they all work out and in the same amount of time.

              And this is just with HIS project in Texas. If we put our effort into a REAL solution instead of gambling on digging more holes we might actually really make a difference. Otherwise we are buying snake oil from the same salesmen.

              And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.
              A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: McCain for President?

                Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                I feel you Franki but drilling just simply isn't going to help a bit. Even the proponents are saying so. It is all perception. They made mistakes that have made it hurt and now are using that pain to manipulate us. It is not even CLOSE to be supported by the facts.
                Follow that link I posted. It is a Billionaire Oil man who is putting his money into a plan to build wind farms. He says it will take 10 years to replace 20% of the nations power, then use the natural gas to fuel cars. Of course not everyone will go out and buy a conversion--probably it would happen as people would have bought new vehicles anyway--but the reduction in demand on oil would be greater than the drilling proposals, even if they all work out and in the same amount of time.

                And this is just with HIS project in Texas. If we put our effort into a REAL solution instead of gambling on digging more holes we might actually really make a difference. Otherwise we are buying snake oil from the same salesmen.

                And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.
                I have posted here before that unless there were guarantees of cheaper prices we would simply be giving big oil higher profits. I also posted that we need solutions now and in the near future in addition to ten to fifteen years out. Building nuclear power plants properly takes years as well ,but the longer we stay in limbo doing nothing but talking and paying these outrageous prices for fuel and associated products and services the further we will be from any relief. I have reservations regarding our environment and drilling for oil but what is our government offering us in the way of a fix for this problem? I am hoping to get a woodburning stove or fireplace insert before the coming Winter because I can't afford the price of heating oil and I don't want to freeze. I'm concerned about my bad back and feeding wood throughout the long cold season. I wonder how the air quality will be if more and more people use wood as a source of heat? Don't know how accuracte this quote is but "A government by the people and for the people", how true is that? Our legislators are all insulated from the problems of working class people, they don't care about the price of gasoline, diesel, heating oil or food! Democrat or Republican, in my opinion they do not care enough to come together for the better good of " We The People". Not to bash McCain but recently he mentioned something about a money award for some breakthrough battery technology. I have news for him, the Auto industry (GM) has all the breakthrough technology to make a plugin car with a three hundred mile range. Obama, McCain, take your pick, I'll be collecting wood and driving as little as possible.

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                • #38
                  Re: McCain for President?

                  Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post

                  And BTW, if you think oil production helps prices at the pump, why is Canada still paying more than us? They sell us more oil than S.A. It's a lie. I'll say it again-It won't do anything but make rich guys richer.
                  Well, Canada gave(and still give) the oil away at firesale prices under NAFTA...



                  And yes, as always, the Stickers is correct.

                  There should be no political wrangling on this forum.....just listen to the Stickers.......what he says is true.

                  On another note, as of today Obama says he wants to pull out of Iraq and transfer the troops to Afghanistan where, as he puts it, "the real war on terror is."

                  Yeah, that is correct Mr. Obama, but I don't think there's any oil in Afghanistan....
                  Last edited by tinmack; 07-22-2008, 10:17 PM.
                  I'm on "The List" and I love it!!

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                  • #39
                    Re: McCain for President?

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Not to bash McCain but recently he mentioned something about a money award for some breakthrough battery technology. I have news for him, the Auto industry (GM) has all the breakthrough technology to make a plugin car with a three hundred mile range. Obama, McCain, take your pick, I'll be collecting wood and driving as little as possible.
                    Rick posted a link to the Tesla a few months ago and since then I had the opportunity to see one and read about them. In fact, when looking for jobs on Craigslist I saw that they are hiring a shop manager. Anyway, it is a super car, meaning in the realm of Lamborghini and Ferrari in terms of looks and speed. And it really is. It is gorgeous and fast as hell. The sticker price is $109,000--obviously out of reach for most, but their point was to make a car that competes with cars three and four times as expensive--it's their flagship. It goes 220 miles on a charge, plugs into a wall socket and has a very simple electric motor. 0-60 in under 4 seconds. 256 mpg equivalent in energy usage and less than $.02 a mile.

                    http://www.teslamotors.com/

                    They are planning to come out with a sedan that will be competitively priced. They are really trying to make it happen, not be a car for rich folks to feel good about themselves. So we start using wind power to make our electricity, start using electricity to run our cars and tell the OPEC countries to start being more frugal. Then WE are the wave of the future again, like the US used to be. We are the owners of the new technology, we are the ones who are changing the world again.

                    This country has a long history of being the cutting edge of what the world will be. Why are we still doing what we have been doing forever? Do we really need to get every last drop out of the ground, really need to live within eye-sight of oil derricks off of our beautiful coast?

                    The same people who bought the technology for the electric plug in car then shelved the project until now are the ones who are telling us we have to drill. The same people who told us Saddam needed to be taken out before he nuked us , it would take 6 weeks, it would be paid for with Iraqi oil are the ones telling us we have to open up our coastline to their former colleagues. Funnily enough, those same colleagues are now getting no-bid contracts for oil in Iraq. All in the final months of the administration. I wonder when they will start paying back the American people for all of the Iraqi infrastructure that oil was promised to pay for?

                    Obama is a politician too. One thing they have all proven to us by now is that we are in this for ourselves. The government will not act in our interests--we don't have enough money to buy them.

                    As for now, I don't know what to tell you Franki. I really do hear you about how this is going to affect you this winter. It is academic to me at the moment only because I am lucky, but I know it is much more than that to you--not in the future, right now. It kind of drives it home to me. We are being robbed and abused by the people who we elect.

                    Eli
                    A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: McCain for President?

                      well, the truth is is we sit around and wait for the politicians to solve the problem, we'll be living in caves again and freezing our collective asses off. Industry has and always will provide the next step. We just need to either support or boot them in the butt. Which ever has the desirable effect. I for one, faced with a $ 12,000 heating bill, have installed a Viessmann Vitolig pellett burning boiler beside my Viessman oil boiler. This puppy should cost me roughly 1/4 what the oil boiler costs to run. It is expensive, but will pay for itself in slightly under 2 years if oil stays at or continues to rise in price. And though there is zero to slightly negative pay back for hydronic for the average customer. I get the parts at a discount so I will most likley put a couple panels on the roof also.
                      sigpic

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                      • #41
                        Re: McCain for President?

                        Definition of confusion?
                        Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.

                        I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

                        I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: McCain for President?

                          Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                          Definition of confusion?
                          Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.

                          I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

                          I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.
                          Me, NHM, CPW have them out numbered. Truth is that I dont believe the best canidate is running.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: McCain for President?

                            Originally posted by DuckButter View Post
                            Definition of confusion?
                            Put Frankie, CPW, MP, Woodenstickers & NhMaster in a room and ask 'em to tell us who the best candidate is.

                            I do like the direction the chat took...the Tesla was posted by OSC about a month back...it claims a range of 220 miles on one charge.

                            I have to learn more...too good to be true comes to mind, plus a six figure price tag to boot.
                            It also says 3.5 hours for a full charge cycle and that it will run on less than that. I have seen two of these on the street now. One was parked in the lot by my old warehouse. We were neighbors with a company that ships expensive cars for their owners so they can drive them when they get to the west coast. There were always Ferraris, Lamborghinis bentlys Mazzeratis and Lotus sitting there (and LOTS of doughnut marks in the parking lot). The Tesla was beautiful.

                            Then just last week I saw one driving up the hill by my house--it was so quiet I couldn't believe it.

                            I am not suggesting that anyone buy one of these, but it just proves that it can be done. I am not sure what the maintenance costs, or battery costs, or cost to the environment with battery disposal would be--I'm sure there are many downsides--but the growing pains are going to have to come sometime.

                            If the claims are accurate-$.02 per mile that would be a savings of about $.30 per mile over my silverado at the price I filled up today $4.39pg. If I drive an average of 12,000 miles a year (more than that with my last job but probably about right for my new one--and I don't need the utility of the pick up for this one either) that will save me $3762.85 a year in fuel costs. I hope to get at least 10 years out of any new car I buy--still got 5 to go on the silverado if I can afford it, so assuming gas stays the same price as it is now a sticker price of $37-38,000 more than I would usually spend pays for itself. I spent $34,000 on the truck.

                            Average car price including financing in 2005 was about $28,000. Add the $38,000 and you are looking at $66,000 being a feasable price for a sedan that would save you this kind of money over it's life. That is a long way from $109,000, but then cars in the class of the Tesla Roadster are easily triple that.

                            Anyway, back to McCain. Today he tried to claim that the drop in oil prices was due to the increased talks about offshore drilling. Nobody--not even the Whitehouse is claiming that to be the case and all the experts say it is because of decreased demand and market correction. He is proving himself to be more and more of a politician every time he speaks.

                            And Obama won't accomplish anything. They are both hot air.


                            Eli

                            Just for the record I told a left leaning buddy she was full of it when she brought up McCains 100 years in Iraq quote as proof that he wants to wage war for 100 years like that moveon.org commercial. If anyone brought that up here I'd tell them the same thing.
                            Last edited by woodenstickers; 07-23-2008, 09:39 PM. Reason: can't spel
                            A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

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                            • #44
                              Re: McCain for President?

                              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                              well, the truth is is we sit around and wait for the politicians to solve the problem, we'll be living in caves again and freezing our collective asses off. Industry has and always will provide the next step. We just need to either support or boot them in the butt. Which ever has the desirable effect. I for one, faced with a $ 12,000 heating bill, have installed a Viessmann Vitolig pellett burning boiler beside my Viessman oil boiler. This puppy should cost me roughly 1/4 what the oil boiler costs to run. It is expensive, but will pay for itself in slightly under 2 years if oil stays at or continues to rise in price. And though there is zero to slightly negative pay back for hydronic for the average customer. I get the parts at a discount so I will most likley put a couple panels on the roof also.
                              Good for you! I looked into a woodburning boiler, five thousand pounds, six inch thick ceramic. Installation would run me another five thousand. Down side was the 8.1 cubic ft fire box. I figured it was roughly three time the size of a woodburning stove or insert and feeding it would be a tough job. I would also need a very sizeable supply of wood. These things can work well if you have the necessary things to support it. I shy away from the pellets because once again their price and availabilty are subject to change. All I need now is a stove or insert? Leaning towards the insert but it will draw electricity to power the blower.

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                              • #45
                                Re: McCain for President?

                                Wow, Mccain is really getting desperate. His latest shenanigans make him look very much like a soon-to-be

                                http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080731/ap_on_el_pr/mccain
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