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  • #46
    Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

    Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
    Listen I dont necessarily agree with this guy but before you all criticize him do you really know HIS cost of doing business? I mean we are in business to make money. I think his numbers are excessive but dont necessarily think he's robbing his customers. The customer wants percieved value. Many people dont want some butt-crack plumber with dirty workboots and clothes, ripped jeans, and smell bad in their homes with their children and wives. Maybe he lays out floor runners, uses booties, drug tests his employees, does background checks,has the best technicians working for him because he has a 401k plan, full medical and dental, paid holidays, sick time, vacations, company cell phone, uniform service, bonuses etc. Those things cost money. How many of us do those things? Like I said I dont know, but those things cost money and its all about PERCEIVED value. Thats why they make Mercedes, BMW, Maybach, Rolls-Royce, Bentley,Lexus etc. and they make Honda Civics, Kia Sedonnas, Hyundai excels, etc. You dont know what HIS overhead is.
    I don't think you should fault anyone just for the magnitude of their pricing as long as they are up front about what it is (meaning if it is an hourly rate, they tell you the rate and if it is flat rate they tell you how much the job will cost). We all have choices, about how much we want to work for; and how much we are willing to spend on any particular job when compared with others who are offering the same service.

    Some people might go "wah" when they hear you charge $300 for a toilet install, but if they knew Eastchester they would realize that it is a super spendy area and you are probably installing mostly top-of-the-line stuff with nice chrome supply lines etc. There is also someone probably willing to do it cheaper too, but they presumably have a different value proposition than you do.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

      Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
      Listen I dont necessarily agree with this guy but before you all criticize him do you really know HIS cost of doing business? I mean we are in business to make money. I think his numbers are excessive but dont necessarily think he's robbing his customers. The customer wants percieved value. Many people dont want some butt-crack plumber with dirty workboots and clothes, ripped jeans, and smell bad in their homes with their children and wives. Maybe he lays out floor runners, uses booties, drug tests his employees, does background checks,has the best technicians working for him because he has a 401k plan, full medical and dental, paid holidays, sick time, vacations, company cell phone, uniform service, bonuses etc. Those things cost money. How many of us do those things? Like I said I dont know, but those things cost money and its all about PERCEIVED value. Thats why they make Mercedes, BMW, Maybach, Rolls-Royce, Bentley,Lexus etc. and they make Honda Civics, Kia Sedonnas, Hyundai excels, etc. You dont know what HIS overhead is.
      The point I was trying to make was that his overhead, costs, expenses, profit are part of the equation of doing business, paying for services and functioning as part of this economy. There are plenty of people who are wealthy enough to pay the hour rates suggested and good for them and him and his employees. I think about the customers who are barely getting by and are faced with fixed incomes and ever rising expenses. You can ignore and insult them for their plight, or you can consider their situation and the ramifications of such high charges. Right now there are hard working people, young families and elderly folks who are suffering from the disasterous effects of oil prices and other economic issues beyond their control. This coming Winter chances are Americans will die choosing between food , gasoline and heating their homes. I got upset, angry to read the prices Jack wants to charge. Not that he is not a good businessman and employer, but that given the bleak financial situation of so many people (customers) it seems unbelievable for a fair minded person to suggest such prices. Imagine if Carpenters, Electricians, Mechanics and other trades people and service business charged such prices? Maybe they would use a similar formula and come to the same conclusions, would that make it right or practical? I don't see it and I don't think I could be convinced that it is reasonable to expect anyone but the very wealthy to be able to afford such rates. Where in the Hell are we headed as a society , as a people? Is there no thought for the other person, is it all about me? Apply some thought to who could afford his rates, how they would be paid for and then think some more of the lives, the people who will suffer for his business formula!

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

        Originally posted by cpw View Post
        I don't think you should fault anyone just for the magnitude of their pricing as long as they are up front about what it is (meaning if it is an hourly rate, they tell you the rate and if it is flat rate they tell you how much the job will cost). We all have choices, about how much we want to work for; and how much we are willing to spend on any particular job when compared with others who are offering the same service.

        Some people might go "wah" when they hear you charge $300 for a toilet install, but if they knew Eastchester they would realize that it is a super spendy area and you are probably installing mostly top-of-the-line stuff with nice chrome supply lines etc. There is also someone probably willing to do it cheaper too, but they presumably have a different value proposition than you do.
        CPW, Eastchester is made up of more than just wealthy folks there are plenty who are holding on by the skin of their teeth in this economy not to mention those on fixed incomes. Let's examine the example you gave for a toilet install, unless there's a crew of volunteers picking up the new toilet and disposing of the old one that job will take a heck of a lot longer than one hour. At $300 an hour maybe you could get away with four hours, how does twelve hundered for a toilet sound? The rates are out of line and unreasonable for most homeowners in my opinion. If I'm correct and the economy gets worse, don't expect most people to pay more for repairs.
        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 07-07-2008, 11:30 PM. Reason: sp

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

          leonard, do you realize that your price of $280-340 an hour is more than most people earn in a day

          i know i work in some of the ritziest places in town. (as shown on my milkshake video) even if those people can afford to pay those rates, i wouldn't even dare try to pull that off on them.

          once again, with established customers, you can't make drastic changes. only small changes. with a total stranger, new caller, you can set a rate that will establish yourself. sure maybe $125 hr. might fly, but $280-340 an hour will make me fly right out the door

          are your customers that well off or just that clueless

          i would think clueless and desperate.

          there's a reason why i get more work than i can handle and you have 4 guys passing out fliers to keep 8 guys busy.

          sounds like your customers pay for your lack of efficiency.

          or i'm so efficient that i can get it done on budget. without all the overhead and waste.

          rick.
          phoebe it is

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            The point I was trying to make was that his overhead, costs, expenses, profit are part of the equation of doing business, paying for services and functioning as part of this economy. There are plenty of people who are wealthy enough to pay the hour rates suggested and good for them and him and his employees. I think about the customers who are barely getting by and are faced with fixed incomes and ever rising expenses. You can ignore and insult them for their plight, or you can consider their situation and the ramifications of such high charges. Right now there are hard working people, young families and elderly folks who are suffering from the disasterous effects of oil prices and other economic issues beyond their control. This coming Winter chances are Americans will die choosing between food , gasoline and heating their homes. I got upset, angry to read the prices Jack wants to charge. Not that he is not a good businessman and employer, but that given the bleak financial situation of so many people (customers) it seems unbelievable for a fair minded person to suggest such prices. Imagine if Carpenters, Electricians, Mechanics and other trades people and service business charged such prices? Maybe they would use a similar formula and come to the same conclusions, would that make it right or practical? I don't see it and I don't think I could be convinced that it is reasonable to expect anyone but the very wealthy to be able to afford such rates. Where in the Hell are we headed as a society , as a people? Is there no thought for the other person, is it all about me? Apply some thought to who could afford his rates, how they would be paid for and then think some more of the lives, the people who will suffer for his business formula!
            Ok here we go. I understand about the economy. Bottom line is as a business person you must do things to make a profit. Again I dont necessarily agree with his numbers but IF those are HIS true numbers, then that is how much he MUST charge if he wants to stay in business. He cant worry about anything else except making the correct number to stay in business. Yes everyone does charity work in one way or another, I do my share. Sad but true, he can NOT worry about if he charges the correct number how will someone pay for this or that, if thats the case go join greenpeace or something and get out of business. This principle applies to all businesses Frankie not just plumbing. I truely believe you have good intentions but you would not make a good businessman.

            On the other hand, if he were to lower his rates to what YOU think is acceptable maybe he would have to gety rid of his employees healthcare and cut their pay to make up the difference? Then the employees will have to spend their money on healthcare and wont be able to heat their house or feed their kids? You do realize that the employees rely on their employer as well right?
            Last edited by Masterplumb; 07-07-2008, 11:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              CPW, Eastchester is made up of more than just wealthy folks there are plenty who are holding on by the skin of their teeth in this economy not to mention those on fixed incomes. Let's examine the example you gave for a toilet install, unless there's a crew of volunteers picking up the new toilet and disposing of the old one that job will take a heck of a lot longer than one hour. At $300 an hour maybe you could get away with four hours, how does twelve hundered for a toilet sound? The rates are out of line and unreasonable for most homeowners in my opinion. If I'm correct and the economy gets worse, don't expect most people to pay more for repairs.
              I think he was commenting on what I stated I would charge for an owner supplied toilet. Not $300/hr

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
                Ok here we go. I understand about the economy. Bottom line is as a business person you must do things to make a profit. Again I dont necessarily agree with his numbers but IF those are HIS true numbers, then that is how much he MUST charge if he wants to stay in business. He cant worry about anything else except making the correct number to stay in business. Yes everyone does charity work in one way or another, I do my share. Sad but true, he can NOT worry about if he charges the correct number how will someone pay for this or that, if thats the case go join greenpeace or something and get out of business. This principle applies to all businesses Frankie not just plumbing. I truely believe you have good intentions but you would not make a good businessman.

                On the other hand, if he were to lower his rates to what YOU think is acceptable maybe he would have to gety rid of his employees healthcare and cut their pay to make up the difference? Then the employees will have to spend his money on healthcare and wont be able to heat his house or feed his kids? You do realize that the employees rely on their employer as well right?
                His true numbers are not in keeping with anything I've ever heard of and that is the point of this discussion. Reread my posts and have other trades and services apply the same formula. Plumber Rick quoted rates that were more within what I consider the norm and I'm sure most of the other readers including trades people agree with this. Do you really think $125 an hour is charity pay? I think $340 an hour is unreasonable regardless of his business plan. Maybe he is not a good businessman? My intentions are plain to see if you read my words. I truely think you are and have been a hard working guy, now if you think he is out of line then he is simply trying to cause a problem here and not make anyone's business better.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  His true numbers are not in keeping with anything I've ever heard of and that is the point of this discussion. Reread my posts and have other trades and services apply the same formula. Plumber Rick quoted rates that were more within what I consider the norm and I'm sure most of the other readers including trades people agree with this. Do you really think $125 an hour is charity pay? I think $340 an hour is unreasonable regardless of his business plan. Maybe he is not a good businessman? My intentions are plain to see if you read my words. I truely think you are and have been a hard working guy, now if you think he is out of line then he is simply trying to cause a problem here and not make anyone's business better.
                  How can you be so sure about his true numbers? What works for plumber rick or myself does not mean it would work for everyone else and that is what started this whole thing. Bestline3 was trying to jam his business model down everyone elses throat.

                  No, I dont think $125/hr is charity pay, but you dont bill 8 hrs a day every day. Ive worked for probably one of the biggest company's around about 10 years ago and their rates were more then 125/hr back then. Again what works for them doesnt necessarily work for me and vice-versa.
                  Last edited by Masterplumb; 07-08-2008, 12:10 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                    Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
                    How can you be so sure about his true numbers? What works for plumber rick or myself does not mean it would work for everyone else and that is what started this whole thing. Bestline3 was trying to jam his business model down everyone elses throat.

                    No, I dont think $125/hr is charity pay, but you dont bill 8 hrs a day every day. Ive worked for probably one of the biggest company's around about 10 years ago and their rates were more then 125/hr back then. Again what works for them doesnt necessarily work for me and vice-versa.
                    I enjoyed your mention of not billing 8 hrs a day every day. Does that mean it's correct to make up for those lost hours by overbilling for the hours worked? Getting back to a previous post in which you talked about his employees getting healthcare and other expenses covered, I don't know if that is part of his pricing but since you are concerned about their plight what about the customer? Can you really dismiss the people who pay for your services so easily? I want to tell you a little story about the time I hired a Plumber to do some work for me in my present home. We were in the process of having a "legal accessory apartment" finished in our home and I needed a licensed Plumber to do some small things and walk through with the city inspector. There was maybe an hour and a half of work that needed to be done and my wife called me upset that the Plumber and his helper were there four hours. I came home and spoke to the guy about the $400.00 bill. I thanked him for doing a fine job and explained to my wife that he was not about to rush through the job in order to save her money. Further more he had bills to cover such as his health insurance and he was not going to accomplish that by working "one hour jobs". When the city inspector came he was happy to see a familiar face and did not find it necessary to rip open finished walls. We were all happy. Moral of the story, Live and Let Live, Be Understanding! $340 an hour? I can't imagine that figure working for many customers, but if you insist that it is part of his business needs then good luck and good bye!
                    Last edited by Frankiarmz; 07-08-2008, 12:26 AM. Reason: sp

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                      To each his own. If a person can throw enough advertising dollars at a business they are going to generate some revenue (usually emergency situations). Although customer retention may not be high, first-time customer generation is enough to balance the books. Think of credit cards charging 30% interest, or even worse cash-advance places charging over 200% interest. There is a niche, for every business, regardless of the price or how it is ran. Many of these business' are there to fulfill a need in a time of emergency, and the customer will pay, and pay big time, for these emergency services. If that is the type of business a person chooses to run, then that is their business, and they will have a market share. Is it wrong of him to make in one hour, what I make in a day? Not at all, just different models of business.
                      Distractions are everywhere, don't lose sight of your dream.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                        When we talk true numbers I believe we also need to consider the truth given to the customer. If Leonard explained to his customers he charges $280 to $340 per hour because his business is so inefficient that is one thing. However, on the other hand if he hides the cost in a flat rate price that is another thing. I've always felt full disclosure was the best way to run a business and if I did not get the job because of that so be it.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          I enjoyed your mention of not billing 8 hrs a day every day. Does that mean it's correct to make up for those lost hours by overbilling for the hours worked? Getting back to a previous post in which you talked about his employees getting healthcare and other expenses covered, I don't know if that is part of his pricing but since you are concerned about their plight what about the customer? Can you really dismiss the people who pay for your services so easily? I want to tell you a little story about the time I hired a Plumber to do some work for me in my present home. We were in the process of having a "legal accessory apartment" finished in our home and I needed a licensed Plumber to do some small things and walk through with the city inspector. There was maybe an hour and a half of work that needed to be done and my wife called me upset that the Plumber and his helper were there four hours. I came home and spoke to the guy about the $400.00 bill. I thanked him for doing a fine job and explained to my wife that he was not about to rush through the job in order to save her money. Further more he had bills to cover such as his health insurance and he was not going to accomplish that by working "one hour jobs". When the city inspector came he was happy to see a familiar face and did not find it necessary to rip open finished walls. We were all happy. Moral of the story, Live and Let Live, Be Understanding! $340 an hour? I can't imagine that figure working for many customers, but if you insist that it is part of his business needs then good luck and good bye!
                          If you read any of my posts on this Ive stated that I didnt believe those are his numbers but IF they were he needed to charge the right amount. You seem to be one of those people that are never happy and put spin on everything. Sorry but I am NOT in business for anything but to make money and give my family the things I FEEL I SHOULD. If I didnt want to make real money I would be an employee somewhere. Good riddance guy.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                            Many years ago I had a conversation with George Brazil when he was first starting out. George is considered by many to have been the father of flat rate plumbers. I asked about customer retention since he was screwing them over so bad. He told me he gave them a coupon for 10% off their next service call and if they were dumb enough to call him again he would screw them over again. I believe at his peak George was spending two million a year on yellow page ads.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                              Many years ago I had a conversation with George Brazil when he was first starting out. George is considered by many to have been the father of flat rate plumbers. I asked about customer retention since he was screwing them over so bad. He told me he gave them a coupon for 10% off their next service call and if they were dumb enough to call him again he would screw them over again. I believe at his peak George was spending two million a year on yellow page ads.

                              Mark
                              Frank Blau said he never needed a repeat customer. He used to say all I have to do is get in everyones house in my area once.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Is $280 to $340 The Correct Hourly Price

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                Many years ago I had a conversation with George Brazil when he was first starting out. George is considered by many to have been the father of flat rate plumbers. I asked about customer retention since he was screwing them over so bad. He told me he gave them a coupon for 10% off their next service call and if they were dumb enough to call him again he would screw them over again. I believe at his peak George was spending two million a year on yellow page ads.

                                Mark
                                Mark, some folks will read that and laugh maybe consider him a "good" businessman. I thought what a lowlife, what a piece of human filth.

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