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  • #46
    Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

    Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
    This subject is too complicated for me to grasp. I don't know much about the history of that area, and I can't bring myself to trust any media source to really inform me very quickly. I just hope we can make oil obsolete soon so it becomes harder for rouge nations to gain economic power without having to co-operate with everyone else. But I know it is not that simple.


    Eli
    As I understand the history of the area is they were the Kingdom of Georgia 900 or so years ago. At one point or another they have been absorbed by land grabs. In the breakup of the Soviet Union they became an independent country again. Some citizens in two of the States decided they wanted to succeed and become part of Russia. Russia is now destroying both the military and the infrastructure of Georgia during the cease fire as they have not seen an official signature yet.

    Mark
    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

      Guys getting back to the russians and what they are doing in this country, is there absolutely no chance that the USA would step in and kick their butts? This seems like the perfect opportunity to fight for democracy and to stop the russians from acting like the "Borg" on star trek. How much longer do we have to hold off doing what appears to be the right thing at the right time?

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        Guys getting back to the russians and what they are doing in this country, is there absolutely no chance that the USA would step in and kick their butts? This seems like the perfect opportunity to fight for democracy and to stop the russians from acting like the "Borg" on star trek. How much longer do we have to hold off doing what appears to be the right thing at the right time?
        Of course let's not forget what happened when we tried to help Kuwait after Iraq decided to make Kuwait part of Iraq. I see no difference between the two except that Saddam was also killing and torturing his own people.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          I think it pretty much is a non-issue but you have to admit had McCain said his daughter from Bangladesh "reacted like a typical black girl" it would have been a big deal.

          Mark

          I agree with that. But if he was saying it in a neutral way only people who are overly PC or have an agenda would complain. If McCain said that his daughter is a typical black girl, and he was saying it with respect and love for her would it really be wrong? If Obama said his wife is a typical black woman it wouldn't be an issue, because he obviously doesn't mean it in a bad way.


          The minutiae of it is kind of irrelevant, I know that it is not even in terms of who can say get away with saying what between Black and White, Men and Women, and honestly even liberal and conservative in the liberals favor. My point is that it is all irrelevant and if we agree it is silly we are not helping by engaging in it to "even it out", only perpetuating it. I know that there are liberal flame fanners and opportunists that are wreaking havoc on discourse, it makes me mad. It is destructive to everyone, especially those they are claiming to represent. Believe me, I respect Masterplumber way more than Sharpton. I don't want him to act like him though, I don't like it from anyone.


          Eli
          A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

            Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
            I agree with that. But if he was saying it in a neutral way only people who are overly PC or have an agenda would complain. If McCain said that his daughter is a typical black girl, and he was saying it with respect and love for her would it really be wrong? If Obama said his wife is a typical black woman it wouldn't be an issue, because he obviously doesn't mean it in a bad way.


            The minutiae of it is kind of irrelevant, I know that it is not even in terms of who can say get away with saying what between Black and White, Men and Women, and honestly even liberal and conservative in the liberals favor. My point is that it is all irrelevant and if we agree it is silly we are not helping by engaging in it to "even it out", only perpetuating it. I know that there are liberal flame fanners and opportunists that are wreaking havoc on discourse, it makes me mad. It is destructive to everyone, especially those they are claiming to represent. Believe me, I respect Masterplumber way more than Sharpton. I don't want him to act like him though, I don't like it from anyone.


            Eli
            Part of the problem is neither one of us were in the room and we have only heard sound bites. The majority of the people may not have even heard the sound bites and instead only read it or heard it second hand. Unless you were there the statement becomes non dimensional and subject to interpretation. The use of the word "typical" has negative connotations to begin with and was a poor word for a guy as well spoken as Obama.

            Forget race, if somebody uses the term "typical plumber" and does not go beyond that is he complimenting the plumber or being negative towards him?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              Of course let's not forget what happened when we tried to help Kuwait after Iraq decided to make Kuwait part of Iraq. I see no difference between the two except that Saddam was also killing and torturing his own people.

              Mark
              Plus can we really afford it, in treasure or military? There are and will continue to be humanitarian disasters that deserve attention too. A member of the opposition party that was running against Mugabe in Zimbabwe had his wife tortured to death just prior to the "election" last month by Mugabe's militia. This is where I get confused by conflicts we are supposed to get involved in. There is genocide in Africa. Right now. Today. Fixing elections. Torturing opposition. Cutting off of hands and feet, murdering of babies.

              Russia could gain power and pose a threat to us again, but China has power and poses a threat right now. Saddam murdered Iraqi Citizens who were against him politically, brutally and with malice, but we were allies well after that came to light. We were concerned he might sponsor terrorism, but we know for certain that Saudi Arabia does, and funds radical anti American groups right in the US! It's not even a secret.

              It really seems like our only enemies are those who threaten the wealth of our country. China makes us money. Saudi Arabia makes us money. They can torture people, sell their prisoners' organs, fund temples and provide them with Islamic texts that call for the murder of western infidels, and other countries can fund militias to maim and destroy and terrorize their populace as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line of the people in power negatively.

              I truly don't get it.


              Eli
              Last edited by woodenstickers; 08-15-2008, 07:32 PM.
              A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                Part of the problem is neither one of us were in the room and we have only heard sound bites. The majority of the people may not have even heard the sound bites and instead only read it or heard it second hand. Unless you were there the statement becomes non dimensional and subject to interpretation. The use of the word "typical" has negative connotations to begin with and was a poor word for a guy as well spoken as Obama.

                Forget race, if somebody uses the term "typical plumber" and does not go beyond that is he complimenting the plumber or being negative towards him?

                Mark

                Point taken. Where the rubber hits the road would it be a typical reaction of white women of her generation to feel apprehensive if a group of unknown black males approached them on the street? Should everyone deny that that happens, or should they be admonished if they say it does happen, or even if they think it is typical but it really isn't?

                That is a hypothetical question for our purposes Mark, because we can't really discuss these issues openly. Part of that is because it is such a sore subject it has been buried to the point we can't even acknowledge it, and we only do if we are using it as a weapon politically.

                I'm no stranger to racism. I've been with my friends when they were pulled over for DWB, and I've been attacked physically and verbally for being white. Jesus, I was threatened with a knife last week downtown SF by some crazy a-hole who wanted to harass me because I'm white. I have a black friend who I know very well, and know very well was not doing anything illegal beaten by the cops and I had a white roommate who never drove anywhere without drugs to sell who always sped, ran stop signs and even when he did get pulled over was never searched.

                It's all real. It's all taboo. If we get even more ridiculous about it it will just fester more. I don't even pretend it is fixable, but I don't pretend it doesn't exist either.


                But you are right, as a politician Obama shouldn't use words like that. But I agreed with him when he said unless we are going to have a real conversation about race in America it is moot.

                Eli
                A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                  there's a 90,000 barrel a day pipeline down to the black sea in that neighborhood. huh, go figure.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                    Originally posted by Service Guy View Post
                    As usual masterplumb brings an extremely fair, balanced, impartial perspective of the presidential race...
                    Show me anything I wrote that was untrue. Thanks in advance Carl.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                      Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post

                      But I agreed with him when he said unless we are going to have a real conversation about race in America it is moot.

                      Eli
                      The problem as a politician is you have to consider the consequences of having a real conversation about race in America. Obama's cronies went after Bill and Hillary and accused them of using race against Obama and now they are doing the same thing with McCain. It is one thing to talk the talk and another thing to walk the walk. Obama may have been the great uniter we all needed but I'm afraid the bright lights have clouded his judgement.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                        Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
                        Show me anything I wrote that was untrue. Thanks in advance Carl.
                        You post was so extremely one-sided its not even worth a response.
                        Water Heater Reviews & Water Heater Information

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                        • #57
                          Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                          Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                          Are you really equating posting on a tool forum with being the president?






                          Thing is, you are right about a lot of the Obama stuff, but a lot of it is pretty hilarious in a real political discussion. In a lot of cases Obama did flip flop based on public opinion, and I don't agree with many of his new stances. I can say that I hope anyone who is going to do something as important as McCain and Obama are trying to do should be allowed, willing and able to change their mind based on learning more about a subject. There are many factors in these issues for someone who really has to make decisions to consider. For them to know in time for pre-election press conferences what needs to be done and never waiver from that decision is unreasonable at best and dangerous at worst. I don't have the time or patience to show you all the places McCain "flip flopped" (anwar), made stupid and useless suggestions to the fuel issue (gas tax holiday) etc. Both of these guys are tools.

                          Ok Eli great point but you know there is a difference between not wanting to drill in Anwr when oil is $30/barrell and changing your mind to wanting to when oil is $140/barrell. That is a flip flop I think the MAJORITY of Americans can agree on don't you think?

                          The gas tax holiday? I'm not sure what to think of it, but I can tell you it's a better idean then to tune up your car and check the air pressure.

                          You are as funny as the libs who got all upset about the "bomb Iran" song McCain sang. Obama hates his own gramma cuz she's white? McCain wants our next four generations to fight 'n die in Iraq??

                          Do you really believe that nonsense about 100 years? Do you know that we still have a military presence in Germany, Italy, South Korea? They have been there for what 50-60 years? They are not in combat but they are still there, strategically placed is that not a bonus? You dont really think he was talking about being in combat for 100 years now do you, I know you better then that.

                          Trying to talk sense and facts with extremest reactionaries from either side who are willing to suspend reality in favor of the gotcha is tiring. rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I guess we'll all go down together.

                          In the meantime, remember how the US beat the USSR in the cold war? Bankrupted 'em and watched them get in a long lasting and expensive war in Afghanistan. No shots fired by us. We are primed for that same fate by China any time they want. And what do China, owners of our economic fate--yes thank in HUGE part to the non-tax and borrow republicans--have in common with the USSR? Oh yeah! They are both gigantic communist and oppressive empires.

                          Yes I do Eli, It was done by one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century....Ronald Wilson Reagan. I agree with you here, as I said I am not a huge George Walker Bush fan. We need to get our economy back on track and that is why Im voting for McCain and NOT GW Bush. A vote for McCain is a vote for Bush's 3rd term, gotta love that, even it is so far from the truth.



                          But hey, which candidate has got a better wife?

                          Say what you want but those quotes came out of her mouth. When you run for president, everything you do is scrutinized. And that is the way it should be.

                          Seriously, Most of the reasons you listed for picking one candidate over another, in this case McCain over Obama are perfectly good and reasonable. I may not agree with them, but I can't do anything but respect your view on the subject. Why the need to sully that with nonsense? "Said he wants to invade Pakistan"? I don't see the point.

                          I appreciate the respect. Obama did say he would go into Pakistan with or without permission to try and get UBL, Pakistan has been our most reliable ally out there (not saying that much) but does he realize the chaos it could bring as they do own nuclear weapons.


                          Eli

                          BTW, love the picture of Rumsfeld, but that was in the early 80's when we were trying to defeat the huge USSR empire, I guess the lesser of 2 evils. But the pic of Obama and Wright in 2006 when he threw his hat in the ring to be the DNC candidate. There is a big difference. Remember some of the things he preached in his church

                          Not God bless America....God Damn America
                          The USKKK of America
                          America's Chickens have come home to roost

                          Last edited by Masterplumb; 08-15-2008, 08:49 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                            I may vote for Obama because he wears nice ties.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                              Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                              See here is what I am talking about too. You have to reach pretty hard to really be offended by this. His grandmother IS white, so the analogy would not be if McCain said the opposite, the analogy would be him saying the exact same thing. If McCain called his Grandma a typical white person in the context of explaining his background and who he is in relation to the country it wouldn't hurt anyones feelings.

                              How about if McCain said something about his "colored daughter that they adopted, would that be ok??

                              By the way Eli, maybe you can explain to me what a "Typical white person" is?

                              Again, I think you are playing the same game you denounce by doing this. Maybe fighting fire with fire is your secret plan, and you are trying to point out how ridiculous PC police have gotten by being just as silly and acting offended as a satire. But if so it is over my head. To me you are playing the same PC card as the people who scream discrimination or campaign to get people fired for "insensitivity" or sue at the drop of a hat. I don't respect that tactic. It's opportunistic, it's weak and it's hurting discourse and this country.

                              What game? Im just telling the truth and people just take it as if Im spinning something, I don't get it.

                              And before you tell me to go back to Canada if I don't like it, honestly one of the reasons I like it here better is because Canada is even more PC and Europe even more than Canada. The US is headed that way too, but fast.

                              I would not tell you to go back anywhere Eli, I thought we went down that road already and straightened it all out? Remember the "how dare you" comment?


                              Eli
                              !

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                              • #60
                                Re: Russia / Georgian conflict

                                By the way has anyone else noticed the slide in the price of oil started when Bush lifted the Executive Order against off-shore drilling? Imagine how low the price could have gone had the vacationing Congress done their job.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                                Comment

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