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  • What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

    Searched but didn't find anything about the Pickens Plan so I'm starting
    this thread.

    Mr. Pickens is not doing this purely out of the goodness of his heart and I don't find fault with that or care if he makes money off the sale of LNG as a motor vehicle fuel.

    What I care about is watching our hard earned dollars heading overseas to jobs that should be kept here.

    What I care about is them building ski resorts in the desert with the profits from the gasoline they sell here.

    Yes we need to clean up our house (Wash DC and the corporate boardrooms in Dallas and Detroit to name two) and get energy self sufficiency for this country STARTED.

    Yes, started, it has never even got off the ground since the 70s. We (the public) let the Fat Cats in Washington lead us down some primrose path all the while telling us everything will be OK. Well the situation has only gotten worse.

    NO ONE can be trusted to serve their constituents interests once they have been re-elected. Most start out with good intentions, but few, if any, are able to hold on to that dream into their second term.

    So I say NO second terms for ANYONE. You get elected, you serve, you get out. President, Senator, what have you. If you were any good then you can run again AFTER you sit out two years from any federal elected office. And if you truly were any good, then the public might elect you again to serve them.

    Lobbyists are all in the unemployment line, there would be no lobbying allowed.

    Campaigning can not start until January of the election year. Those who are in office will not need to campaign because they can't be re-elected so they can concentrate on passing a budget or doing all the things they should be during the year.

    All these breaks for Congress are out too. They are a hold over from the horse and buggy days before the telephone and modern transportation came about. They needed two week breaks to travel back home to confer with their constituents. Not necessary now and a total waste of tax dollars. You get the same federal holidays that we all get.

    The electoral college gets the axe too for the same reason. You get elected by counting the popular vote.

    "None of the Above" should be a choice on all ballots at every government level. If "None of the Above" captures more votes than any of the candidates then the election must be held over with all new candidates.

    Detroit: I don't feel sorry for you one bit. You had 30 years to wake up and give us better gas mileage, hybrid vehicles, etc. But what did you do you just sat back and raked in the cash on whatever vehicle you could crank out that had the highest profit margin. And I remember those words being spoken years ago when the SUVs and PUs started to take over the sales floor. FORD said that the profit margin was so high on a pickup truck and what they could mark up options on PUs now that the general population was interested that they were going to push truck sales. So we ended up with every other soccer moms in F-250s or Tahoes; dragging around 3 tons of steel when they only needed 1.5 or 2 for a mid-size car or the current crop on smaller SUVs. Detroit could have given us 25 MPG vehicles years ago, but that would cost money to invest in R&D and to retool. And besides, every time they were our on the golf course they had their oil baron buddies (like Mr. Pickens) begging them not to.

    The Pickens plan is only part of the solution to energy freedom for our country. We need to develop all the new and green sources that we can where they are economically viable. Solar, wind, geothermal, nuclear, bio-fuels, these should all play a part. It will cost tram and money to develop these alternative energy sources. The get the most bang for our buck we should be insisting that all the technology developed to create these alternative energy sources be produced here in the US. I mentioned the other day about the 30 new nuclear plants that are in the various stages of planning and that they would bring jobs to those areas. They will be construction jobs and then the plant employees who will operate and maintain them. For todays' nukes that averages out to about 800 permanent jobs per unit, and a few thousand jobs during the construction and startup phases.

    http://www.pickensplan.com/media/

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/...ctid1755448369

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/...ctid1726829274


    No matter who gets in the White House on sits on capital hill we need to make sue they make this country's energy Independence a top priority.
    Last edited by Bob D.; 08-28-2008, 09:06 PM.
    ---------------
    Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
    ---------------
    “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
    ---------
    "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
    ---------
    sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

  • #2
    Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

    Great post and I'm sure many here agree with just about everything you said. Losing the lobbyists would be great for the country, but they are controlled by money and power so it's gonna be difficult to impossible to get them GONE!. Switching over to LNG, ridiculous! The conversion cost would be too much for many and the greater demand would probably raise the price. IF the powers that be really want this to happen on a large scale to break foreign oil then there will have to be big incentives! I don't think the one term idea is enough to get politicians in line. I think there should be a three or six month trial period to see if they will hold true to any campaign promises and represent the will of the people. We only have to look back on the last thirty of so years and see how the democrats and republican have played "tag" with holding power and not delivering but damaging our country. Detroit is in trouble. Gas guzzler vehicles and fewer Americans who can afford them. Guess shipping millions of jobs to mexico and overseas was not a good idea after all? 72 month no interest deals and they still can't get rid of those cars and trucks, might as well up the offer terms to 120 months. Problems is even at 120 months at let's say $250.00 a month the rise in gas, heating fuel, food and other essentials has outpaced the ability of people to pay even at those terms. I think part of your grand plan should be a cap or limit on personal debt, we have to reign in the temptation to acquire through smoke and mirrors the things we simply cannot afford! Keep watching the 27" tv and pass on that $1900.00 plasma set. Buy a used car for under ten thousand dollars and pass on the new one for over thrity thousand. If you don't have money for a vacation, stay home! We are not entitled to things because we want them.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

      Thank you for the link Bob.I've got some reading to do.
      Last time I was out to Palm Springs I drove through a couple of the windfarms out there.
      Because it was obvious to me that certain "patches" had different owners that did not maintain their equipment(sometimes 60% or more units down).Made me wonder when the units start to get old and need repair or replacement how profitable are they for the investors.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

        I have no problem using a CNG vehicle. Honda has made them for a few years but the only problem is that they were all in California last I looked. If you have NG at your home you buy a unit that hangs on a wall like a tankless. Hook to your car, never go to the local station.

        Windmills are going up more and more. A local steel and crane company is doing them all the time out West where the wind patterns maximize their use.

        Nuclear seems to be the safest and cleanest but uneducated people are still very afraid of it based on some tragic historic events. Who's to say these worries are unfounded though. I've never seen something engineered perfectly.

        One thing is happening. We are losing influence and power. It's no secret that we are in a "World Economy" and with that said there are X amount of funds/power that is finite and must be distributed within that economy. The only way to do that is for the strong to get weaker and the weak to become stronger. Already happened. Right? The "weak" countries slowly take over manufacturing and thus begin to get stronger with the new influx of work & revenue. The "strong" begin to become weaker because of the loss of manufaturing and available revenue. The strong are much less likely to notice because they have the buying power over a certain term to purchase the weaks products.

        "I will defeat you without ever firing a shot."

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #5
          Nuclear helping to power us into the future

          Part of the solution as I see it for the foreseeable future anyway, has got to include nuclear power generation.

          These are very expensive to build but today their reliability is excellent with up times that fleet wide (103 units) is over 92%. That’s not 5 9s reliability but for what they are it is very good. Many operate at better than 97%, coming down only to refuel about every 18 months.

          The next generation of units should be built differently. I have been saying the following since the 70s would help keep construction and maintenance cost down;
          The NRC needs to put their foot down and approve only a few (one or two) standard designs. A utility could build design A or B, and scale it up or down within some limits, but that’s it.
          Like Henry Ford said: “You can have any color you want as long as it’s black.”

          What will that accomplish? The same thing it did in France. Materials, design specs, etc all become standardized. This will drive the cost of components down, way down. So many parts are custom in today’s plants. To have custom pumps cast drives the price way up. If they can crank out 30 of them the price goes way down. The whole standardization scheme will reduce construction costs by billions. And the savings continues into maintenance and operating costs, helping to keep the price of electricity down.

          The other big piece is that everything needs to be built here in the USA. Right now as far as I know there are only two facilities in the world (operating) that can cast the major components such as reactor vessels. If the nexgen units are of similar design and use mega components (>600 tons) we will be in a bad way if we have to rely on foreign vendors for these components. There are utilities all around the world who are building nuclear plants, we would just be one more in line waiting to get our orders filled, and some of those wait times are greater than 4 years. But, if we take idled foundries here in the US and put them (and the people who used to operate them) back to work there is no one standing in line in front of us, No construction delays waiting of the French to deliver our parts. And we’ve put more people back to work helping to rebuild America’s infrastructure.

          They should be made here. This is years of foundry work to manufacturer all these components and billions and billions of dollars or labor that will go overseas. We need to get our foundries back online and build all these parts here. Pipe valves, hangers, pumps, motors, heat exchangers, switchgear, the list goes on and on.

          They way to get maximum benefit from developing alternative energy sources is to put Americans to work making them, not buy the parts overseas and assemble them here.


          Last edited by Bob D.; 08-28-2008, 09:45 PM.
          ---------------
          Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
          ---------------
          “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
          ---------
          "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
          ---------
          sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

            Would love for that to happen. But as I stated, the larger companies have greedily embraced "World Economy" and not "U.S. Economy." When one does that they only concentrate on their bottom line with complete disregard to where it's made.

            How can you force the private power companies to build with U.S. citizens with only U.S. made parts? He/she/they are the owner and will do ANYTHING to increase bottom line with disregard to patriotism or maybe even the big picture. I'm sure you know that though. We all do with our Chinese Kohler products, Mexican American Standard, Brazilian copper, etc.

            Wish I had the answer, but it appears that America is more a whore for the dollar than a patriot. And it has and will continue to reap the damages from it.

            My how things have changed. Do you think Americans would drive Mercedes' when fighting Hitler?

            J.C.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

              Bob D
              I've got a twist on the Pickens plan. Instead of using wind generation for the electrical grid use it for producing hydrogen to power cars. It reduces the capital costs to the investors( no running miles of high tension wires and the required 90% back-up system(normal generating plant)). Use the hydrogen to power all sorts of vehicles. This will intern drop the price of oil and loosen the anchor of petrolium holding back our economy. Yes filling stations would have to change to accomadate the new fuel. But if anyone could have a wind turbine to produce hydrogen it would be in the filling stations best interest to provide a conveniant alterenitive to investing in a private wind generator.
              Mike

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                "How can you force the private power companies to build with U.S. citizens with only U.S. made parts? "

                You can when they come crying for money to bankroll the construction of the new plants. And they are already positioning themselves so they appear so poor that they can't underwrite the construction costs by themselves. Hogwash, even at a price of 5 billion these units pay for themselves in 10 years. With an design life of 40 years that's not too bad.

                If they come to Uncle Sam then he (we) could force the issue and say they money must be spent here.

                They way the rate structure is in many states utilities can start passing on design and licensing costs to rate payers now, long before a kilowatt is produced. That's how they plan to finance the construction on our dime. But if enough people go to their state BPU and voice objection to this unless the money stays here it might make a difference.

                Hey, I don't have all the answers, just trying to get some intelligent discussion going here.
                Last edited by Bob D.; 08-28-2008, 10:13 PM.
                ---------------
                Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                ---------------
                “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                ---------
                "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                ---------
                sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                  I do want change. It's my belief throughout time there is no change without things getting bad first. There is no strength without the struggle.

                  Maybe we're almost there.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                    "How can you force the private power companies to build with U.S. citizens with only U.S. made parts? "
                    Simple, write it into the permiting requirments under National Security.
                    Mike

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                      There's some really REALLY good points made here. We have got to get away from foreign energy. It's bad for our country and bad for our world. Drilling more is a less-than-stop-gap solution. We need nuclear and hydrogen and wind and solar and everything else we can think of, including LNG. We have way more LNG than anything else right here in the US. We can convert to use that in the short term, while we build up hydrogen fuel or some other solution. This transfer of wealth is real and it's real scary. We're becoming 3rd world while the middle east becomes the world power. You think they'd ship us grain when we're in a droubt? HA HA HA HA....right....no one would do that! Oh...yeah...except us. We're rich in grains and fertile soil. For now. It's expensive to get because of ....fuel!

                      We have to find the solutions. I think T. Boone has a good answer. I don't care if he's making money on this solution. It will work.
                      I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                        I just like saying, "T. Boone Pickens!" I'm gonna' try to start using that instead of curse words.

                        J.C.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                          Bob,

                          I agree with the premise of your post, but do take issue with many of the details. I'm going a bit against the grain here, but here we go.

                          Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                          Mr. Pickens is not doing this purely out of the goodness of his heart and I don't find fault with that or care if he makes money off the sale of LNG as a motor vehicle fuel.

                          What I care about is watching our hard earned dollars heading overseas to jobs that should be kept here.
                          I agree with you here. I also want to point out that Pickens says we should also drill here. We have the know-how and ability to do it, so we should.

                          What I care about is them building ski resorts in the desert with the profits from the gasoline they sell here.
                          I don't care if they want to build ski resorts in the desert, if that floats their boat. They've got the oil, and maximizing their profit is their business. I do care when they spend thier money on things like invading their neighbors (Russia) or undermining American (Iran).

                          Yes we need to clean up our house (Wash DC and the corporate boardrooms in Dallas and Detroit to name two) and get energy self sufficiency for this country STARTED.

                          Yes, started, it has never even got off the ground since the 70s. We (the public) let the Fat Cats in Washington lead us down some primrose path all the while telling us everything will be OK. Well the situation has only gotten worse.

                          NO ONE can be trusted to serve their constituents interests once they have been re-elected. Most start out with good intentions, but few, if any, are able to hold on to that dream into their second term.

                          So I say NO second terms for ANYONE. You get elected, you serve, you get out. President, Senator, what have you. If you were any good then you can run again AFTER you sit out two years from any federal elected office. And if you truly were any good, then the public might elect you again to serve them.
                          I agree with term limits. Though I will say it is our fault for sending these bums back over and over.

                          Lobbyists are all in the unemployment line, there would be no lobbying allowed.
                          This is where I start to disagree with you. I think that it is important to be able to petition elected representatives, and placing limits on that is a bad idea. In other posts, you said that if plumbers don't like DIY, they should convince thier elected officials to ban DIY. That is lobbying right there. I don't agree with that stance, but I agree with their right to petition the elected officials. (I'm not trying to start the DIY fight here, just using it as an example.) I like that the NRA lobby in favor of gun rights.

                          Campaigning can not start until January of the election year. Those who are in office will not need to campaign because they can't be re-elected so they can concentrate on passing a budget or doing all the things they should be during the year.
                          I don't think we should place limits on political speech. The first amendment is designed to protect exactly this kind of speech.

                          All these breaks for Congress are out too. They are a hold over from the horse and buggy days before the telephone and modern transportation came about. They needed two week breaks to travel back home to confer with their constituents. Not necessary now and a total waste of tax dollars. You get the same federal holidays that we all get.
                          Gonna disagree with you here. I don't think they need "breaks", but spending time in their district makes sense. Congress doesn't need to be voting for legislation to be drafted and opinions formed.

                          The electoral college gets the axe too for the same reason. You get elected by counting the popular vote.
                          I like the electoral college, it makes sure big states don't roll over little states and less densely populated one. If we follow the logic that we get rid of the electoral college, we should also get rid of the senate.

                          "None of the Above" should be a choice on all ballots at every government level. If "None of the Above" captures more votes than any of the candidates then the election must be held over with all new candidates.
                          I would prefer instant run-off voting to what we have now. I think none-of-the-above has some practical problems; because it could leave you with vacancies and require special elections. IRV would hopefully encourage races that have more than than just two candidates to be viable.

                          Charles

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What's your take on the Pickens Plan?

                            Originally posted by VASandy View Post
                            This transfer of wealth is real and it's real scary.
                            If we eliminated petroleum imports our trade deficit would be reduced by 80%.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Nuclear helping to power us into the future

                              Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
                              The NRC needs to put their foot down and approve only a few (one or two) standard designs. A utility could build design A or B, and scale it up or down within some limits, but that’s it.
                              Like Henry Ford said: “You can have any color you want as long as it’s black.”
                              I agree with this whole heartedly. The NRC should put it up to bid for the basic design and award the contract to 1 or 2 companies that design the best reactor. The licensing procedure does need some options though for each design; for example with one reactor design, the utility can pick river water or cooling towers depending on the site. We probably can't get cookie cutter copies entirely, but we should try very hard to come close. It would improve safety as well as cost and speed up the permitting process.

                              Comment

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