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  • #61
    Re: McCain's VP choice

    Originally posted by cpw View Post
    Government should stay out of it. Religion is optional so it can't force anything. Having kids is the greatest joy, responsibility, and right there is. I think it falls under all three of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness [not that those three have any actual protection; but they are a good philosopical starting point].


    Palin has nothing against the use of birth control. How do you know the child is unwanted. There is a BIG difference between an accidental child and an unwanted child.

    As an aside, if you want to have sex and not have children; I think oral contraception or equivalent is the only way to go. If you don't want to get an STD, then you need to practice monogamy. Contraceptives don't do it; and condoms fail and although they probably provide very good protection against things like AIDs; they won't prevent the spread of Herpes, which is probably a bigger problem.
    Cpw, you are a very intelligent young man, husband and father, but still a young man! I've lived through too many babies in the trash and too many infants and toddlers brutalized by the people who did not share your ideals. The government is very involved in all of this and so is religion. This issue of birth control, controlling pregnancy and a woman's body is very complicated and involves many power players.Men cannot be raped and become pregnant but there are those men who still feel they have the right to decide for a woman. Men are part of the pregnancy equation but still today it is often the woman dealing with decision to abort or carry to term and beyond. I don't know what the intentions or specifics of the Palin case are, but I do know at seventeen the girl is still very young and possibly a minor. Having this baby will change her life forever and unlike yourself and your wife we do not know the capacity of this couple to care for their child. The issues are very complicated and as long as people waste time arguing unwanted babies will either be aborted or endure difficult sometimes brutal lives. The risk of pregnancy and or STD's and death will not, have not stopped people from having sex, so I suggest we make available everything we can to reduce all those risks until we can raise young adults who cherish themselves, eachother and the unborn lives they make more than they do now.
    Last edited by Frankiarmz; 09-01-2008, 09:47 PM.

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    • #62
      Re: McCain's VP choice

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      Men cannot be raped and become pregnant but there are those men who still feel they have the right to decide for a woman.
      If you eliminate rape. I would argue that the man and woman both decided when she had sex. You are arguing that men decide for women; but who is deciding for the unborn baby. I wasn't always pro-life, but then I saw my son on a sonogram; and he had a slow heartbeat at the time. He might not have had any feeling, but he was certainly alive; and the only clear demarcation is conception.

      Men are part of the pregnancy equation but still today it is often the woman dealing with decision to abort or carry to term and beyond. I don't know what the intentions or specifics of the Palin case are, but I do know at seventeen the girl is still very young and possibly a minor. Having this baby will change her life forever and unlike yourself and your wife we do not know the capacity of this couple to care for their child.
      I agree we don't know the capacity of this couple to care for the child; but who gets to decide who is worthy of caring for a child and who isn't.

      The issues are very complicated and as long as people waste time arguing unwanted babies will either be aborted or endure difficult sometimes brutal lives. The risk of pregnancy and or STD's and death will not, have not stopped people from having sex, so I suggest we make available everything we can to reduce all those risks until we can raise young adults who cherish themselves, eachother and the unborn lives they make more than they do now.
      Condoms are already pretty cheap, and I'm told available for free for some places. Plan B is around $50, the internet claims that generic forms of ortho tri-cyclen can be had for $12-15 a month. I really doubt the expense is what is preventing people from exercising better judgement.

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      • #63
        Re: McCain's VP choice

        Originally posted by cpw View Post
        Condoms are already pretty cheap, and I'm told available for free for some places. Plan B is around $50, the internet claims that generic forms of ortho tri-cyclen can be had for $12-15 a month. I really doubt the expense is what is preventing people from exercising better judgement.
        now that is the truth

        steve
        In the never ending struggle to keep the water flowing.... The Poo Poo Cowboy rides again!!!

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        • #64
          Re: McCain's VP choice

          Family members should be off limits in this campaign, which it's already obvious what "some" are in the agenda of doing.


          This, of course will come back to haunt those who do this ten-fold because it opens the doors to how low you can go.


          What's apparent is that one side has not a lot to dig up on this woman, and they are going to be scraping to find anything worthwhile to make this a way to diminish, discredit, destroy.


          She holds her weight very well......and she's actually quite attractive. I don't think I've ever seen anyone "that" attractive in politics.

          Politics....Ugly people's hollywood.
          Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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          • #65
            Re: McCain's VP choice

            Originally posted by cpw View Post
            If you eliminate rape. I would argue that the man and woman both decided when she had sex. You are arguing that men decide for women; but who is deciding for the unborn baby. I wasn't always pro-life, but then I saw my son on a sonogram; and he had a slow heartbeat at the time. He might not have had any feeling, but he was certainly alive; and the only clear demarcation is conception.
            Men and women are still not on equal terms and unless you were a woman in society you would not appreciate the truth of that statement. In my opinion the value of human life born or unborn is in part dependant upon those involved in that life. The parents who have struggled to get pregnant find their unborn priceless as opposed to the couple who cannot provide for their six children and could not afford birth control.

            I agree we don't know the capacity of this couple to care for the child; but who gets to decide who is worthy of caring for a child and who isn't.
            Time decides and as time passes the decision is clear but the opportunity to correct the mistakes is missed. We as a society can accept to have the past judge the future or we can be proactive and set in place some guidelines to safeguard against unplanned, unwanted pregnancies and abortions. If unborn lives were truly so valuable society would do more to prevent accidental pregnancy. Society decides, we judge others by our standards either silently or out loud. We have been silent for too long, so unborn babies die, children are the victims of people in positions of authority and trust. We decide because it is too important to leave to chance, to blindly give as a right without any proof of intent or capability.

            Condoms are already pretty cheap, and I'm told available for free for some places. Plan B is around $50, the internet claims that generic forms of ortho tri-cyclen can be had for $12-15 a month. I really doubt the expense is what is preventing people from exercising better judgement.
            You think expense is not an issue because you are not poor. My daughters throw lipstick and other makeup that is new or hardly used in the garbage while grown women is many places right here in the USA go without! Money is an issue for some and for others age and accessibility to birth control is a problem. Then there are parental issues, we are in denial that our "Children" can be sexually active so rather than talk to them like adults and give them the access to condoms and birth control we turn a blind eye and expect them to just not have sex, INSANE! and dangerous! My oldest daughter did not have sex until she was twenty but I asked her to carry a condom prior to that. I said in the event of rape beg for your life and ask him to use the condom. Sounds sick to you? Let me tell you as a loving Father, you can't be there every moment to protect them so you do what you can to get them home alive. I strongly urge you to watch some porn on the Internet and expose yourself to the reality of the world around you. You can control your sterile hom environment but the world is what it is and ignoring it does not make it any safer. Go on the national sex offenders list and by town or zip code find out who lives around you.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: McCain's VP choice

              I appreciate the fact that you have "urged me to watch some porn." But alas, I'm still on dialup.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: McCain's VP choice

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                I appreciate the fact that you have "urged me to watch some porn." But alas, I'm still on dialup.

                J.C.
                Sorry. In a word, "Disgusting". I watch six to eight hours a day and I'm disgusted!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: McCain's VP choice

                  Didn't people used to have children all the time between the ages of 15-18 all the time way back when? Then we rearranged our moral compass to say it's wrong. Just thinking.

                  Either way, I don't think the VP's daughters condition has much bearing on her ability to do the job. Seen too many parents that did everything they could and the kids still made some not-so-good decisions.

                  J.C.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: McCain's VP choice

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    Didn't people used to have children all the time between the ages of 15-18 all the time way back when? Then we rearranged our moral compass to say it's wrong. Just thinking.

                    Either way, I don't think the VP's daughters condition has much bearing on her ability to do the job. Seen too many parents that did everything they could and the kids still made some not-so-good decisions.

                    J.C.
                    I totally agree that the decision to have sex was between the girl and her boyfriend and it is unfair to think the parents are at fault. There are plenty of good parents who do everything they can to have their children understand right from wrong but like you said it doesn't always work out for the best.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: McCain's VP choice

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post

                      Men cannot be raped and become pregnant but there are those men who still feel they have the right to decide for a woman.
                      As

                      As crazy as the concept may seem is it possible they think they have the right to decide what's best for the unborn child?

                      Right after my 18th birthday we found out my then girlfriend now wife was pregnant. The first thing that came out of everyone's mouth was where to go to get an abortion. Instead we decided to get married and raise the baby. Now after almost 38-years of marriage I look at what my daughter has become and the grand children she has given us and wonder how anyone could be so cavalier with an unborn child. Sure life was tough and we lost the support system of our friends and family for a time but you know what they say "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I figure everything we have done in our lives has contributed some how into what we are today. We are happy with where we are and would not change it for the world.

                      Mark

                      BTW: My parents were both Liberals and instead of telling me they were disappointed with me they told me they blamed it on the society we lived in. I always felt that was a defeatist attitude.
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: McCain's VP choice

                        Originally posted by Masterplumb View Post
                        I believe she has more experience then Obama.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

                        City counsel, mayor and governer.

                        B.H.O.

                        Community organizer?, state senator and 2 year u.s. senator.

                        AS QUOTED ABOVE. SHE HAS WAY MORE EXPERIENCE THAN OBAMA. PEOPLE NEED TO RESEARCH BEFORE THEY VOTE.

                        THE LAST 15 YEARS HAVE BEEN TRYING TIMES FOR THE WORLD. MILITARY MIGHT IS ONE OF THE SUPERIOR THINGS THE USA HAS.

                        We not need to regroup and build in America again too. I hope Mc Cain wins. I have been to countries like Poland as well as others that have socialistic medicine. Do you want to wait for a liver transplant or cancer drugs because the people who have the same illness as you have money to pay off a clinic or hospital first.

                        That will be the case here if we don't watch out.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: McCain's VP choice

                          Mark, nice to hear a story with a happy ending like yours. I don't want to be thought to have a defeatest atttiude, I just think if we are going to reduce teen pregnancy and abortion something more must be done. Too few young couples who are having sex and getting pregnant have the desire, will, love and ability to see things through as you did. All these situations are different and so very personal. When I found out my four month old daughter had a fatal genetic illness I broke down and cried, that was over fourteen years ago. That was my reaction to my daughter's future and yet there are men who father healthy little girls and boys only to kill them! Some people should not be parents, should not be able or allowed to have children in my opinion. At the very least I'd make it easier to help these folks avoid having to decide by preventing the situation right off.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: McCain's VP choice

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            Mark, nice to hear a story with a happy ending like yours. I don't want to be thought to have a defeatest atttiude, I just think if we are going to reduce teen pregnancy and abortion something more must be done. Too few young couples who are having sex and getting pregnant have the desire, will, love and ability to see things through as you did. All these situations are different and so very personal. When I found out my four month old daughter had a fatal genetic illness I broke down and cried, that was over fourteen years ago. That was my reaction to my daughter's future and yet there are men who father healthy little girls and boys only to kill them! Some people should not be parents, should not be able or allowed to have children in my opinion. At the very least I'd make it easier to help these folks avoid having to decide by preventing the situation right off.
                            I am sorry for your pain and as a father I too have broken down and cried. As macho as we would like to pretend to be any father who has not cried out of pain or joy is not a real father.

                            The only problem I have with abortion is when it is used as birth control. It seems the more available abortions have become the more teenage pregnancies we have had. As harsh as it sounds I believe after the second abortion there should be verified mandatory sterilization of both partners.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: McCain's VP choice

                              Originally posted by cpw View Post
                              If you eliminate rape. I would argue that the man and woman both decided when she had sex. You are arguing that men decide for women; but who is deciding for the unborn baby. I wasn't always pro-life, but then I saw my son on a sonogram; and he had a slow heartbeat at the time. He might not have had any feeling, but he was certainly alive; and the only clear demarcation is conception.


                              I agree we don't know the capacity of this couple to care for the child; but who gets to decide who is worthy of caring for a child and who isn't.


                              Condoms are already pretty cheap, and I'm told available for free for some places. Plan B is around $50, the internet claims that generic forms of ortho tri-cyclen can be had for $12-15 a month. I really doubt the expense is what is preventing people from exercising better judgement.
                              That was my whole point.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: McCain's VP choice

                                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                                Mark, nice to hear a story with a happy ending like yours. I don't want to be thought to have a defeatest atttiude, I just think if we are going to reduce teen pregnancy and abortion something more must be done. Too few young couples who are having sex and getting pregnant have the desire, will, love and ability to see things through as you did. All these situations are different and so very personal. When I found out my four month old daughter had a fatal genetic illness I broke down and cried, that was over fourteen years ago. That was my reaction to my daughter's future and yet there are men who father healthy little girls and boys only to kill them! Some people should not be parents, should not be able or allowed to have children in my opinion. At the very least I'd make it easier to help these folks avoid having to decide by preventing the situation right off.
                                I agree whole heartedly but it is NOT the governments responsibility.

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