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100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

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  • #16
    Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

    It will be in the red because of R&D costs. I doubt the cost of producing a car will be above the wholesale price.
    The old gm electric's production cost was way above what gm was getting out of the lease payment.
    www.TheWoodCellar.com

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    • #17
      Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

      Acccording to Lutz they estimate at least 250 million lost a year in manufacturing costs alone and they already had to bump the price $10,000 over the $30,000 they were aiming for. Pricing the car higher to break even would pretty much assure it's failure. $40K is already pushing it to make the car worthwhile. Lithium ion is still years away from being affordable for mainstream acceptance.

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      • #18
        Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

        I don't think battery operated cars are the answer to our energy problem. At least not until we have more power generation in this country. The only thing a battery does is store energy until it is needed. That energy has to come from somewhere.

        Right now we have problems trying to avoid brown outs on warm summer days in some areas of the country. Just imagine a few million drivers getting home from work and plugging in their cars.

        Oil fired power plants will not help the problem. Still need to import the oil. I have heard that this country has enough coal to produce the power but the environmentalists would have a fit at the mention of burning coal. So that leaves what, wind and solar? The Pickens plan is looking better and better when you consider the alternatives. Hydrogen sounds good but I wonder how much energy it takes to produce hydrogen.

        And every time you convert one form of energy into another there are losses to consider. Nothing is 100% efficient. (Except maybe Rick with his K60).

        People a lot smarter than me will have to come up with answers as to how we charge all of these battery operated cars that are supposed to be saving all that oil.
        Last edited by DSurette; 09-04-2008, 08:47 PM. Reason: Sp
        When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

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        • #19
          Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

          Originally posted by DSurette View Post
          I don't think battery operated cars are the answer to our energy problem. At least not until we have more power generation in this country. The only thing a battery does is store energy until it is needed. That energy has to come from somewhere.

          Right now we have problems trying to avoid brown outs on warm summer days in some areas of the country. Just imagine a few million drivers getting home from work and plugging in their cars.
          I would agree with that but I very highly doubt it will ever get to that point. The concept of the fully electric car will probably never go anywhere. It has some significant practical problems. You could only use your car if you are absolutely sure you will not go beyond its range. If you run the batteries dry on the road what you you do? Call for a tow? I mean unless they make battery swap stations they are going nowhere.

          All automakers now largely agree that hybrids are the future and in 15 to 20 years it's entirely likely that almost every single new car will be a hybrid of some sort. While most will probably have the ability to top off batteries from the electrical grid we'll see how well that works for many of the reasons you stated.

          Here's neat little fact. The 200+ mile per charge Tesla claims a 3 to 4 hour charge time from full empty. The catch is that's on a 240v 50A circuit. You can charge off a regular 120v 15a or 20a circuit, except it takes something like 24 to 30 hours.

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          • #20
            Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

            Originally posted by Velosapien View Post
            Here's neat little fact. The 200+ mile per charge Tesla claims a 3 to 4 hour charge time from full empty. The catch is that's on a 240v 50A circuit. You can charge off a regular 120v 15a or 20a circuit, except it takes something like 24 to 30 hours.
            I wonder if that is one of the reasons an overnight Volt charge is only 40 miles. Having a 240 50A circuit installed to charge the car would be easy for me at least, because my panel is in the garage.

            I think mostly plugin electric cars are going to happen, because they should get very good efficiency. I'm not sure why Chevy decided to go Lion instead of NiMH though. I personally think we should charge them with Nukes.

            The one problem I see with the electric car, is I want a big inefficient gasoline engine in the winter so I don't freeze my @ss off.

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            • #21
              Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

              Originally posted by DSurette View Post
              I don't think battery operated cars are the answer to our energy problem. At least not until we have more power generation in this country. The only thing a battery does is store energy until it is needed. That energy has to come from somewhere.

              Right now we have problems trying to avoid brown outs on warm summer days in some areas of the country. Just imagine a few million drivers getting home from work and plugging in their cars.
              Anymore heavy loads and we would have a real disastrous mess to deal with. Where I am the electric power companies are begging us to cut back and have special deals for people (especially commercial users) that do upgrade to better energy saving devices along with power use management.

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              • #22
                Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                Originally posted by Woussko View Post
                Anymore heavy loads and we would have a real disastrous mess to deal with. Where I am the electric power companies are begging us to cut back and have special deals for people (especially commercial users) that do upgrade to better energy saving devices along with power use management.
                If the cars are actually charged at night though, they should be pretty happy since it should help flatten out the curve of power use throughout the day.

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                • #23
                  Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                  First, I didn't read all the posts so maybe this has been addressed. Second, this may be a dumb question, but I'm a not-so-smart plumber.

                  So here goes, any fuel has X amount of potential energy that can be used. The goal is to get 100% of the energy out (impossible). So my question or question is:

                  What is the potential energy available in common 87 octane gas, the internal combustion engine and what is the efficiency rating for various designs? Any ideas?

                  J.C.
                  Last edited by BobsPlumbing; 09-04-2008, 10:21 PM. Reason: Words....duh.....

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                  • #24
                    Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                    Originally posted by cpw View Post
                    I wonder if that is one of the reasons an overnight Volt charge is only 40 miles. Having a 240 50A circuit installed to charge the car would be easy for me at least, because my panel is in the garage.

                    I think mostly plugin electric cars are going to happen, because they should get very good efficiency. I'm not sure why Chevy decided to go Lion instead of NiMH though. I personally think we should charge them with Nukes.

                    The one problem I see with the electric car, is I want a big inefficient gasoline engine in the winter so I don't freeze my @ss off.
                    Not really, the Volt has far fewer batteries than the Tesla which has about $50,000 worth of lithium ion in it. It should charge much faster.

                    With NiMH the Volt would probably not work well enough to be viable. It would cut the electric range in about half and the batteries would weigh at least double making matters worse. Remember unlike the Prius the Volt is fully electric. The gas engine is not connected to the wheels in any way like current hybrids. When the batteries run low the gas engine just runs a generator to recharge batteries and power the car. I think while many hybrids will eventually have the range to go fully electric off the grid most of the time, the need for a fuel engine to fall back on will always be required.
                    Last edited by Velosapien; 09-04-2008, 10:29 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                      Originally posted by cpw View Post
                      If the cars are actually charged at night though, they should be pretty happy since it should help flatten out the curve of power use throughout the day.
                      I wonder if increased use of plugins would lead to more solar installations? Even if they were dedicated primarily for charging the cars it would provide cheap energy and further reduce the burden on the grid. On the subject of solar energy, I was thinking if I could afford to have my home go solar I would install several large insulated water tanks to hold water heated during the day by electricity off the panels and use it to heat my house at night. I'll bet with the right technology you could superheat a more dense liquid and use a heat exchanger to heat your circulating water. OH what possibilities if I only had the money.

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                      • #26
                        Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                        Takes coal to create electric

                        electric to charge big huge batteries that are horrible to the landfill equation as a known poisonous substance.


                        Think of it this way,


                        High impact collision in a vehicle such as that, think of what the chemical hazard is. Bad enough you have a small battery....but now a huge one?


                        The energy factor isn't fully disclosed on those new types of vehicles.


                        I hear the batteries have to be replaced at a fine dime at some point.

                        I'm sure they lose their charge quicker as they age.
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                        • #27
                          Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                          I wonder how much hydrogen and oxygen the current from a plugin could derive from water through electrolysis which could then be used as fuel instead of powering an electric engine?

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                          • #28
                            Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            I wonder if increased use of plugins would lead to more solar installations? Even if they were dedicated primarily for charging the cars it would provide cheap energy and further reduce the burden on the grid. On the subject of solar energy, I was thinking if I could afford to have my home go solar I would install several large insulated water tanks to hold water heated during the day by electricity off the panels and use it to heat my house at night. I'll bet with the right technology you could superheat a more dense liquid and use a heat exchanger to heat your circulating water. OH what possibilities if I only had the money.
                            Solar to recharge plugins is the holy grail of electric vehicles. Like all technology solar should eventually increase in efficiency and come down in cost as long as the motivation is out there to keep R&D going on it. Of course we'll need some way of storing that energy. Solar won't do much good if you charge the car at night Solar panels on vehicles are another possibility. Toyota is due to start making special versions that use solar power to run electric devices in the car and leave the batteries fully dedicated to moving it.

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                            • #29
                              Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              I wonder if increased use of plugins would lead to more solar installations? Even if they were dedicated primarily for charging the cars it would provide cheap energy and further reduce the burden on the grid. On the subject of solar energy, I was thinking if I could afford to have my home go solar I would install several large insulated water tanks to hold water heated during the day by electricity off the panels and use it to heat my house at night. I'll bet with the right technology you could superheat a more dense liquid and use a heat exchanger to heat your circulating water. OH what possibilities if I only had the money.
                              Has anyone seen the solar setup Honda has in California? They use solar panels to create electricity. Use that in electrolysis of water. Then use the Hydrogen in a fuel cell Civic.

                              J.C.

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                              • #30
                                Re: 100 mile per gallon car!!!!!

                                [QUOTE=DUNBAR

                                I'm sure they lose their charge quicker as they age.[/QUOTE]

                                Lithium ion loses it's capacity to hold a charge every year. this has been discussed here regarding our lithium ion cordless tool batteries. I bought some lithiums for use in tactical flashlight. They claim 1000 charging cycles and I figured once a week would last me twenty years. Wrong! Every year I think you lose something like ten to fifteen or more percent of capacity.

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