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  • #16
    Re: Go Get Another Job!

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    Disappointingly simplistic take on the current condition of the US Automotive Industry. If we lose these manufacturers it goes beyond the employees of the three big it will include all of the support businesses as well.
    Mark

    Simple or not. What I said is still true. American automakers are not competitive enough, they need to be in order to survive. That is reality like it or not. They need to make some hard changes quickly...like I said, adapt or die.
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    • #17
      Re: Go Get Another Job!

      Originally posted by Service Guy View Post
      Simple or not. What I said is still true. American automakers are not competitive enough, they need to be in order to survive. That is reality like it or not. They need to make some hard changes quickly...like I said, adapt or die.
      Let's say the automakers get all the money they request and take your advice, they become competitive. First thing they do is announce they are moving production to south america, no more Union and high labor costs, no more EPA and OSHA. Now they are competitive. They won't be selling any of those great new cars to former autoworkers who don't have jobs or the many other folks who depended on their business to survive. I think part of the mess we are witnessing is due to the loss of good paying jobs, Union or otherwise. If you want to really compete with the rest of the world (global economy) then our standard of living will have to mirror that of the third world. I don't want to see that happen and I'm pretty sure those third world workers can't afford new cars, consumer electronics or American tradsmen. We still don't have answers that get us back on our feet.

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      • #18
        Re: Go Get Another Job!

        Originally posted by Service Guy View Post
        Simple or not. What I said is still true. American automakers are not competitive enough, they need to be in order to survive. That is reality like it or not. They need to make some hard changes quickly...like I said, adapt or die.
        Sorry Carl I thought your reply was to Frank's original post. I don't disagree with you if you were referring to the Automotive Industry in general.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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        • #19
          Re: Go Get Another Job!

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Let's say the automakers get all the money they request and take your advice, they become competitive. First thing they do is announce they are moving production to south america, no more Union and high labor costs, no more EPA and OSHA. Now they are competitive. They won't be selling any of those great new cars to former autoworkers who don't have jobs or the many other folks who depended on their business to survive. I think part of the mess we are witnessing is due to the loss of good paying jobs, Union or otherwise. If you want to really compete with the rest of the world (global economy) then our standard of living will have to mirror that of the third world. I don't want to see that happen and I'm pretty sure those third world workers can't afford new cars, consumer electronics or American tradsmen. We still don't have answers that get us back on our feet.
          I disagree, I believe we need to compete with our strengths not our weaknesses. Over the last few decades the US has become very anti-big business. The harder you make it for manufacturers to manufacture the more likely they will move manufacturing out of the US.

          I just lost a good friend who spent his life designing robotics for the automotive industry. The majority of his work was for foreign manufacturer's. In other words not only is the labor cheaper but the manufacturing is more efficient. Now to that add EPA stuff and lawsuits and soon no one wants to manufacture in the US.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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          • #20
            Re: Go Get Another Job!

            "Then the consumer will have to decide what's important to them."

            Yes, feeding and clothing their neighbor and helping to build their own economy or contributing to global pollution and the enslavement of people half-way around the world, when you boil it down that it the basic choice.
            I choose the former.
            "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
            John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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            • #21
              Re: Go Get Another Job!

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              I disagree, I believe we need to compete with our strengths not our weaknesses. Over the last few decades the US has become very anti-big business. The harder you make it for manufacturers to manufacture the more likely they will move manufacturing out of the US.

              I just lost a good friend who spent his life designing robotics for the automotive industry. The majority of his work was for foreign manufacturer's. In other words not only is the labor cheaper but the manufacturing is more efficient. Now to that add EPA stuff and lawsuits and soon no one wants to manufacture in the US.

              Mark
              Mark, I am open to listen and learn but I do have some questions. First of all I'm sorry for your loss. I see our standard of living as a liablity even if we did away with the EPA, OSHA and lawsuits. So imagine manufacturers can pollute without fear of government or private lawsuits, they can endanger workers without OSHA , Unions or workers suing. You still have high labor costs unless you are will to have American workers live in poverty like their third world counter parts. Please tell em what are our strenghts that will employ the masses and allow for hard working Americans to retain decent paying jobs and benefits? I can't think of any, but I'm open to listen and learn. My opinion is that Unions here worked hard to get workers treated humanly with good pay and benefits and safe working conditions. Some lawsuits against manufacturers stopped years of water and air pollution which lead to cancers and other illnesses. I'm not talking about frivilous lawsuits but the ones that brought to light the senseless deaths of innocent people who lived by some of these manufacturing plants. I think that instead of throwing away all that was fought for so bravely, and rightly, that the rest of the world have the same protections. Do you think it's right for manufacturers to make a better profit, not from cheaper labor costs elsewehre but by being able to pollute freely? Doing the right thing does not come without a cost. I'm done grandstanding, and I really want to know what you think we as a workforce can do to survive? Thanks.

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              • #22
                Re: Go Get Another Job!

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Mark, I am open to listen and learn but I do have some questions. First of all I'm sorry for your loss. I see our standard of living as a liablity even if we did away with the EPA, OSHA and lawsuits. So imagine manufacturers can pollute without fear of government or private lawsuits, they can endanger workers without OSHA , Unions or workers suing. You still have high labor costs unless you are will to have American workers live in poverty like their third world counter parts. Please tell em what are our strenghts that will employ the masses and allow for hard working Americans to retain decent paying jobs and benefits? I can't think of any, but I'm open to listen and learn. My opinion is that Unions here worked hard to get workers treated humanly with good pay and benefits and safe working conditions. Some lawsuits against manufacturers stopped years of water and air pollution which lead to cancers and other illnesses. I'm not talking about frivilous lawsuits but the ones that brought to light the senseless deaths of innocent people who lived by some of these manufacturing plants. I think that instead of throwing away all that was fought for so bravely, and rightly, that the rest of the world have the same protections. Do you think it's right for manufacturers to make a better profit, not from cheaper labor costs elsewehre but by being able to pollute freely? Doing the right thing does not come without a cost. I'm done grandstanding, and I really want to know what you think we as a workforce can do to survive? Thanks.
                I'm really not suggesting we do away with anything. I am speaking in general terms not just automotive. We have already lost the unskilled labor battle against China and other countries where it is cheap to do business. We need to transition away from mundane labor and move towards higher efficiency and higher quality in our work force. We need our products to be attractive to consumers because they are a better value regardless of cost. As long as we continue to produce products at lower quality and higher price we will continue to lose manufacturing jobs.

                All of my cars, trucks and motorcycles are from American manufacturers and I give up a little to do that but it feels like the right thing to do. My guess is most of the electronics in my home are from foreign manufacturer because that is all that is available anymore. Can you imagine if an American manufacturer came out with the next big technology in televisions and kept the manufacturing local? That is what we should be able to do better than anyone else.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                • #23
                  Re: Go Get Another Job!

                  Originally posted by cpw View Post
                  To me the fundamental "problem" is that our standard of living is so much higher than in other places, thus it costs more to make it here. If our standard of living was the same, then things wouldn't be cheaper to produce overseas. As much as I complain about China, I think our problems are better ones to have than having most of your population in poverty.

                  BTW, China is injecting "stimulus" equivalent to 1/6 of GDP into their economy because of a fall in exports.
                  I think Charles said it best here. I couldn't have said it better.
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                  • #24
                    Re: Go Get Another Job!

                    To quote that great philosopher, Plumberscrack; Life is not always as convenient as we would like, but it's much better to work on a solution, than to dwell on the problem that won't fix itself.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Go Get Another Job!

                      When I started this Thread I was upset with the nasty and disrespectful comment made towards the Union leader, as if getting another job was simple or realistic. I appreciate the open minded responses, but feel we are no closer to ideas of how the loss of American jobs will stop or how or when things will improve. I don't expect any of us have the answerss but maybe just some ideas. Mark did suggest we have to focus on quality rather than the quantiy produced by china, and I'm wondering what industries will afford such opportunities for the masses of unemployed? I know there is talk of another stimulus package but this one would go to the states to be used to hire folks to rebuild infrastructure. Could there be large volumes of jobs awaiting in alternative energy? What do you do with the growing number of unemployed? I would like to hear and see plans to build nuclear power plants, high production solar panel plants and employers who can make these alternatives less expensive while at the same time hiring and retraining Americans. Just a thought.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Go Get Another Job!

                        "...Can you imagine if an American manufacturer came out with the next big technology in
                        televisions and kept the manufacturing local? That is what we should be able to do better than anyone else. ..."

                        That's what Delta has done with their newest Table Saw, it's made in the USA.
                        http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/...ld+Unisaw.aspx
                        [read the comments at the end of this blog entry. ANYONE thinking of manufacturing a product here should read it.]

                        Delta just brought it out at the IWF show in September, not much out there on the street
                        that I can find yet but there have been a few articles in the WWing mags about it.
                        Last edited by Bob D.; 11-10-2008, 10:17 PM.
                        "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                        John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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                        • #27
                          Re: Go Get Another Job!

                          Perhaps if the government wasn't taxing the living crap out of GM (and many other big corporations) and making them jump through hoops with all their mandated regulations, they would be profitable. You can directly link the downfall of most large companies with taxation and regulation. Something were likely to see a whole lot more of in the next 4 years.

                          Frankie, As a defender of the Democratic party I find it strange that you are coming to the defense of GM. An obviously greedy corporation that rapes it's workers and pollutes the air. Since when do you guys care if a few thousand loose their jobs? You want to bring back the industrial base and prosparity to this nation? Then stop voting for legislators hell bent on punishing business with thier infantile and ignorant notion that taxation is salvation for the middle class.
                          sigpic

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                          • #28
                            Re: Go Get Another Job!

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            Perhaps if the government wasn't taxing the living crap out of GM (and many other big corporations) and making them jump through hoops with all their mandated regulations, they would be profitable. You can directly link the downfall of most large companies with taxation and regulation. Something were likely to see a whole lot more of in the next 4 years.

                            Frankie, As a defender of the Democratic party I find it strange that you are coming to the defense of GM. An obviously greedy corporation that rapes it's workers and pollutes the air. Since when do you guys care if a few thousand loose their jobs? You want to bring back the industrial base and prosparity to this nation? Then stop voting for legislators hell bent on punishing business with thier infantile and ignorant notion that taxation is salvation for the middle class.
                            I admit that I'm more of a moderate than republican or democrat but given many of my posts I understand your reasoning. I don't like what the dems have done so far, and I was very displeased with what has happened during the last few years which left me very unhappy with both parties and candidates. Neither of them was going to secure our borders and resolve the issue of illegals, but McCain was going to tax my medical benefits. Now Obama may prove to be more of a problem and if that's the case, next election he will lose. Regarding GM, I think if our economy was better people would still be buying their vehicles and they would still be conducting business. I think the greater problem they have is not taxes and gov't regulations but poor engineering and reputation compared to the competition. That was probably changing but then the economy took a nose dive. All my working life wheter it was democrats or republicans in the white house I have paid a good one third of my income to support my government and support people who did not work. The government needs our tax dollars to fight wars, keep us safe and conduct business such as the giveaways to foreign governments and bailouts of poorly run businesses here. The whole system is unfair and broken in my opinion. Maybe a flat tax would be better? I do care if a few thousand lose their jobs, I also care about the Millions who have lost their jobs thanks to NAFTA, outsourcing and the short sightedness of our legislators and business leaders who sought out cheap labor and a free pass to endanger workers and pollute elsewhere. All that is coming back to bite them in the butt as consumers no longer can afford the products they don't make. I think some of what I beleive make sense but I respect those who feel if taxes were reduced and the EPA and OSHA were gone that our country would rise up from the ashes.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Go Get Another Job!

                              Actually, you're starting to sound like a libertarian

                              The entire situation can be summed up in one word.

                              GRAFT

                              Congress, both parties, is filled with self serving crooks that have sold the nation down the river for personal power and profit. Why we get all riled up over presidential races mystifies me. It's the crooks in congress that we keep re-electing year after year that cause all the problems.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Re: Go Get Another Job!

                                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                                Actually, you're starting to sound like a libertarian

                                The entire situation can be summed up in one word.

                                GRAFT

                                Congress, both parties, is filled with self serving crooks that have sold the nation down the river for personal power and profit. Why we get all riled up over presidential races mystifies me. It's the crooks in congress that we keep re-electing year after year that cause all the problems.
                                Had to look that one upNot sure about the Libertarian thing but I agree with everything else you said. I'd like to think this time things will be different and maybe some progress will be made. What are our chances of seeing this thing turn around, slim to none? Sure would be nice to hear some positive comments mixed in with all these layoffs and problems with the economy.

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