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Renamed - The cost of fuel today

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  • #31
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by cdia1960 View Post
    While everyone post great points on the cost of fuel. It all boils down to one simple word GREED.

    OK I know they made record profits, but if your working on a set percentage, for you profit margin, and you have a record year, sell more product than you have ever sold at any other time in the past, and the product you have the highest input cost for the raw product you have ever had, thus raises the amount of dollars of profit on the set percentage.

    is that greed?

    if you are in business, (I assume you in it to make some money), say plumber, and your running a shop, and doing OK but just some where in the average range, according to the trade magazines, but you bid on a government contract, one year, and it turns out to multiply into a huge project, and for a few year period, you sell more than any body else and do more busness than any one else has ever done in the city, but your sill jsut making you few % per product, but your selling truck loads, and truck loads of this item, or job,
    you have record profits, and have made the most you have ever made in your existence in busness,


    OK the oil prices are now down, the consumption is down, but the % of product is more than likely still the same, and may even be below or becoming below the cost of operations,

    are they greedy now?

    Also who is big oil, yes I know there large world wide companies, but there also people like you and me, who have invested in there stock, and I bet when the price was going up and the stock was up and dividends were paying out, were you complaining?
    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
    attributed to Samuel Johnson
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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    • #32
      Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

      Originally posted by cpw View Post
      There are going to be lots of projects out there that don't make sense at $35/bbl, because they need something like $50 to make any money.
      I'm not an economist, but the other day I listened in to some big shot market analysts and the general consensus was that were the oil price really a result of cost to demand relation then gas would have to cost around $0.25. Any additional prices is market speculation, psychology and opportunism. They also suggested that, while the price will certainly go up, it will happen a bit slower since a lot of those who speculated before the price tumbled to $35/bbl lost money so there is less of those types to drive up the prices.

      In regards to other comments about the prices being fair because some bums buy beer and such... well, they don't buy bear because gas is cheap or expensive. Meanwhile, millions of people in the US and Canada find themselves on the border line between being able to afford the commute and breaking even by applying for unemployment and such. If someone works close to minimum wage then the gas price is a significant factor.

      The social aid system could surely do with some fixes, but high gas prices are not the way to fix it. Any number of options might as well be used. How about increasing baby food to, say, $100 per day? That ought to get them single moms going and looking for work, huh? Or increase the price of woodworking tools. Why not pay $10,000 for a basic table saw. If you're a pro you'll eventually get some return on your investment. All you have to do is just work your rear end a bit harder. If you're a hobbyist then the table saw is not a necessity.
      In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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      • #33
        Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

        Originally posted by darius View Post
        I'm not an economist, but the other day I listened in to some big shot market analysts and the general consensus was that were the oil price really a result of cost to demand relation then gas would have to cost around $0.25. Any additional prices is market speculation, psychology and opportunism. They also suggested that, while the price will certainly go up, it will happen a bit slower since a lot of those who speculated before the price tumbled to $35/bbl lost money so there is less of those types to drive up the prices.
        I don't feel bad at all for those people who lost their shirt on commodities. I do think it shows a discongruity in the bailouts. You have all these people saying we need to pump up housing prices and stock prices to match their bubble highs; but no one is saying anything about commodities.

        I'm not sure I buy the $0.25/gallon gasoline. Over the last few years we've been getting oil from Canadian oil sands, which costs $28/bbl. That is much more costly than SA oil ($2/bbl). If the demand calls for producing oil sands, we are going to have at least $.67/gallon just to get that out of the ground built into the price (it doesn't matter if SA can get oil out for $2/bbl if someone is willing to pay $28/bbl). If these expensive projects can't make money, that supply will be taken off the market.

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        • #34
          Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

          All interesting stuff. Anyone care to comment on the fact that we were being told it is a national security issue if we don't give up our coast for exploitation to the companies who, as is their right--hell even their duty, were making record profits while our economy was damaged by this crisis a few months back? Yes prices will go up again, are we just waiting for that to prove what they told us is true? Because I don't claim to be an expert, I was in here asking questions from my own bias point of view during the peak of this thing. A lot of people who are also not experts were pretty sure that they had good information about what it all meant and what was next and what we had to do to get out of it. I have obvious political leanings. I have an obvious distrust of politicians as mouthpieces for entities that are get rich from these "crisis" and have the chance to get richer off the reaction. Hitting people in their pocket book combined with fear are the two most powerful tools for controlling a population, and both were there for the manipulating.

          I am not mad if oil companies, you, your family members or the great people of this country made money in the recent inflated market. I am not mad if you have a vested interest in oil exploration, drilling, and oil in general. I am sick of being lied to though, and I am saddened when I see the last big lie get swept under the rug in preparation for the next one with no reflection.

          Drag me out into discussions about poor people being lazy, about bosses having a right to profit, about price per barrel and cost to retrieve it. It is all beside the point I am trying to make, and frankly you guys were just as sure about a lot of other things a few months back that turned out to be wrong. Charts on production by country and explinations on why oil really should be that expensive and we had to give up the oil fields to private industry right away have all turned to vapor. It was speculation driven by misinformation and the result of it--panic and inflation--was used for political purposes. Blaming the companies for profiting or trying to manipulate the situation is like blaming a cow for mooing. Blaming a politician for using an opportunity to create wealth for his/her backers is the same. I blame each and every one of us for taking it. If you are getting rich from it, you are off the hook--I'm not mad at you but I also don't care what you say anymore.

          Eli
          A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

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          • #35
            Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

            It's this simple. As has been stated, in that climate the companies made the most profit ever. Why would they EVER want to lower the price for the consumer then through uncontrolled production? Wouldn't they, even when given access to the coasts, continue to create the best climate for themselves to make money? They, should, right? It has been strongly established that it is their right to make as much $ as possible from their hard work, and to question that is pinko. That being the case how dare you claim that giving them more land and sea to exploit will help the frickin consumer in the end? Because that is the lie that was being told. That is how they were sliding it past our gullet as a necessity. The only way we as the people who need this commodity can get it at an affordable price is to give them access to more of it. Once they can get at it they'll sell it on the cheap! Do more work for less profit! Turn the market to an unfavorable position for themselves! And not only that, the reason it doubled is mostly because we haven't let them have the coasts yet, as stupid environmentalist.

            Who is supposed to be that stupid? Me or the oil companies?
            Last edited by woodenstickers; 01-26-2009, 05:33 PM.
            A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

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            • #36
              Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

              You presuppose that all the oil companies will collude to restrict production into a particular price bad. This isn't a terrible assumption as that is what OPEC is all about. To me, the question becomes will the collusion of just OPEC be enough to entirely set the price; when other market participants are not permitted to collude on price (e.g., US companies).

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              • #37
                Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                I like saying collude.

                J.C.

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                • #38
                  Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                  Originally posted by cpw View Post
                  You presuppose that all the oil companies will collude to restrict production into a particular price bad. This isn't a terrible assumption as that is what OPEC is all about. To me, the question becomes will the collusion of just OPEC be enough to entirely set the price; when other market participants are not permitted to collude on price (e.g., US companies).
                  I agree. But it was stated several times on this topic that the reason refineries were being shut down is that environmental regulation was making it too expensive to keep them open. Whether it is OPEC or environmentalists, the per barrel going up means more $ in the pocket of domestic companies. Clearly. So why would those companies want to change that so bad? That is the way were being sold this whole thing--opening up drilling is the only way to make fuel affordable again. Your point is valid about taking some control away from OPEC as is the earlier point about controlling our own energy supply and tech. But WE wont. Private industry that has no moral obligation to the country or it's people will.

                  Eli
                  Last edited by woodenstickers; 01-26-2009, 06:07 PM.
                  A good carpenter makes few mistakes, a great carpenter can fix his own.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                    Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
                    I agree. But it was stated several times on this topic that the reason refineries were being shut down is that environmental regulation was making it too expensive to keep them open. Whether it is OPEC or environmentalists, the per barrel going up means more $ in the pocket of domestic companies. Clearly. So why would those companies want to change that so bad? That is the way were being sold this whole thing--opening up drilling is the only way to make fuel affordable again. Your point is valid about taking some control away from OPEC as is the earlier point about controlling our own energy supply and tech. But WE wont. Private industry that has no moral obligation to the country or it's people will.

                    Eli
                    That works if the whole industry is looking out for the industries interest. But I think that Exxon, BP, and Valero will all have an incentive to try to take each others share. If that doesn't hold up, then my logic falls apart.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                      I've read about many things and usually have a good understanding of what I'm reading.

                      However there are two things I read about but never understand; taxes, and gas prices.

                      For taxes, I hire an accountant.

                      For gas, I'm just happy prices are low right now.

                      Lenny

                      Pronounced A-Bear Drain Care

                      I know, it doesn't make sense.


                      http://www.hebertdraincare.com

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                      • #41
                        Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                        I guess we see it from 2 different points. I see high oil prices and people wanting to force me to subsidize wind farms and alternative energy. You see high oil prices and people trying to open up our shores to drilling. I think the green folks won from the high oil prices. I'm sure we won't drill off the california or florida coasts, but I bet i'm going to have to subsidize the windmill farms and ethenol plants and what have you. You are right I did not know until the $100.00 a barrel oil that it was market speculation causing it. I'm just suprized our media couldn't inform us better.......... Now I wounder what they wanted windmill farms or offshore oil rigs???

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                        • #42
                          Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

                          Who knows if,when, & where the next cat 5 hurricane is going to wipe out oil refineries, or a whole city?
                          Who knows what Russia, Georgia, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, CANADA, Mexico, etc., are going to do. They usually can't even control what's going on in their own countries.
                          Who knows what Al Gore is going to say next!

                          We react to the circumstances of the moment. So does the President I think. He has to. And the more powerful one is, the more their words carry weight. Just look at what an off the cuff remark from someone like Greenspan did.

                          So when we are in the middle of rapidly rising fuel costs, a simple statement like "we are going to open up off shore drilling" can have tremendous effect.

                          I think it was a crisis, I think it is still a matter of grave concern. I think it opened our eyes to: "hey, why have we been sitting on our asses for 30 years". We all felt vulnerable as hell. I felt that way when gas shot up to $5/gal after Katrina.

                          So, I still say, build more nuclear for power, build more refineries for fuel, drill for more oil, HERE, for manufacturing.

                          We had a wake up call. It seems we've gone back to sleep.
                          "Man will do many things to get himself loved, he will do all things to get himself envied." Mark Twain

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