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Renamed - The cost of fuel today

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  • SlimTim
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Who knows if,when, & where the next cat 5 hurricane is going to wipe out oil refineries, or a whole city?
    Who knows what Russia, Georgia, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, CANADA, Mexico, etc., are going to do. They usually can't even control what's going on in their own countries.
    Who knows what Al Gore is going to say next!

    We react to the circumstances of the moment. So does the President I think. He has to. And the more powerful one is, the more their words carry weight. Just look at what an off the cuff remark from someone like Greenspan did.

    So when we are in the middle of rapidly rising fuel costs, a simple statement like "we are going to open up off shore drilling" can have tremendous effect.

    I think it was a crisis, I think it is still a matter of grave concern. I think it opened our eyes to: "hey, why have we been sitting on our asses for 30 years". We all felt vulnerable as hell. I felt that way when gas shot up to $5/gal after Katrina.

    So, I still say, build more nuclear for power, build more refineries for fuel, drill for more oil, HERE, for manufacturing.

    We had a wake up call. It seems we've gone back to sleep.

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  • saysflushable
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    I guess we see it from 2 different points. I see high oil prices and people wanting to force me to subsidize wind farms and alternative energy. You see high oil prices and people trying to open up our shores to drilling. I think the green folks won from the high oil prices. I'm sure we won't drill off the california or florida coasts, but I bet i'm going to have to subsidize the windmill farms and ethenol plants and what have you. You are right I did not know until the $100.00 a barrel oil that it was market speculation causing it. I'm just suprized our media couldn't inform us better.......... Now I wounder what they wanted windmill farms or offshore oil rigs???

    Leave a comment:


  • HebertDrainCare
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    I've read about many things and usually have a good understanding of what I'm reading.

    However there are two things I read about but never understand; taxes, and gas prices.

    For taxes, I hire an accountant.

    For gas, I'm just happy prices are low right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • cpw
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
    I agree. But it was stated several times on this topic that the reason refineries were being shut down is that environmental regulation was making it too expensive to keep them open. Whether it is OPEC or environmentalists, the per barrel going up means more $ in the pocket of domestic companies. Clearly. So why would those companies want to change that so bad? That is the way were being sold this whole thing--opening up drilling is the only way to make fuel affordable again. Your point is valid about taking some control away from OPEC as is the earlier point about controlling our own energy supply and tech. But WE wont. Private industry that has no moral obligation to the country or it's people will.

    Eli
    That works if the whole industry is looking out for the industries interest. But I think that Exxon, BP, and Valero will all have an incentive to try to take each others share. If that doesn't hold up, then my logic falls apart.

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  • woodenstickers
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by cpw View Post
    You presuppose that all the oil companies will collude to restrict production into a particular price bad. This isn't a terrible assumption as that is what OPEC is all about. To me, the question becomes will the collusion of just OPEC be enough to entirely set the price; when other market participants are not permitted to collude on price (e.g., US companies).
    I agree. But it was stated several times on this topic that the reason refineries were being shut down is that environmental regulation was making it too expensive to keep them open. Whether it is OPEC or environmentalists, the per barrel going up means more $ in the pocket of domestic companies. Clearly. So why would those companies want to change that so bad? That is the way were being sold this whole thing--opening up drilling is the only way to make fuel affordable again. Your point is valid about taking some control away from OPEC as is the earlier point about controlling our own energy supply and tech. But WE wont. Private industry that has no moral obligation to the country or it's people will.

    Eli
    Last edited by woodenstickers; 01-26-2009, 05:07 PM.

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  • BobsPlumbing
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    I like saying collude.

    J.C.

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  • cpw
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    You presuppose that all the oil companies will collude to restrict production into a particular price bad. This isn't a terrible assumption as that is what OPEC is all about. To me, the question becomes will the collusion of just OPEC be enough to entirely set the price; when other market participants are not permitted to collude on price (e.g., US companies).

    Leave a comment:


  • woodenstickers
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    It's this simple. As has been stated, in that climate the companies made the most profit ever. Why would they EVER want to lower the price for the consumer then through uncontrolled production? Wouldn't they, even when given access to the coasts, continue to create the best climate for themselves to make money? They, should, right? It has been strongly established that it is their right to make as much $ as possible from their hard work, and to question that is pinko. That being the case how dare you claim that giving them more land and sea to exploit will help the frickin consumer in the end? Because that is the lie that was being told. That is how they were sliding it past our gullet as a necessity. The only way we as the people who need this commodity can get it at an affordable price is to give them access to more of it. Once they can get at it they'll sell it on the cheap! Do more work for less profit! Turn the market to an unfavorable position for themselves! And not only that, the reason it doubled is mostly because we haven't let them have the coasts yet, as stupid environmentalist.

    Who is supposed to be that stupid? Me or the oil companies?
    Last edited by woodenstickers; 01-26-2009, 04:33 PM.

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  • woodenstickers
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    All interesting stuff. Anyone care to comment on the fact that we were being told it is a national security issue if we don't give up our coast for exploitation to the companies who, as is their right--hell even their duty, were making record profits while our economy was damaged by this crisis a few months back? Yes prices will go up again, are we just waiting for that to prove what they told us is true? Because I don't claim to be an expert, I was in here asking questions from my own bias point of view during the peak of this thing. A lot of people who are also not experts were pretty sure that they had good information about what it all meant and what was next and what we had to do to get out of it. I have obvious political leanings. I have an obvious distrust of politicians as mouthpieces for entities that are get rich from these "crisis" and have the chance to get richer off the reaction. Hitting people in their pocket book combined with fear are the two most powerful tools for controlling a population, and both were there for the manipulating.

    I am not mad if oil companies, you, your family members or the great people of this country made money in the recent inflated market. I am not mad if you have a vested interest in oil exploration, drilling, and oil in general. I am sick of being lied to though, and I am saddened when I see the last big lie get swept under the rug in preparation for the next one with no reflection.

    Drag me out into discussions about poor people being lazy, about bosses having a right to profit, about price per barrel and cost to retrieve it. It is all beside the point I am trying to make, and frankly you guys were just as sure about a lot of other things a few months back that turned out to be wrong. Charts on production by country and explinations on why oil really should be that expensive and we had to give up the oil fields to private industry right away have all turned to vapor. It was speculation driven by misinformation and the result of it--panic and inflation--was used for political purposes. Blaming the companies for profiting or trying to manipulate the situation is like blaming a cow for mooing. Blaming a politician for using an opportunity to create wealth for his/her backers is the same. I blame each and every one of us for taking it. If you are getting rich from it, you are off the hook--I'm not mad at you but I also don't care what you say anymore.

    Eli

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  • cpw
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by darius View Post
    I'm not an economist, but the other day I listened in to some big shot market analysts and the general consensus was that were the oil price really a result of cost to demand relation then gas would have to cost around $0.25. Any additional prices is market speculation, psychology and opportunism. They also suggested that, while the price will certainly go up, it will happen a bit slower since a lot of those who speculated before the price tumbled to $35/bbl lost money so there is less of those types to drive up the prices.
    I don't feel bad at all for those people who lost their shirt on commodities. I do think it shows a discongruity in the bailouts. You have all these people saying we need to pump up housing prices and stock prices to match their bubble highs; but no one is saying anything about commodities.

    I'm not sure I buy the $0.25/gallon gasoline. Over the last few years we've been getting oil from Canadian oil sands, which costs $28/bbl. That is much more costly than SA oil ($2/bbl). If the demand calls for producing oil sands, we are going to have at least $.67/gallon just to get that out of the ground built into the price (it doesn't matter if SA can get oil out for $2/bbl if someone is willing to pay $28/bbl). If these expensive projects can't make money, that supply will be taken off the market.

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  • darius
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by cpw View Post
    There are going to be lots of projects out there that don't make sense at $35/bbl, because they need something like $50 to make any money.
    I'm not an economist, but the other day I listened in to some big shot market analysts and the general consensus was that were the oil price really a result of cost to demand relation then gas would have to cost around $0.25. Any additional prices is market speculation, psychology and opportunism. They also suggested that, while the price will certainly go up, it will happen a bit slower since a lot of those who speculated before the price tumbled to $35/bbl lost money so there is less of those types to drive up the prices.

    In regards to other comments about the prices being fair because some bums buy beer and such... well, they don't buy bear because gas is cheap or expensive. Meanwhile, millions of people in the US and Canada find themselves on the border line between being able to afford the commute and breaking even by applying for unemployment and such. If someone works close to minimum wage then the gas price is a significant factor.

    The social aid system could surely do with some fixes, but high gas prices are not the way to fix it. Any number of options might as well be used. How about increasing baby food to, say, $100 per day? That ought to get them single moms going and looking for work, huh? Or increase the price of woodworking tools. Why not pay $10,000 for a basic table saw. If you're a pro you'll eventually get some return on your investment. All you have to do is just work your rear end a bit harder. If you're a hobbyist then the table saw is not a necessity.

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  • BHD
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by cdia1960 View Post
    While everyone post great points on the cost of fuel. It all boils down to one simple word GREED.

    OK I know they made record profits, but if your working on a set percentage, for you profit margin, and you have a record year, sell more product than you have ever sold at any other time in the past, and the product you have the highest input cost for the raw product you have ever had, thus raises the amount of dollars of profit on the set percentage.

    is that greed?

    if you are in business, (I assume you in it to make some money), say plumber, and your running a shop, and doing OK but just some where in the average range, according to the trade magazines, but you bid on a government contract, one year, and it turns out to multiply into a huge project, and for a few year period, you sell more than any body else and do more busness than any one else has ever done in the city, but your sill jsut making you few % per product, but your selling truck loads, and truck loads of this item, or job,
    you have record profits, and have made the most you have ever made in your existence in busness,


    OK the oil prices are now down, the consumption is down, but the % of product is more than likely still the same, and may even be below or becoming below the cost of operations,

    are they greedy now?

    Also who is big oil, yes I know there large world wide companies, but there also people like you and me, who have invested in there stock, and I bet when the price was going up and the stock was up and dividends were paying out, were you complaining?

    Leave a comment:


  • cpw
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    Originally posted by woodenstickers View Post
    Anyway. A lot was said about oil at the peak of the price that I would like to bring up again now that the smoke has cleared a bit. I guess the idea that we would never see $2.00 gas again was wrong. I guess the idea that we had to drill in order to see lower prices was wrong. I guess the idea that it was all because environmentalists made it impossible for the free market to work is wrong.
    I think oil prices will likely increase. At this point, if you are willing to take delivery of oil and hold it for a few months; you can make money, because future contracts for months ahead are more than the prices now. Last year when we had lots of demand, to reduce prices we needed more supply. Now that demand has dropped off we have excess supply. When the global economy expands again, if we have no alternatives to foreign oil; the price will go back up.

    Also, I think that there is a lag between prices and the supply; which will make things go back up. There are going to be lots of projects out there that don't make sense at $35/bbl, because they need something like $50 to make any money. Once those go offline, the supply vs. demand will decrease. I'm not sure that I buy OPEC can completely control the market, but maybe they'll have enough discipline to make the price go up. I don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Frankiarmz
    replied
    Re: kinda political...too soon?

    Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
    Why don't you start writing jokes for comedy central


    These same people,


    they pay $4 for a bag of potato chips

    $1.39 for a candy bar

    $1.89 for a powerbar *for the health nuts out there*


    And to top it off? These "poor" people that can't afford to drive to the doctors?


    They are the pieces of **** that sit there blowing those desperate dollars that they have to have for gas playing lottery scratch offs, just waiting to hit the "big" one.


    I for one don't hide the reality of what I see in shopping carts, hands that walk out of every grocery and convenient stores. Don't even get me started on those who smoke, justifying their now $30/week habit because "Times are tough, I'm gonna smoke my way out of it"

    Usually, and most the times people are struggling based on fuel alone? Made decisions in life to not educate, further themselves and took on that choice early on. That's not my effing problem so get off the ****ing road because I got money to make, you're slowing me down.

    "Oh, my heart is heavy" Heard that line of crap before? That's what agenda follows when the price of gas goes up 4 cents and a spendthrift has to drive 8 miles to get that 4 cent differential back.


    Talked to gear junkie one evening in a parking lot at a convenient store.....about 23 adult males bought beer, ALL OF THEM BOUGHT BEER, maybe some nachos. All ages.

    Times can't be that tough because of gas, beer didn't stop selling.


    I certainly don't buy the BS. I ran 3 trucks last year in the thick of it, I bet I paid a grand, maybe $1500 more for fuel. Whoop-de-la-de-dah. So I ate one less fun meal a day.

    Starts with education and it starts with not being a bottom dweller in this world.


    FUEL PRICES CREATED DISCIPLINE FOR THE UNEDUCATED. FUEL PRICES ARE TALKING POLITICAL POINTS, THAT'S IT.
    Dunbar, I was making a point of saying some rude and stupid things in response to the rude and stupid things you said and are saying again in the above post. My wife and millions of other folks had to and have to go for chemo treatments and other out patient procedures and they need to drive. Not everyone has the money to pay $6 for a gallon of gas and they should not have to stop driving to please you. My wife is college educated and neither she nor I am a "bottom dweller". You should understand that being part of a free society "America" there are all sorts of jobs that must be done and appropriate salaries as compensation. Be thankful for your God given health and detemination to follow a lucrative career, but be mindful and respectful of others who live in "our" society. Now if you really want to call me a piece of s..t for working thirty years I can't stop you, the Internet allows some people to be rude and insulting. I think if you and I were face to face and you really knew me you would have a different opinion. I do agree that there are plenty of folks who abuse the almighty dollar and among them are people who never worked, or who are scamming the system. How do we stop the waste without hurting the honest folks who do not have your income? If you don't care or want to stick to your previous opinions that it is a matter of laziness, I do not agree with you.

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  • cdia1960
    replied
    Re: Renamed - The cost of fuel today

    While everyone post great points on the cost of fuel. It all boils down to one simple word GREED.

    Leave a comment:

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