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  • #16
    Re: No Health Insurance

    Charles. Good doctors should definitely be able to demand higher rates!

    Competition brings better product and better pricing.

    J.C.

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    • #17
      Re: No Health Insurance

      Good "Thread" idea. Since we are playing what if, here are my thoughts. If you did away with all HMO's and insurances, right off the bat there would be tens of thousands of folks who work in that industry unemployed. Really, just for a moment think of the shock to the healthcare industry from that perspective before you even begin to consider paying for services rendered? Now to the matter of paying for treatment and surgical procedures, are you trying to provide medical and health care for all Americans or is your goal to simply charge according to ability to pay? Before I try and go into this amazingly complex issue, I'd like to say that while life is precious in general terms there is a price affixed to it by not only the medical and healthcare industries but by individuals and our society. Could we afford to care for children and adults from all income brackets if so much money, energy and effort was not invested into prolonging the life of terminally people and the elderly ( elderly is a vague term for whatever you consider to be old)? Would reducing unwanted pregnancies and abortions and adopting the legalization of assisted suicide free up hospital beds and unburden a system gone haywire? Would putting a cap on malpractice awards reduce the cost of doctor, surgeon and other healthcare fees? In my opinion we can no more afford to provide the same level of healthcare for everyone, (as much as that would be the Christian or humane thing to do), as we can continue to allow the rest of the world to provide us with all our consumer goods and needs. Communism doesn't work, socialized medicine stinks, a once great country that has forgotten how to provide for itself cannot do everything for everyone. Once upon a time years ago there was no health insurance industry, you paid the doctor and you paid the hospital and if you could not pay and had no money maybe the state would step in or a "Charity" might help. There was no middle man complicating things and inflating costs. Once upon a time years ago, we made things in this country, furniture, applicances, clothing, cars, electronics, instruments, toys, and many, many other things that supported workers and businesses and communities and the government. Somewhere along the line during the last forty or so years we've become distracted, busy watching tv, sports, entertainment, busy working and raising families and taking vactions and buying things and more things. During our time of distraction the rest of the world focused on building factories and making what we consumed, they educated their workforce to answer tech and customer phone lines. Important subjects like the housing, auto and healthcare industries will not matter in the long run if we cannot rebuild a strong economy on a rock solid foundation.Bailouts and stimulus plans are a farce and will do as little good to resolve our economic problems as charging more to those who can afford to pay more for healthcare. We are in trouble!

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      • #18
        Re: No Health Insurance

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        Charles. Good doctors should definitely be able to demand higher rates!

        Competition brings better product and better pricing.

        J.C.
        Problem is you can't get rid of the bad doctors easily, and they are out there unfortunately.

        You can probably find out more about a prospective plumbers or electricians performance than a doctor.

        Who just said they took their kid in for a hearing test and got no value out of it. If you had called a plumber to install a new faucet and it leaked you'd be wanting your money back. With doctors we (in general) just take it in stride.

        I went to the Emergency Room one day because I was having severe pain in my shoulder and upper arm and neck. I was driving at the time and only a couple blocks from the hospital so I drive right there and called the wife while en route. The doctor that finally looked at the x-rays 4 hours later said it was nothing and sent me home. Next morning I get a call from the hospital from another doctor saying he has looked at my x-rays and that I should get back there ASAP. Go right to the ER and tell them he is admitting me and to take me to Intensive Care and page him as soon as I get there.

        The first doctor didn't have a clue when it came to reading x-rays. I had three blood clots in my right lung and if they had broke loose and moved I might not be here now.

        The idiot doctor is still there today. The hospital never made a move against him.
        "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
        John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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        • #19
          Re: No Health Insurance

          Originally posted by Bob D. View Post
          Who just said they took their kid in for a hearing test and got no value out of it. If you had called a plumber to install a new faucet and it leaked you'd be wanting your money back. With doctors we (in general) just take it in stride.
          You're right, I finally sent the dipstick a check yesterday after six months.

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          • #20
            Re: No Health Insurance

            What makes me cringe (for the lack of a better word) is the "socialized medicine this, socialize medicine that" approach often used in debates about the US medical system. The term is meant as a scare crow to those who don't have enough understanding what is important to the society, or how other societies in the world work. They all have their negative and positive sides but none, including the US, is perfect. As for "socialized medicine". take France for example. I know, know, just please don't throw in another childish term (the Freedom Fries) in the debate.

            Well, I know first hand how it works in France and it works great in all aspects. The response is prompt. The doctor comes to your house if needed (no extra fees), and the level of medical care is superb. For the record I am not French.

            Another aspect of the frightening word I'd like to mention is the fact that the US is already socialized in so many aspects. You drive on socialized roads, eat socialized food (FDA) and maintain socialized military. All these are maintained from taxpayers money and few would like to suggest that the military should earn their income by, let's say, invading Nigeria and controlling their oil fields.

            It has always made me wonder how it has been throughout human history that so much of nations' wealth was used to kill peoples in other countries, but so little to keep one's own in good health. I would have the nation's health is of paramount strategic importance.
            Last edited by darius; 02-06-2009, 06:39 AM.
            In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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            • #21
              Re: No Health Insurance

              Darius, you bring up some very interesting points. In the early part of my career, I worked in medical research. That's one area where the US excels. We can research the heck out of things. All that research is funded by the pharmaceutical companies, and some by the Feds. NIH is the federal research branch, but there are pharmaceutical-based research studies at just about every large hospital system in the US. Think of Johns Hopkins University Hospital, and you think of a well-respected top-notch hospital that you would trust with your life. That's because they built a reputation with research funds from pharmaceutical companies. That's also why a lot of medicine is so expensive in the US. It's expensive to run research. It's life-saving and tremendously effective. Next time you have to pay full price for a bottle of medicine think about what went into getting that bottle from the lab to your pharmacy. The research being done in the US is not being done off-shore. That's why people from France, Germany, UK, even the Arab Emirates come to the US for health care for the very worst of illnesses. You don't get high-quality research in a socialized medicine environment.

              Yes, our military is what some people would call socialized. It's what I call constitutional. A military is a scary thing, and must therefore be part of a system that can regulate it. We are American, and we are free because we keep a well armed military. You don't fund a truly effective military force with bake sales.

              Socialism is a scary thing for most Americans. The more governmental reach you give the feds, the less personal freedoms you have. Although I feel it's worth mentioning that freedom is a RESPONSIBILITY and must never be taken for granted. We must each do what is required of us to make the whole work. I think that fact has gotten lost over the past 50-60 years.
              I put it all back together better than before. There\'s lots of leftover parts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: No Health Insurance

                I almost cannot imagine a road system which was all privatized. While it may help solve unemployment with toll both agents it would sure take a long time to drive across town. As for France's medical system I am not familiar with it. However, I have heard horror stories about France's cradle to grave socialism and how it is starting to really hurt France.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: No Health Insurance

                  Originally posted by VASandy View Post
                  Think of Johns Hopkins University Hospital, and you think of a well-respected top-notch hospital that you would trust with your life. That's because they built a reputation with research funds from pharmaceutical companies. That's also why a lot of medicine is so expensive in the US. It's expensive to run research.
                  Research certainly costs money, but not as much as the pharma companies would like you to believe. If they chopped TV ads their costs would go down by about 50%. Yes, they spend more on ads than on research. To ad insult to injury, they make people think it's OK to tell people what thye should tel doctors to prescribe to them. What's happened to medical journals and direct pharma-physician relations?


                  [/quote]Next time you have to pay full price for a bottle of medicine think about what went into getting that bottle from the lab to your pharmacy. The research being done in the US is not being done off-shore. That's why people from France, Germany, UK, even the Arab Emirates come to the US for health care for the very worst of illnesses. You don't get high-quality research in a socialized medicine environment.[/quote]

                  Actually, this is popular misconception. In fact, there is plenty of research occuring outside of the US. Look at the top ten pharmaceutical companies and where they do most of their research:

                  1 Johnson and Johnson U.S.
                  2 Pfizer U.S.
                  3 Bayer Germany
                  4 GlaxoSmithKline UK
                  5 Novartis Switzerland
                  6 Sanofi-Aventis France
                  7 Hoffmann–La Roche Switzerland
                  8 AstraZeneca UK/Sweden
                  9 Merck & Co. U.S.
                  10 Abbott Laboratories U.S.

                  Many of those, including the American ones, in fact offshored some of their research facilities to India and China.

                  Out of the countries in that list, only the US does not have "socialized" medicine. All the others do.

                  As for the full price... well, it depends where you buy it. Canadian government had to impose laws to prevent Americans from purchasing prescription drugs online from Canadian pharmacies. As far as I know, the humiliating trips of American seniors to Canada to fill their prescriptions has been somewhat curbed. Long story short, the same drugs, including the US researched and manufactured, cost Canadians between 10 and 20% what Americans have to pay. Nothing to do with the real research to price ratio, but simply whatever the market will bear. Americans will pay more so they are charged more.

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  As for France's medical system I am not familiar with it.
                  It's damn good. And you don't have to wait 6 hours to be admitted by a doctor like I had to numerous times when I lived in the NYC, NY.

                  The last time when I was in France my daughter had some really bad throat infection. A doctor was at our place within 45 minutes. Accompanied by a nurse. He left a bottle of antibiotics and, since we're not French citizens, we had to pay cash. All of $25.00. That included the visit and the meds.

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  However, I have heard horror stories about France's cradle to grave socialism and how it is starting to really hurt France.
                  Yeah, I also heard stories about that witch on the broom and Red Riding Hood.

                  But seriously, France is not without its problems. Are they bigger than those faced by Americans? Depends on what is important to you. To many health certainly is pretty high up on the list of personal priorities. The French are well covered in this respect.
                  In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: No Health Insurance

                    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                    Good to see Carl jump in. Now if I could just find MasterPlumb.

                    Pay the doctor out of pocket? Call a couple of hospitals tomorrow and ask them their price for a gall bladder removal. That way you can decide which one you want to use based on performance, facilities, price, personnel.

                    Just like everything else, right?

                    J.C.
                    Gall bladder removal in hospital,with a in/out(the door)of 18 hours-$18,000.00 as of 16 months ago In Jackson,MS.-----(Just one hospital only)
                    Kenneth Collier
                    Maintenance and Sewer

                    P.O. Box 9441
                    Jackson, MS 39206
                    (601) 613-2678 (Cell)
                    drainman881999@yahoo.com

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: No Health Insurance

                      Originally posted by drainman881999 View Post
                      Gall bladder removal in hospital,with a in/out(the door)of 18 hours-$18,000.00 as of 16 months ago In Jackson,MS.-----(Just one hospital only)
                      It's hard for the average someone to pull that kind of money out of their pockets.

                      A balance should be sought between Profit + Need + income.

                      Most people of any race,creed,or gender wants to pay their way in this life,some needs a little more help than others.But they will pay.
                      Kenneth Collier
                      Maintenance and Sewer

                      P.O. Box 9441
                      Jackson, MS 39206
                      (601) 613-2678 (Cell)
                      drainman881999@yahoo.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: No Health Insurance

                        Do they have insurance that you can buy by the body part.


                        I'm looking for left kidney insurance.


                        Anyone got any, hit me up. word
                        Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: No Health Insurance

                          http://healthcare-economist.com/2008...-world-france/

                          Here is a link to an article which rates France at the top end of affordable health care in the World. However, it also says 92% of the citizens buy secondary insurance to cover the short fall for what is not covered by Universal Health Care (good plan by the way) and the system is still running abut $13,000,000,000 in the red per year. France's population is only 20% of ours so I guess with the same system our system would have an annual deficit of $65,000,000,000. One more factor is while France estimates between 200,000 and 400,000 illegal aliens live in France the number here is estimated to be between12,000,000 and 20,000,000. Regardless of the debate regarding illegal aliens I don't believe either country would let a sick person just go unattended. As such there is addition strains on the system from illegal aliens in both countries.

                          On top of that it says the average doctor in France makes about $51,000 per year. It seems we are definitely talking apples and oranges here. That is only half the amount paid to doctors in my group for their first year out of residency. I would have a hard time telling a new doctor he is not worth $100,000 let alone $51,000. Without getting too personal my sons and son-in-laws working civil service in our area are making over $100,000 per year.

                          At the end of the day I believe Universal Health Care is a great idea which the Government would totally screw up.

                          Mark
                          Last edited by ToUtahNow; 02-06-2009, 02:37 PM.
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: No Health Insurance

                            Originally posted by DUNBAR View Post
                            Do they have insurance that you can buy by the body part.


                            I'm looking for left kidney insurance.


                            Anyone got any, hit me up. word
                            Dunbar, that will be in the new Ridgid Swap Shop.

                            Along with that S.O.B and his "Cheap Nike tennis shoes for you" posting.

                            J.C.

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                            • #29
                              Re: No Health Insurance

                              Cool!


                              I'll go sharpen the knives for removal, harvest of the new organ.
                              Northern Kentucky Plumbers Twitter Feed | Plumbing Videos

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                              • #30
                                Re: No Health Insurance

                                I had bi-lateral knee replacement in late November. The

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