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  • #31
    Re: Reality Hits Home.....

    I need a summary of your statistical evaluations & conclusions TW.

    Why are some people with the same background, education, circumstances & opportunities ending up in different positions of what's termed success in your opinion?

    J.C.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Reality Hits Home.....

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
      I need a summary of your statistical evaluations & conclusions TW.

      Why are some people with the same background, education, circumstances & opportunities ending up in different positions of what's termed success in your opinion?

      J.C.
      It wouldn't surprise me to learn that it is because different persons have different definitions of success. But I really don't know. However research can answer that question because the definition of success would be very narrowly defined.

      In addition even if we were twins raised together with the same general backgrounds, education and opportunities we wouldn't be the same. Notice that I added the word general because that is the operative word. We will never have the exact experiences. Imagine our sister, in a fit of anger, smashed your truck to bits but didn't smash mine. You would have had a different experience than me and the implications of that experience may produce profoundly different outcomes later in life. Now you think that might be a silly analogy but its not. One of my associates had a case which was especially vexing. We discussed the case over and over trying to figure out what was going on with this person. Finally, after a lot of work, it turns out that when the woman was a little girl her brother and she had some kind of argument. Here comes the garbage truck down the road. The brother grabs one of his sister's dolls, runs to the garbage truck and wings the doll in the back as the truck is pulling away. As it turns out the doll was symbolic of something that doesn't fit with this discussion. But just that simple act of throwing the doll away and the sister watching it disappear in the back of the truck was the root cause of a problem
      that had plagued her for many years.

      Tom

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Reality Hits Home.....

        Can't make it make sense to me Tom. You're right on the edge of going "Black Swan" on me.

        Thanks though.

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Reality Hits Home.....

          Tom, You're saying that most first generation immigrants aren't very successful, but that doesn't make any sense. If they weren't very successful, or at least if there life was no better than where ever they came from; most of them would just go back home.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Reality Hits Home.....

            Originally posted by Tom W View Post
            Number one I agree with your assertion that motivated people will succeed. The agency for which I worked established an English as Second Language program that was well attended. (I sat in on a few lessons and for me it was an eye opener when everyone, during the classes, including the teacher who was also from the FSU was sipping vodka.
            Strangely, I used to teach ESL in Brooklyn, NY (Greenpoint School of English) and I never even fathomed such a thing would have been possible. Russians were among my students.

            Originally posted by Tom W View Post
            There was nothing that they didn't know about railroad car wheels - absolutely nothing. But they didn't have as broad a based education as taught at US engineering schools. The education of physicians, veterinarians and college professors to name a few other professions, was similarly based, highly skilled areas of specialization with no broad base.
            What do you mean by "broad based education"? I studied both in my home country and here (Canada and US, including an ivy league school). While at Vanderbilt I could see real science being done, the other schools seemed more like credentialing institutions rather than universities. I also have some experience with UK Universities and I didn't find a whole lot of "broadness". A graduate of a reputable UK school, for instance, could not discuss Chaucer because he didn't choose that course . I was surprised to say the least.

            Or am I understanding the "broadness" incorrectly?

            Originally posted by Tom W View Post
            The differences between the socio/political/educational/economic structures of the FSU and US probably contributed significantly to older immigrants from the FSU not working. Not working translated to a personal lack of self worth which precipitated depression. People who are depressed don't present themselves well to prospective employeers so they don't get jobs.
            I think I'd disagree as to the reasons. They were not working because, likely, they could not get jobs even approximating the level of responsibility and intellectual requirements they had been used to. Unless you are invited by a school or business because of some reasons to fame within a specific discipline. Your regular engineer from FSU would be considered at the same level as a US high school graduate. Not officially, perhaps, but in practice an FSU educated profoessional with 20 years of experience would have lost to a recent US graduate in their job search.

            Been there, done that. My wife was asked to take high school courses to get to a lowly local local college. She has MA in English Lit. from Poland. Yeah, I know, I know but... that was not recognized, despite excellent references from UCLA and Vabderbilt, and despite the fact that our profs in Poland were mostly Americans and Brits from top schools - UCLA, Oxford, Fordham Harvard, to name a few.

            At one point, when applying for another major in my local university I was asked to take TOEFL - a basic test checking whether you know that there is "one book", but "two books". I already had multiple credentials from North American universities, including the one I applied to. I used one valuable part of education I received in North America - I threatened a lawsuit and they apologized.

            Tom,

            I would be also interested in those stats you mentioned. It makes me wonder how the conclusions would look, considering that the US has been the most, or one of the most successful countries - built and ran by immigrants and their children. Even if you consider that 1st generation immigrants do not fare as well as, possibly, as their offspring, I'd say that the offspring's success can be credited to a great degree to their immigrant parents' efforts.
            Last edited by darius; 02-16-2009, 02:38 PM.
            In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Reality Hits Home.....

              Originally posted by darius View Post
              I think I'd disagree as to the reasons. They were not working because, likely, they could not get jobs even approximating the level of responsibility and intellectual requirements they had been used to. Unless you are invited by a school or business because of some reasons to fame within a specific discipline. Your regular engineer from FSU would be considered at the same level as a US high school graduate. Not officially, perhaps, but in practice an FSU educated profoessional with 20 years of experience would have lost to a recent US graduate in their job search.
              Yes, but even in their home country when things go bad (like the FSU) you have manufacturing engineers unloading trucks; because their real job just stopped paying them.

              It also means that we've been able to hire 3 nannies with foreign graduate degrees.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                Originally posted by cpw View Post
                Yes, but even in their home country when things go bad (like the FSU) you have manufacturing engineers unloading trucks; because their real job just stopped paying them.
                During communist times that would happen only as a form of punishment to those who were deemed undesirable by the commie leaders and yes, it broke many lives. Other than that this scenario would have been rare.

                I don't know how it looks now, since the country I left doesn't exist anymore - it changed so much - but I know that there is a saying in my home country. Hard to translate but it's something to this effect: I may be making small change and below my qualifications while I wait for a better opportunity, but if I sit and fart on the sofa nobody will pay me for that even a penny.

                Originally posted by cpw View Post
                It also means that we've been able to hire 3 nannies with foreign graduate degrees.
                Just be careful what they majored in. There is still a fair number of Marxists-Leninists out of work
                In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                  Originally posted by darius View Post
                  During communist times that would happen only as a form of punishment to those who were deemed undesirable by the commie leaders and yes, it broke many lives. Other than that this scenario would have been rare.
                  After the collapse people just stopped getting paid for months at a time.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                    Yes, I heard that happened mostly in Russia, although in some FSU countries too. All of them were in complete disarray. Inflation was so huge that the prices of goods sometimes changed before you finally managed to get from the end of line to the cashier

                    Another thing I just remembered from history. An illustration how in the USSR they forced people to forged hard work and any enterprising efforts. These are facts:

                    In 1930's Stalin decided to prove the alleged superiority of collective farming over individual farms. Selected groups of individuals, usually known for their lax and dormant performance, were asked to work the fields as individual farmers, and to compete with yields achieved by neighboring farms. The results were not what Stalin wanted. The alleged bums, when working individually, achieved stellar results, several times better than the collective farms. Since they did not contribute to proving the social and economic postulates of the Marxist-Leninist theory they were sent to gulags.

                    Bottom line, Russians can work, and will work their asses off if there is a fair reward for that. In fact, on an anecdotal side, one of the guys who worked for me was Russian. He was a helper and worked like a horse. I paid him as much as I paid the tradesmen. He was worth that and then some.
                    In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                      i can only speak of my own experiences. i'm sure there may be many other factors that contribute to so called "laziness".

                      a positve attitude towards life is a major factor regarding success in life. problem solving taught by the caregiver(s) also goes along way.

                      where i live, i see all of the social issues you see down south. the difference is that i can put a name to the people that are social assistance lifers.

                      almost everyone of the people i know that can't work have been abused in one way or another. mental abuse is the worst. those scars can last an entire lifetime.

                      it's hard to see past your own nose if you haven't been allowed to, or taught how to.

                      it really boils down to how a person is raised as a child.

                      teach a child confidence in themselves, success is life is almost a given.

                      teach them to fear, they'll become afraid to venture outside their own door.

                      i strongly believe if people on social assistance were forced to seek councelling or they're cut-off would greatly reduce the strain on the system.

                      Vince

                      i was homeless for 6 years.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                        Speaking of Russians I hired two brothers right off the boat back in the 70s. When they left Russia they tried to bring their fathers plumbing tools with them but they were confiscated and they were told they belonged to the Russian people. I once asked how their inspectors were and he told me you had to pay them off in Vodka. One mistake was one bottle, two mistakes was two bottles.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                          Originally posted by cpw View Post
                          Tom, You're saying that most first generation immigrants aren't very successful, but that doesn't make any sense. If they weren't very successful, or at least if there life was no better than where ever they came from; most of them would just go back home.

                          Sometimes I think what happens is that life interferes with logic. Darius said he came here with $50.00. If he became disillusioned going home was not an option, he like many others, didn't have the dough.

                          As far as life being better, even though economic stability might not have been as the new immigrants had anticipated, it was still better than the persecution they suffered in their homelands.
                          Last edited by Tom W; 02-16-2009, 07:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            Speaking of Russians I hired two brothers right off the boat back in the 70s. When they left Russia they tried to bring their fathers plumbing tools with them but they were confiscated and they were told they belonged to the Russian people. I once asked how their inspectors were and he told me you had to pay them off in Vodka. One mistake was one bottle, two mistakes was two bottles.

                            Mark
                            churchill, manitoba has a port.

                            ships from all over the world go there to load up.

                            i heard there was a chinese ship docked there when 2 of the chinese sailers jumped.

                            well, i guess this really PO'd the captian who took upon himself to "hunt" down the 2 AWOLs.

                            the RCMP had to tell the captain that he couldn't just walk around town with a gun.

                            Vince

                            churchill is a bit of a strange place. 1/2 south, 1/2 arctic.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                              Originally posted by darius View Post
                              Strangely, I used to teach ESL in Brooklyn, NY (Greenpoint School of English) and I never even fathomed such a thing would have been possible. Russians were among my students.

                              Well I know what I saw. I was offered glasses of vodka often.



                              What do you mean by "broad based education"? I studied both in my home country and here (Canada and US, including an ivy league school). While at Vanderbilt I could see real science being done, the other schools seemed more like credentialing institutions rather than universities. I also have some experience with UK Universities and I didn't find a whole lot of "broadness". A graduate of a reputable UK school, for instance, could not discuss Chaucer because he didn't choose that course . I was surprised to say the least. Or am I understanding the "broadness" incorrectly?



                              By broad based education I was referring to the education of engineers. A civil engineer in the US can design roads, bridges, buildings etc. An engineer in the FSU would have a very narrowly defined area of expertise. Please remember that I stated very explicitly I am referring to the old system probably pre 1960 nothing more recent than that. I don't know about articulation agreements between countries in todays culture.



                              I think I'd disagree as to the reasons. They were not working because, likely, they could not get jobs even approximating the level of responsibility and intellectual requirements they had been used to. Unless you are invited by a school or business because of some reasons to fame within a specific discipline. Your regular engineer from FSU would be considered at the same level as a US high school graduate. Not officially, perhaps, but in practice an FSU educated profoessional with 20 years of experience would have lost to a recent US graduate in their job search.
                              Been there, done that. My wife was asked to take high school courses to get to a lowly local local college. She has MA in English Lit. from Poland. Yeah, I know, I know but... that was not recognized, despite excellent references from UCLA and Vabderbilt, and despite the fact that our profs in Poland were mostly Americans and Brits from top schools - UCLA, Oxford, Fordham Harvard, to name a few.



                              I am making no apologies for the system and further I have not attempted to justify it. I have some fundamental disagreements with what little I know about the current policy of acceptance of degrees from other countries. It is almost a protectionist attitude here. Immigrants come here with degrees. The US hasn't invested a dime in their education and the nation as a whole stands to do nothing but reap the benefits of those degrees. But it seems we make it exceptionally difficult for the degrees to be recognized. I could go on and on about that but I will spare you my diatribe.



                              At one point, when applying for another major in my local university I was asked to take TOEFL - a basic test checking whether you know that there is "one book", but "two books". I already had multiple credentials from North American universities, including the one I applied to. I used one valuable part of education I received in North America - I threatened a lawsuit and they apologized.



                              Good for you. If there is one thing we understand in the US it is litigiousness.



                              Tom, I would be also interested in those stats you mentioned. It makes me wonder how the conclusions would look, considering that the US has been the most, or one of the most successful countries - built and ran by immigrants and their children. Even if you consider that 1st generation immigrants do not fare as well as, possibly, as their offspring, I'd say that the offspring's success can be credited to a great degree to their immigrant parents' efforts.

                              Darius, You are an IT guy. I don't have the statistics at hand but I am certain even an old guy like me could do a Google search and come up with the numbers. In the old days to acquire the statistics meant pouring through the stacks in the basement of a library and whining to the reference librarian that you can't find something. You guys today have it easy. (I am trying to sound like my father.)

                              Do you remember in one of my posts I mentioned that second generation immigrants had a group leader who extolled the virtues of education. Well I agree with you to a certain extent that credit for success can be assigned to parents. But since parents were not necessarily conversant with contemporary society it fell to the group leader/mentor to act as a parent figure. So I would modify your contention of parent only and add parent figure.
                              Last edited by Tom W; 02-16-2009, 07:26 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Reality Hits Home.....

                                Tom, all your posts while informative come to no conclusion.

                                You act as if there is no reason for success, no reason for failure, multiple reasons for success, multiple reasons for failure and no reason for people to try to do better irregardless of priveleges or obstacles. All at the same time.

                                Did you ever work for the government?

                                J.C.

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