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  • #16
    Re: Big Cultural Differences

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    I threw in the line about athiests because I feel history whether it is ugly or not must remain truthful and unless I am wrong, it is their efforts that risk omitting key facts. I don't hate or fear atheists, but I don't like to see what I feel are good parts of our culture and past lost to satisfy their agenda.
    Actually, history abounds in examples to the contrary. The so called Dark Ages was the time of about 1000 years of unchallenged dominance of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the adoption of the Christian faith as a state religion in Rome had little to do with people's love for Jesus. It was a political move, and it continued to be politically founded for quite some time.

    Dissent first produced various offshoots aka as Protestant denominations, and eventually lead to rediscovery of the culture lost, or hidden, if you will, for a millennium and change. In the cultural history that period of rediscovery is called the Renaissance - i.e. The Rebirth, eventually followed by The Enlightenment. Both these periods in culture were in fact a reversal from the religious approach which dominated preceding periods. There is almost a rule to this. Every period of human history is a rejection of the period immediately preceding it. We can see it even in our relatively short lifetimes. The hippies in the 60/70's followed by the impetus of commercialism and materialism that seems to be rejected with the new approaches to energy conservation, green panic and all that jazz. Kind rounding up here but you get the idea.

    The difficulty with various denominations is that none considers itself extreme. Most all consider themselves the only True Way (thus we are all hell bound since you cannot be a member of conflicting religions). Such denominations do not deal solely with the spiritual but also with the material. Heck, that includes furniture making which can have religious prerogatives (Shaker style).

    Even those escaped religious persecution became persecutors themselves. For instance the Puritans in Early Colonial America, although to be precise they did not set sail for America to escape any king of persecution. Catholics were slaughtered by the Anglicans, and vice versa.

    I also think that the word "atheist" is a little to big of a bag. An atheist is a person against religion but not all thus labeled are in fact against religion, or the concept of God. It's just that they may understand/feel that God is not necessarily someone described in any of the Judeo-Christian writings, or even someone who gives a hoot about human kind or any other creatures on this or, possibly, on other planets.

    One needs to remember that religions are as old as humanity itself and they came to being when the understanding of the surrounding world was akin to that exercised by a today's 4 year old. Not trying to offend here but an average person of 10,000 years ago (yes, the world is older than the Bible suggests) was a much better recipient of propaganda than an average person today. There is actually, what I consider a scientific proof, that whatever caused the universe to come to being is non-material. Some call it Yahwe, some call it Allah, I don't know what to call it.

    There were great atheists/deists (including some of the Founding Fathers) and there were great men of religion. Some of the most terrifying monsters in human history were religious and some of the worst of human kind were not.

    In my view human culture, while some of it is certainly inspired by religious feelings, will be just fine whether religions survive or not. Likewise, a lot of customs we now have, holidays we celebrate have at their roots little to no source in the religions which adopted those customs. Some them, and a lot of fruit of human cultural effort have been lost forever because of the overwhelming influence of some religious movements which considered the old "heathen" ways sinful and blasphemous.

    If G.W. said that man and fish can coexist, perhaps we may try to see if non-religious people can coexist with persons of one faith or another.
    Last edited by darius; 06-23-2009, 09:22 AM.
    In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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    • #17
      Re: Big Cultural Differences

      Originally posted by darius View Post
      Actually, history abounds in examples to the contrary. The so called Dark Ages was the time of about 1000 years of unchallenged dominance of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the adoption of the Christian faith as a state religion in Rome had little to do with people's love for Jesus. It was a political move, and it continued to be politically founded for

      Dissent first produced various offshoots aka as Protestant denominations, and eventually lead to rediscovery of the culture lost, or hidden, if you will, for a millennium and change. In the cultural history that period of rediscovery is called the Renaissance - i.e. The Rebirth, eventually followed by The Enlightenment. Both these periods in culture were in fact a reversal from the religious approach which dominated preceding periods. There is almost a rule to this. Every period of human history is a rejection of the period immediately preceding it. We can see it even in our relatively short lifetimes. The hippies in the 60/70's followed by the impetus of commercialism and materialism that seems to be rejected with the new approaches to energy conservation, green panic and all that jazz. Kind rounding up here but you get the idea.

      The difficulty with various denominations is that none considers itself extreme. Most all consider themselves the only True Way (thus we are all hell bound since you cannot be a member of conflicting religions). Such denominations do not deal solely with the spiritual but also with the material. Heck, that includes furniture making which can have religious prerogatives (Shaker style).

      Even those escaped religious persecution became persecutors themselves. For instance the Puritans in Early Colonial America, although to be precise they did not set sail for America to escape any king of persecution. Catholics were slaughtered by the

      I also think that the word "atheist" is a little to big of a bag. An atheist is a person against religion but not all thus labeled are in fact against religion, or the concept of God. It's just that they may understand/feel that God is not necessarily someone described in any of the Judeo-Christian writings, or even someone who gives a hoot about human kind or any other creatures on this or, possibly, on other planets.

      One needs to remember that religions are as old as humanity itself and they came to being when the understanding of the surrounding world was akin to that exercised by a today's 4 year old. Not trying to offend here but an average person of 10,000 years ago (yes, the world is older than the Bible suggests) was a much better recipient of propaganda than an average person today. There is actually, what I consider a scientific proof, that whatever caused the universe to come to being is non-material. Some call it Yahwe, some call it Allah, I don't know what to call it.

      There were great atheists/deists (including some of the Founding Fathers) and there were great men of religion. Some of the most terrifying monsters in human history were religious and some of the worst of human kind were not.

      In my view human culture, while some of it is certainly inspired by religious feelings, will be just fine whether religions survive or not. Likewise, a lot of customs we now have, holidays we celebrate have at their roots little to no source in the religions which adopted those customs. Some them, and a lot of fruit of human cultural effort have been lost forever because of the overwhelming influence of some religious movements which considered the old "heathen" ways sinful and blasphemous.

      If G.W. said that man and fish can coexist, perhaps we may try to see if non-religious people can coexist with persons of one faith or another.
      Great post, information and perspective. I agree that cultures especially our young one change, some more than others. While I think history is seen differently by folks, there is only one truth that can be recognized or disputed. I admit that I want to preserve the accuracy of our history and certain cultural traditions. I can only hope that wherever our evolution takes us, it is a place of respect, tolerance and joy.

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      • #18
        Re: Big Cultural Differences

        Thank you for the kind words.
        Some additional remarks, clarifying (or muddying) some points:
        - history is usually a reflection of today
        - history teaches us that history teaches us nothing
        - the only thing sure in this world is change.
        In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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        • #19
          Re: Big Cultural Differences

          great perspective, I just didn't want to see atheists blamed for all societies ills, which does tend to happen in discussion, I'm not myself an atheist, but I do see a lot of hate levelled in that direction. I can understand wanting to preserve ones culture, but the loss of an ideal is not as bad as the persecution of a people, In either direction.
          No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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