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  • #31
    Re: Congressman Still Responding

    Nope, McCain is a career hack and Palin would have been an absolute disaster. Unfortunately, I can't think of any current politician on either side that I would trust at this point.
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    • #32
      Re: Congressman Still Responding

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      (Quote);
      Even if the government controls the system, do you thing the doctors, nurses, technicians, hospitals etc are all going to work for less or at a loss? Why should they?
      Yes, they would work for less and the reason is simple. There would be nobody paying more than the government. If there were then there would be very, very few people like that.

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      Last I knew this was still a republic, not a dictatorship. When you force people to work for less pay, less benefits what you get is poor service from less competent people. I have no doubt at all that under national health care I would be dead now.
      You certainly show little doubt, but I assure you that you there are reasons to think otherwise, other than being indoctrinated by the big industry delivery boys aka some politicians. There are plenty of examples showing that public health works very well and people are not dying en masse contrary to the anti-public health propaganda. They feed you the slogans (socialized health care, obama wants gramma to commit suicide, the government would decide who gets treated). All these slogans are just that - fear mongering slogans.

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      Last year I had 7 bypasses, done by the best heart surgeon on the East coast. (same Dr. did David Letterman's bypasses) in the end the total bill was about a million two hundred thousand. I paid.... drum roll............. $ 657.00, better yet I'm alive and feeling better than I have in twenty years.
      My dad had the same. Well, somewhat the same. A quad bypass. 10 years ago in... Poland. Bypass surgery is no rocket science these days. It's pretty much a routine operation

      Oh, the cost? I have no idea. Free to him. And the doctors who performed the surgery probably make no more than $40K a year (in US dollars). Some of the most sought doctors in Europe. But you won't learn about from your congressman.

      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
      Is that really the American way, or is that the communist socialist way? Take from the have's and give to the deadbeats.
      See? Slogans again.
      In fact the deadbeats are those who operate what is called, strangely, the US banking system,or execs of the automotive industry. The guys get all and any health care they need and in the end guess who's paying for it? That in spite the fact that they push the country one step towards ruin and complete financial collapse. It's not like they have special money trees they harvest as needed.

      I agree with you on a lot what you write about the government. It's too fat and too spendy. Unless there is a major grass roots revolution nothing will change. We're just little pawns on the big boys' game and all of try to make the most out of those few decades we have been given by fate or God.

      Glad your bypass was a great success.
      In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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      • #33
        Re: Congressman Still Responding

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        Nope, McCain is a career hack and Palin would have been an absolute disaster.

        Finally, something we can agree on.

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        • #34
          Re: Congressman Still Responding

          Out health care system is the best and the envy of the world. Nobody goes out of this country for treatment unless that treatment has not been approved. In fact, people come here from all over the world because they know we have the best doctors and the best health care in the world. People flock across the Canadian boarder to get treatment here because they may have to wait 5 years to get treated up there. No, sorry, I know what a great job my government does of running things. They need to leave this one alone.

          It's time to crush the two party system
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          • #35
            Re: Congressman Still Responding

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            Out health care system is the best and the envy of the world.
            I think you are confusing medical technology with health care. These are two different things. France's health care system is generally regarded the best one in the world.

            Just for your interest, here are the WHO ratings of health care systems around the world:

            1 France
            2 Italy
            3 San Marino
            4 Andorra
            5 Malta
            6 Singapore
            7 Spain
            8 Oman
            9 Austria
            10 Japan
            11 Norway
            12 Portugal
            13 Monaco
            14 Greece
            15 Iceland
            16 Luxembourg
            17 Netherlands
            18 United Kingdom
            19 Ireland
            20 Switzerland
            21 Belgium
            22 Colombia
            23 Sweden
            24 Cyprus
            25 Germany
            26 Saudi Arabia
            27 United Arab Emirates
            28 Israel29 Morocco
            30 Canada
            31 Finland
            32 Australia
            33 Chile
            34 Denmark
            35 Dominica
            36 Costa Rica
            37 United States of America

            Some more stats for you (global positions of the US):

            Infant mortality 33
            Medical errors USA is #1 (the highest number of errors globally)

            Do these really sound like the best health care and best doctors in the world?

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            Nobody goes out of this country for treatment unless that treatment has not been approved.
            SO why has the treatment been not approved? Who rejected it? Doctors or bureaucrats in an insurance company? I thought it was between the patient and the doctor to decide which is the best route to help the patient, no?

            In fact a lot of people go abroad to seek health care because it is cheaper, (free to some people with dual citizenship). Americans without dual citizenship go abroad to seek treatment in increasing numbers. Philippines is one of the destinations. The cost of flight, hotels and treatment combined is still a fraction of what it costs in the US for the same procedures.

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            In fact, people come here from all over the world because they know we have the best doctors and the best health care in the world.
            People all over the world cannot afford treatment in the US. Those who could can import any doctor to any country they wish, but that's not a sign of a good health care system.

            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
            People flock across the Canadian boarder to get treatment here because they may have to wait 5 years to get treated up there.


            If we keep going that way then pretty soon the waiting time in Canada will be reported as 500 years.

            Yes, the wait times are longer than in the US. Do you know why?
            Because our Canadian doctors and nursed, you know... the ones which are not the best in the world, are picked up by US medical facilities and lured with higher incomes. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Canadian health care system. The problem is we have a large a powerful neighbor where medicine turned into a business. Those breast enlargements and the vanity of plastic surgery patients are what is driving the prices up. From the genuine need to help people with their health problems we have moved to satisfying the vanity of those who can afford it.

            As for people flocking across borders to satisfy their medical needs - the Canadian government had to impose restrictions on the sale of prescription drugs to US citizens. They would participate in "drug tours" to Canada to save 50 to 90% on drugs. The same drugs, the same manufacturer as the ones in the US. I'd say it's a shame for the richest country in the world to have their seniors seek help outside its borders because they cannot afford it at home.

            Medicine in the US is just like any other industry - profit driven, whatever the market will bear.

            And as a side note - what could possibly be the justification for $1.2M for a heart surgery where the real cost, including staff, accommodations, equipment and medications probably does not exceed $50K.
            Last edited by darius; 08-10-2009, 09:36 AM.
            In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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            • #36
              Re: Congressman Still Responding

              It always comes down to who want's to twist and spin the statistics their own way. I note that the WHO does not bother to give us an explanation as to how they come up with their numbers. Why, well because they have an agenda. Everyone has an agenda. The agenda has nothing to do with your and my welfare. It has everything to do with securing funding and making sure their program and paychecks are assured. I don't trust any ones numbers. What I do trust is mine and people I knows experiences. My wife and I are home care providers for a mentally retarded woman with type 1, uncontrolled diabetes. She averages two doctors appointments a week and at least two to three days in the hospital a month (she is a physical wreck) She never waits to get in, she is in the care of the Lehey clinic, and it cost pennies out of pocket. We get good care, because we paid for it. Now if you are saying that you think governments ( ok you and me, or at least our money) should give our money to others so that they can get good service that's another thing altogether. And then, you would be correct. Our system does not currently work that way (well, yes it does because anyone can go to the emergency room and get treatment at the taxpayers expense)
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              • #37
                Re: Congressman Still Responding

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                It always comes down to who want's to twist and spin the statistics their own way. I note that the WHO does not bother to give us an explanation as to how they come up with their numbers. Why, well because they have an agenda. Everyone has an agenda. The agenda has nothing to do with your and my welfare. It has everything to do with securing funding and making sure their program and paychecks are assured. I don't trust any ones numbers. What I do trust is mine and people I knows experiences. My wife and I are home care providers for a mentally retarded woman with type 1, uncontrolled diabetes. She averages two doctors appointments a week and at least two to three days in the hospital a month (she is a physical wreck) She never waits to get in, she is in the care of the Lehey clinic, and it cost pennies out of pocket. We get good care, because we paid for it. Now if you are saying that you think governments ( ok you and me, or at least our money) should give our money to others so that they can get good service that's another thing altogether. And then, you would be correct. Our system does not currently work that way (well, yes it does because anyone can go to the emergency room and get treatment at the taxpayers expense)
                NHM, you and your wife must be very kind, loving people to take on such responsibility regardless of any monetary compensation. I agree that figures are manipulated to further agendas and good luck finding the truth! I still think while this issue is debated, the more urgent issue of unemployment and ouir economy gets worse. More Americans lose their jobs and their health insurance making the matter worse. When do we get down to the business of rebuilding our economy and more importantly, how?

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                • #38
                  Re: Congressman Still Responding

                  Did a bit of digging. The WHO (world health organization) is an arm of the United Nations founded in 1946. Given the attitude that the UN has had towards the United States in the past 30 years is it any surprise that they would somehow decide that the socialist nation of France should be #1 in the world, though if you ask any one from France it comes as a surprise to them.

                  The World Health Report 2000, prepared by the World Health Organization, presented performance rankings of 191 nations' health care systems. These rankings have been widely cited in public debates about health care, particularly by those interested in reforming the U.S. health care system to resemble more closely those of other countries. Michael Moore, for instance, famously stated in his film SiCKO that the United States placed only 37th in the WHO report. CNN.com, in verifying Moore's claim, noted that France and Canada both placed in the top 10.
                  Those who cite the WHO rankings typically present them as an objective measure of the relative performance of national health care systems. They are not. The WHO rankings depend crucially on a number of underlying assumptions— some of them logically incoherent, some characterized by substantial uncertainty, and some rooted in ideological beliefs and values that not everyone shares.
                  The analysts behind the WHO rankings express the hope that their framework "will lay the basis for a shift from ideological discourse on health policy to a more empirical one." Yet the WHO rankings themselves have a strong ideological component. They include factors that are arguably unrelated to actual health performance, some of which could even improve in response to worse health performance. Even setting those concerns aside, the rankings are still highly sensitive to both measurement error and assumptions about the relative importance of the components. And finally, the WHO rankings reflect implicit value judgments and lifestyle preferences that differ among individuals and across countries.


                  Make no mistake, though the WHO does indeed do some very good work, they have an agenda and a political bias.
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                  • #39
                    Re: Congressman Still Responding

                    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post

                    Make no mistake, though the WHO does indeed do some very good work, they have an agenda and a political bias.
                    So the congressmen have no agenda or political bias other than working hard towards helping the good citizens of their countries? C'mon, let's be serious.

                    Fair deal though. You don't like WHO stats? No problem.

                    Here are some other for you:

                    - infant mortality - US is 37 by WHO, 46 by CIA Fact Book
                    - medical errors are the leading cause of death in the US - almost 100,000 a year (according to Healthgrades and JAMA, both American sources)
                    - US health care worst among 13 industrialized countries (London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine)
                    -U.S. healthcare system "dangerous" compared with two dozen industrialized nations (The Commonwealth Fund's Commission on a High Performance Health System)
                    - Few See U.S. Health Care as 'Best in the World' (
                    The Pew Research Center).

                    We could go on and on. Just don't tell me all those are in some conspiracy. Numbers are numbers.

                    Your personal experience was good, and that's great. Mine has been mixed, and that included waiting for 8 hours with a buddy of mine who had broken ribs cutting into his lungs. 8 hours wait for a critical patient i the best health care system in the world? When I visited France a doctor was at the door within 45 minutes after a phone call. At 2 am. To tend to a case of tonsillitis. Now, that's what I call health care,

                    Again, I think you are confusing superb American medical technology with mediocre American health system. These are not the same things. It's like saying that Poland has the best automotive industry because their Leopard is a top of the line vehicle. Question is - how many can afford to buy a Leopard? The answer is not many, and Poland's automotive industry is insignificant and frankly it sucks.

                    Now tell me, which aspect of health care that you experienced in France or Germany you didn't like the most?






                    In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Congressman Still Responding

                      We can go back and forth with statistics all night long and get nowhere. What I am vehemently opposed to is letting our inept, corrupt, self serving congressmen and women have anything to do with health care. They have an 80 year plus history of screwing up every single program they have ever touched. I recognize that there are inequities and problems in our health care system. I would just prefer to let the marketplace sort them out rather than the crooks we elect. Hell they can't even run their own bank or cafeteria. We would not have the problems with the insurance industry if not for stupid government regulations that make the cost of doing business skyrocket. I can go on for hours but it all gives me a headache after a while.
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                      • #41
                        Re: Congressman Still Responding

                        Well, that's an altogether different story.
                        Years ago I read someone famous say that politicians should be executed just for the desire to be politicians. More and more it sounds like a plan

                        As you know, I have free health care and I'm glad.
                        As for politics - I mostly tuned out. I won't change a thing and I'll save a bit on TV subscriptions. That money is better spend on sand paper and carpenter's glue.
                        In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Congressman Still Responding

                          I just received a phone call from our Congressman on a non-related issue but I could not help but to voice my displeasure with the current Health Care Reform discussions.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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                          • #43
                            Re: Congressman Still Responding

                            Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                            Out health care system is the best and the envy of the world. Nobody goes out of this country for treatment unless that treatment has not been approved. In fact, people come here from all over the world because they know we have the best doctors and the best health care in the world. People flock across the Canadian boarder to get treatment here because they may have to wait 5 years to get treated up there. No, sorry, I know what a great job my government does of running things. They need to leave this one alone.

                            It's time to crush the two party system
                            I'm not sure that "our health care system is the best and envy of the world". Especially if you don't have the means to participate in it.

                            It may produce fantastic results (Numbers can always be skewed to suit one study or the other) but is it great if the majority can't afford the great results?

                            The reform plan may be absolute junk. I have not had a chance to review it. And many of the available private plans that are currently "offered" may be just as junky but better managed because there will be profit involved.

                            So is America better off leaving it all alone? I'm sure if we all leave it as it is then everything will be fine, right? I'm not so sure.

                            What I do know is for the state of NC an employee has full health insurance....AND NO MONTHLY PREMIUM. They DO have small co-pays and yearly maximum out of pocket. Spoke to a close friend recently (works for the state) to confirm all of this.

                            So why does this state participate in a "Socialist" health care insurance system? Seems like the employees would be constantly complaining about it if it's so horrible? I hear very few complaints. I'm asking around though.

                            I can't speak for other areas but for here do you know what's happening?

                            People are taking jobs based on health insurance. Not so much the JOB, the salary, vacation, location etc.

                            I know of 2 tradesmen that had their own businesses, made a living for themselves & families for many years that have recently done this. They did not live extravagantly or were wasteful in visible ways that I'm aware of. Why did they go to work for someone else?

                            Health insurance
                            .

                            Who did they go to work for?

                            The state of NC.

                            You cannot have government insurance that participates in a system that the majority pay for in which the majority is not allowed to participate. Or you will start to see more and more do just as the 2 people I know have done.

                            J.C.

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