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  • #31
    Re: More "Change"

    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
    Okay, if you want to compare the rhetoric of pundits, I'm ready.

    Let's start comparing all the wonderful lies and rhetoric of Fox's pundits and attack dogs like Hannity, O'Rielly, Beck, Goldberg, Coulter, Malkin, Morris, Bennet, Rove.....

    You see, MSNBC and their pundits make absolutely no claim to being a news channel. "MSNBC, The Place for Politics". Were as Fox News makes the claim of 'Fair and balanced" and "We report, you decide".

    I've seen every pundit on MSNBC, including Scarborough, express very bold and very critical condemnation of Obama and the dems. I've yet to catch any of them outright lying through their teeth. And I have yet to see MSNBC label a well known democrat that is in trouble as a republican. Virtually every time a republican congressman gets in trouble Fox News places a capital D after their name. Curious, huh?

    And the way the Fox News producers doctor up the video footage of the various RNC sanctioned meets to make it look like there are more people attending the event. They recently were caught doing this twice within a couple of weeks.

    And never mind video of their 'reporter' and his producer at the teabagger event in DC coaching and whipping the group surrounding them into a feeding frenzy right before going to a live feed. Is that what passes for journalism?

    Or the townhall disrupters? The ones that were given instructions to scream, shout, interrupt other citizens, do not allow anyone else with a different opinion to speak, basically create a scene so Fox News could take these orchestrated events and broadcast them to show how angry all American's are?

    Fox and the RNC are not only in lock step, but there is virtually no separation between the two. One may disagree, but to do so reveals such a case of willful ignorance that I truly doubt one would be able to identify real news in the first place.

    Fox News feeds the bias of their audience. They confirm their audiences bigotry with lies and innuendos to great effect. And the paid isn't bad either.
    Well, I guess that makes me a Fox watching bigot who voted for President Obama? No, Fox is not fair and balanced and neither are the "thriil up my leg" stations. Only takes an "unbiased" viewer a few minutes of watching any of these staions to figure out the slant. Hannity was all for respecting the President when Bush was in office but he has no problem calling Obama "the chosen one". I still think to defend either party is to shortchange the American public. Our borders should be secure and illegals should not be given a free pass to burden our economy, but neither party did a dam thing to stop them or deal with the issue! Both parties stood by a did nothing while businesses and jobs disappeared from the USA. Both parties increased our national debt and trade deficit. Both parties have brave Americans dying on foreign soil. Yes, President Obama is a great speaker, where the hell are the results he promised? Doesn't that matter? Where is the hope our economy will turn around? Where is the transparency, the scalpel to the budget? In my opinion the answer is gone with the election. He lied like every politician! Keep defending him and the democrats, just as supporters of former President Bush. Just look where we are as a people, dependant on a communist country for our survival. Disgusting, both parties should be ashamed.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: More "Change"

      Actually, if the stock market is any barometer, the economy is doing very well. We are in an extremely deep recession, and 11 months into his term he is dealing with a party whose sole stated purpose is to deny him any opportunity to address anything. In the 1990's the republicans screamed foul at the number of filibusters by the dems. But these days the republicans only strategy is to stop congress in its tracks because they are unable to compromise.

      Rather than bring any idea's of substance to the table, the RNC and their members in congress have been in attack mode since last summer. Perhaps they could lend a hand to the many complex issues we are facing today rather than throw invectives and shut down the process all together?

      Fox can say whatever they want, I don't care. But I take issue with anyone that would cite them as a credible news outlet. They are opinion entertainment. They do not suffer the burden of being honest or truthful. They peddle outrage and the corporate line: tort reform, deregulation, tax cuts and illegals.

      I'm still waiting to see my tax cut under Bush. My effective tax burden is near 35%. I fail to see how cutting corporate America's taxes will increase jobs. That is a senseless argument. Business hires workers based on need, not because they have a lot of spare money sitting around. Give me a tax cut and I guarantee you that the windfall I enjoy will go right back into the economy.

      As for illegals, no need to seal the borders. Just make it illegal to hire illegal immigrants. Seems like that would be a pretty simple law write. No proof of citizenship, no job. Problem with that however is that corporate America wants illegals working for them. And whatever corporate America wants, corporate America gets.

      Obama is a corporatist. Just a lot more subtle than Bush, Clinton or Reagan.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: More "Change"

        Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
        Actually, if the stock market is any barometer, the economy is doing very well. We are in an extremely deep recession, and 11 months into his term he is dealing with a party whose sole stated purpose is to deny him any opportunity to address anything. In the 1990's the republicans screamed foul at the number of filibusters by the dems. But these days the republicans only strategy is to stop congress in its tracks because they are unable to compromise.

        Rather than bring any idea's of substance to the table, the RNC and their members in congress have been in attack mode since last summer. Perhaps they could lend a hand to the many complex issues we are facing today rather than throw invectives and shut down the process all together?

        Fox can say whatever they want, I don't care. But I take issue with anyone that would cite them as a credible news outlet. They are opinion entertainment. They do not suffer the burden of being honest or truthful. They peddle outrage and the corporate line: tort reform, deregulation, tax cuts and illegals.

        I'm still waiting to see my tax cut under Bush. My effective tax burden is near 35%. I fail to see how cutting corporate America's taxes will increase jobs. That is a senseless argument. Business hires workers based on need, not because they have a lot of spare money sitting around. Give me a tax cut and I guarantee you that the windfall I enjoy will go right back into the economy.

        As for illegals, no need to seal the borders. Just make it illegal to hire illegal immigrants. Seems like that would be a pretty simple law write. No proof of citizenship, no job. Problem with that however is that corporate America wants illegals working for them. And whatever corporate America wants, corporate America gets.

        Obama is a corporatist. Just a lot more subtle than Bush, Clinton or Reagan.
        As a manager I am surprised you missed this unless you are not involved in hiring. However, it is already illegal to hire illegal aliens and has been for a long time (20+ years). That is why you have to have your employees fill out an I-9 form when you hire them. The majority of illegals work in industries that are less likely to be monitored (construction, farming, moving and such) or are self employed. They do not work for large corporations unless they have forged documents.

        Mark.
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: More "Change"

          ToUtahNow - I remember the feds raiding a meat packing plant a couple of years ago (Hormel?) and arresting quite a few illegals. I agree that under the table wages are unfair and promote the illegal situation. Imagine if everyone paid their fair share of taxes. Here in Oregon, the average corporation pays a minimum corporate tax of $10 annually. I think a fair number of citizens are setting up sham or barely operational corporations so they can write off their trips to Costco.

          A number of years ago the IRS decided to focus on private filings rather than larger corporate filings. It's a matter of resource allocation. Tie up disputes in the courts for years or go after the average private citizen that does not have the resources to take on the IRS.

          I think it is time to shift their resources and start auditing industries where illegals are a key component of the workforce. Agriculture and construction.
          Last edited by SpiffPeters; 12-22-2009, 03:36 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: More "Change"

            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
            ToUtahNow - I remember the feds raiding a meat packing plant a couple of years ago (Hormel?) and arresting quite a few illegals. I agree that under the table wages are unfair and promote the illegal situation. Imagine if everyone paid their fair share of taxes. Here in Oregon, the average corporation pays a minimum corporate tax of $10 annually. I think a fair number of citizens are setting up sham or barely operational corporations so they can write off their trips to Costco.

            A number of years ago the IRS decided to focus on private filings rather than larger corporate filings. It's a matter of resource allocation. Tie up disputes in the courts for years or go after the average private citizen that does not have the resources to take on the IRS.

            I think it is time to shift their resources and start auditing industries where illegals are a key component of the workforce. Agriculture and construction.
            All the loopholes and court costs, etc. could be avoided with a flat tax. Everyone making above the poverty wage for their number of dependents pays 10%. Corporations pay 10%. No calculations, no tax courts, no IRS required. Pay the 10% as you earn it and not have to file in April. No mortgage deduction, no Schedule A, B or Z. 10% and its over with.

            They'd have so much money they wouldn't know what to do with it. :-)
            ---------------
            Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
            ---------------
            “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
            ---------
            "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
            ---------
            sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: More "Change"

              How would the flat tax apply to those that live off capital gains (the financially elite)?

              No single tax policy would be equitable to everyone. People acquire the finances required to sustain them in a number of ways. Some by commission, some through a single contractual pay out, trust funds, capital gains, wages, tips, under the table wages...

              Then we get into whether a flat tax unduly penalizes the high earners thus preventing people from wanting to get ahead. This argument is so phony I don't know why it even gets brought up, but it does.

              I'd settle for a federal and state rate capped at 20%. I would be so far ahead of the game, it isn't even funny. But a flat tax will never happen. It's too radical of a change, and change is something we as a nation are dead set against, regardless if it ultimately serves our best interests or that of our decedents.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: More "Change"

                I fail to see how cutting corporate America's taxes will increase jobs. That is a senseless argument. Business hires workers based on need, not because they have a lot of spare money sitting around. Give me a tax cut and I guarantee you that the windfall I enjoy will go right back into the economy.


                That is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time and proof that 90% of people have no idea how economics works.

                Do you REALLY think business pay taxes? any taxes? When governments raise taxes on business, businesses raise the price of services and goods on the customer to recoup the loss. I have been in business for 35 years and taxes have never cost me one cent. If taxes get so high that business can no longer sell product or services and make a profit then one of two things happen. Either the business fails and puts lots of folks out of work, or the business moves to a more friendly environment, like over seas and again puts lots of folks out of work. Either way, a businesses, business is to make money. Profit, and most businesses re-invest a healthy portion of that profit so that the business will grow and make even more profit. Something the idiot liberals don't or won't understand. They would rather tax the crap out of businesses because it's easy to vilify corporations while in truth, every cent that a business is taxed is ultimately paid by the consumer. You really want to put people back to work and grow the economy, then put an end to all business taxes.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: More "Change"

                  Let's take it down a notch and keep it respectful or I will have to close the thread.

                  Thanks-Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: More "Change"

                    I was mistaken when I said the average Oregon corporation pays the minimum annual tax of $10. Most of the corporation in Oregon pay the minimum annual tax of $10.

                    When Intel came into Washington County, the county gave them a sweetheart deal on taxes and the like. When Intel starts talking aloud about maybe moving, the county starts slashing taxes some more. Meanwhile, the services those taxes support don't get cut, so residents see their taxes go up. So with all those tax cuts and infrastructure put into place (water/sewer/roads/traffic controls) the average citizen ends up subsiding a huge corporation, even though a fraction of a percent of residents work there. I'm sure it is prestigious, but it is a net loss for the local community.

                    But let me be clear about corporations. I understand the need for businesses to incorporate. I've no problem with small companies/corporations. But I do have a problem with national and international corporations. The too big to fail crowd in my opinion is anti-small business. And it is the small business that drives the economy.

                    Big corporations have a higher reliance on the commons than a single person. They require a healthy and educated workforce that has a means of transporting themselves to and from the workplace. They require access to water and power and our airwaves and internet. Where would big business be without the interstate highway system? Water systems? Or even mass transit?

                    The tax cuts from 2001/02 haven't shown up in my bottom line. Meanwhile my property have gone up, state taxes have gone up, utility taxes have gone up, phone taxes have gone up, gas taxes have gone up.......

                    Where is my tax cut? By the time trickle down gets to me it's barely a damp spot in my wallet.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: More "Change"

                      Sorry Mark, but every time someone thinks taxing business is a good way to raise revenue it makes my blood boil because in the end, the consumer bears the tax burden, not the corporation. Then to complain about property, sales and income taxes while defending an administration that has spent how many TRILLONS of our money in the past 9 months. Give me a break. You want to reduce taxes, stop spending money. Stop supporting illegal aliens. Stop earmarks that cost billions. Stop congressional raises and private jets and limo's and all the bazillions of dollars wasted at the local, state and federal level.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: More "Change"

                        The tax incentives are pretty standard stuff and is how communities get job and tax creating businesses to build in their community. When Cabelas wanted to build in our valley our City was too young to be able to afford them. To give you an idea of incentive packages they get, Fort Worth Texas paid $41,000,000 in incentives and Buda Texas paid $61,000,000 in incentives to get Cabelas to build in their communities. WalMart is another store which gets a ton of tax incentives to build in a community. It is important for communities to be able to bring in employers and taxes, and the best way to do it is by offering incentives.

                        Washington, Utah is a good example of this. The city dates back to the 1800 and has always had a population of a couple of thousand people. They are right next to Saint George, Utah so they went to the big businesses there and offered them incentives. Over night they grew to 19,000 people and estimate they will hit 80,000 within a decade. The original businesses received incentives, all subsequent businesses pay full pop. Washington now has schools and community centers which are second to none.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: More "Change"

                          Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                          Sorry Mark, but every time someone thinks taxing business is a good way to raise revenue it makes my blood boil because in the end, the consumer bears the tax burden, not the corporation. Then to complain about property, sales and income taxes while defending an administration that has spent how many TRILLONS of our money in the past 9 months. Give me a break. You want to reduce taxes, stop spending money. Stop supporting illegal aliens. Stop earmarks that cost billions. Stop congressional raises and private jets and limo's and all the bazillions of dollars wasted at the local, state and federal level.
                          I'm not very confrontational, but with the exception of taxing businesses the republican party did the exact same things, right? Regarding tax breaks, what did that accomplish? We still lost millions of jobs, regardless of the tax incentives. Wallstreet execs still bankrupted their businesses and we paid for it under both administrations. The deficit grew under President Bush as it will under President Obama. We couldn't afford the wars, bailouts, healthcare (bribes)reform, cap and trade or any of the other great political ideas (cash for clunkers). We need to bring back jobs and employ Americans to work and provide us with our consumer goods, not force brave young Americans to enlist because unemployment is so bad. I don't mean to offend anyone, we are all upset and things look bad.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: More "Change"

                            I hate to say it but a lot of our jobs were forced out of the Country by overly aggressive EPA rules and they will soon be getting worse. Can you imagine we are not allowed to have Nuclear Power and now Obama wants to destroy the Coal Industry. What do we do next, move all of our Power Plants to Mexico and buy power from there?

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: More "Change"

                              If you can build a community around a large employer and bring in additional business, then it can be a good investment. However, communities that live by the big corporate teat die by the big corporate teat. Detroit is a prime example. And American auto manufacturers have on one to blame but themselves.

                              Last time I checked, the national debt was roughly a little over $12 trillion. The previous administration and congresses put everything on the credit card. The wars were always funded through emergency funding measures and never added into the budget. A couple hundred billion here, a couple hundred billion there...pretty soon you're talking about some real money. The trillions of dollars our little overseas adventure will cost us would have done wonders for building up our infrastructure.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: More "Change"

                                Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                                If you can build a community around a large employer and bring in additional business, then it can be a good investment. However, communities that live by the big corporate teat die by the big corporate teat. Detroit is a prime example. And American auto manufacturers have on one to blame but themselves.

                                Last time I checked, the national debt was roughly a little over $12 trillion. The previous administration and congresses put everything on the credit card. The wars were always funded through emergency funding measures and never added into the budget. A couple hundred billion here, a couple hundred billion there...pretty soon you're talking about some real money. The trillions of dollars our little overseas adventure will cost us would have done wonders for building up our infrastructure.
                                The former Administration was irresponsible but let's not forget the obscene money the current Administration is spending. Of the $700,000,000,000 in TARP, Bush distributed $350,000,000,000 and Obama distributed $200,000,000,000. Now they want to take the leftover $150,000,000,000 to spend on non TRAP expenditures. Add to that the Stimulus package which was loaded in PORK, the Health Care program which appears to be sure to pass and all the tax breaks and incentive give aways Reid has done and we are in a mess.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                                Comment

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