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  • #46
    Re: More "Change"

    Both parties share the blame. Economics is not rocket science though they would have you believe that you are too stupid to grasp the concepts. The hard fact is that if you want to reduce deficits and you want to reduce tax burden then you have to stop spending money. It really is that simple.

    As for Detroit auto makers. Though they have indeed had some problems in the past 25 years or so it is important to remember how many very profitable and successful decades they had previous to the EPA, DOT and Washington placing costly restrictions on the products they produce. Restrictions that were not placed on foreign imports. And don't get me started on unfair import/export tariff's placed on all corporations by our very own government.
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    • #47
      Re: More "Change"

      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
      If you can build a community around a large employer and bring in additional business, then it can be a good investment. However, communities that live by the big corporate teat die by the big corporate teat. Detroit is a prime example. And American auto manufacturers have on one to blame but themselves.

      Last time I checked, the national debt was roughly a little over $12 trillion. The previous administration and congresses put everything on the credit card. The wars were always funded through emergency funding measures and never added into the budget. A couple hundred billion here, a couple hundred billion there...pretty soon you're talking about some real money. The trillions of dollars our little overseas adventure will cost us would have done wonders for building up our infrastructure.
      By the way the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined to date are still under a trillion dollars over an 8-year period. Now stop to think the Congress dwarfed that amount in less than a year.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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      • #48
        Re: More "Change"

        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
        By the way the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined to date are still under a trillion dollars over an 8-year period. Now stop to think the Congress dwarfed that amount in less than a year.

        Mark
        Yep they haven't quite reached a trillion yet. For those that want to watch the costs of those wars you can check out this running counter.

        http://costofwar.com/

        You can add in about half a trillion if you want to include the military research and development and new equipment contracts if you want, but those are costs we'd still be accumulating even without a war. Not only did we dwarf that in a single year we dwarfed that in a single payment.

        The biggest chuck of the debt(5 trillion) went to bailing out Sally Mae and Freddy Mack. We paid money to businesses that screwed up so bad the only way to fix it was 5 trillion dollars! There was certainly logic behind those bail outs if they had failed completely it is unlikely our economy could have taken that blow. The fact we just about handed them that money and said 'we trust you to use it responsibly' is outrageous.

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        • #49
          Re: More "Change"

          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
          Fox News is anything but news. They are little more than the RNC's propaganda distributor. It isn't like they have not been caught reading RNC talking point memos, verbatim, on air without attribution. If that passes as news reporting then we are in sad shape.

          Like I said, the republicans have a significant information infrastructure in place so that if they did have any credible thoughts on health insurance reform we would know about it.

          Instead, they've made the political calculus that obstructing the dems and Obama at every turn is their ticket back to power.

          I wish the repubs would have engaged the dems in an honest debate. Certainly they had good ideas and the more minds the better.

          Rather than engage in statesmenship, they chose to orchestrate the town halls and use the most inflammatory rhetoric imaginable. Honestly, how constructive were their intentions with their attack dog pundits screaming death panels, socialism and so forth? Never mind the obvious lies of these battle cries, but how do these words engage the public in a calm, reasoned manner?

          BTW, on October 10th, 2002 John McCain objected to a senators request for an additional 30 seconds. So either his memory is slipping or he is lying when he said he has never seen a senator object to another senators request for more time.

          Then again, this is yet another example of their inability to have an honest debate. They have to make up lies on the support their points.
          Typical liberal tactic."The most inflammatory rhetoric imaginable??" I guess words like "tea-bagging" "homophobes" "Fuax news" "Racist" "Astro turff" ect. Disgusting.

          You like to degrade people who have different ideas than you. Climate change? Nope there deniers. Don't agree with the president? Racist. On and on.

          Your losing. Thank goodness for Fox news and the internet.

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          • #50
            Re: More "Change"

            Originally posted by TomSV650 View Post
            Typical liberal tactic."The most inflammatory rhetoric imaginable??" I guess words like "tea-bagging" "homophobes" "Fuax news" "Racist" "Astro turff" ect. Disgusting.

            You like to degrade people who have different ideas than you. Climate change? Nope there deniers. Don't agree with the president? Racist. On and on.

            Your losing. Thank goodness for Fox news and the internet.
            Seriously? This jist of his rant that the right wing doesn't make reasonable debates and that's what you respond with?

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            • #51
              Re: More "Change"

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              By the way the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined to date are still under a trillion dollars over an 8-year period. Now stop to think the Congress dwarfed that amount in less than a year.

              Mark
              Correct. Currently under a trillion. But you have to add in the cost of replacing all that equipment that was worn out, the medical expenses of all the veterans. Estimates a couple of years ago put the total cost of the wars over $2 trillion when it's all said and done. It's the hidden costs that add up.

              Everyone wants tax cuts. But if you cut taxes you have to cut services. What services are you willing to do with out?

              As for nuclear power, so long as they build a repository to store the waste I don't have a problem with it. Yucca Mountain seems like as good a place as any.

              I'll take clean air and clean drinking water any day over industry. Sorry. Some things are just more important in life. For those that live in rural areas or densely populated areas you probably don't recognize the benefits of having an agency making sure our air and water are fit for consumption.

              "Typical liberal tactic."The most inflammatory rhetoric imaginable??" I guess words like "tea-bagging" "homophobes" "Fuax news" "Racist" "Astro turff" ect. Disgusting."

              The radical right picked the term teabaggers. Not my fault if they didn't check an urban dictionary to make sure they were picking something that flies in the face of the family values crowd. Astro turf is pretty accurate. There is nothing grass roots about the townhall criers and the multi-million dollar Tea Bag express buses. Racist - Plenty of examples of outright racism on the right. More than a few emails and photos that have come to light from the right wing. Faux News - because they don't actually do news. In the morning they do something similar to a news cast, but after each story they have two or three conservatives complain about how it the other sides fault. So it's really just a fake news show.

              "You like to degrade people who have different ideas than you."

              I haven't degraded anyone. Although in this thread I was told that what I say is is the dumbest thing one person has read in a while. But that's different I guess.

              "Climate change? Nope there deniers."

              They are deniers. They are a vocal minority, but they have as yet to present a comprehensive presentation of ALL the data and facts supporting their claim that global warming isn't occurring. They cherry pick the stats that support their claim and disregard the mountain of evidence that says the contrary.


              "Don't agree with the president? Racist."

              Yeah, how do you like it? When we didn't agree with Bush we were called un-American.


              "Your losing. Thank goodness for Fox news and the internet."

              22%.

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              • #52
                Re: More "Change"

                Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post

                As for nuclear power, so long as they build a repository to store the waste I don't have a problem with it. Yucca Mountain seems like as good a place as any.
                Forget Yucca Mountain for now. After 20-years of working on it at a cost of over $9,000,000,000, Obama closed it down during his first month of office.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: More "Change"

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  Forget Yucca Mountain for now. After 20-years of working on it at a cost of over $9,000,000,000, Obama closed it down during his first month of office.

                  Mark
                  Want a good place to put nuclear waste. Dump it into the ocean. No seriously Drop it into the Marianas Trench. As it is now the radioactivity at the bottom of the Marianas trench is higher then anything that's made by man. Of course that solution is about the same as launching it into the sun, getting from point A to B is the problem if anything went wrong in transit we'd be screwed.

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                  • #54
                    Re: More "Change"

                    This thread overall illustrates my problem with Republican party and our politics in general.

                    The thread started with a video clip inferring that Al Franken brought negative change to the Senate. FOX news in interest of making Al Franken look bad used their news network to distribute it around the country. The clip shows Franken doing something that is fairly ordinary in senate procedures. John McCain tried to take his time in front of the camera's blow smoke and make wild accusations.

                    If FOX had bothered to fact check the story they would have found it was indeed McCain who had done something out of the ordinary. FOX news has a history of failing to fact check. They rarely do corrections for their pieces.

                    Ok so now the work of other news networks points out the Republican hypocrisy of that clip. Where is the outrage from Republicans? Their man got in front of the senate and lied. Did the Republicans stand up and ask McCain to apologize? Not that I've seen. The Republican strategy on that blunder seems to be pretend it didn't happen and get outraged about some other issue. That would lead me, an independent, to believe the Republicans aren't interested in facts or honesty.

                    When Alan Grayson(D) got up in front of the House and said 'The Republican health care plan is for people to die' There was outrage from the Democratic party. Demands for his apology did come from the left. One of their representatives made an allegation not based in fact and suffered consequences from his own party for it. That shows there is at least some level of integrity to the Democratic party.

                    When comparing the two stories Grayson's comments were at least questionable. McCain's were a flat out lie. You would think out of the two the liar should be the one that is scolded by his own party.


                    Then the debate about Fox news enters into this thread. A few left wingers(I'll include myself with the left for the purposes of this argument) point out the obvious flaws with FOX news. A right winger comes back without presenting any fact and makes allegations that the other news works are equivalent in their support of the left wing.

                    There is no merit to that argument. The facts do not support it. In my opinion that is a complete bullshit and divisive argument.

                    There are factual rational arguments that can be made about FOX's alignment with the right but it would appear the right wing posters aren't interested in making those.

                    I'll help you out if you want.

                    'The reason their is no left wing equivalent to FOX news is the Democratic party is so lacking in unity it is imposable for a network to capitalize on them in the way FOX news has the right. The Democrats are so busy flip flopping on issues and arguing among themselves a network can't present a newscast that encompasses the Democratic platform.'

                    Or how about. 'While FOX news may have a right wing bias if you watch Fox entertainment you'll find many shows that have a strong left wing bias, Simpsons, House, Boston Legal, Wanda Sykes show, etc. In fact among all networks most entertainment shows have a liberal bias. As news is some of the least watched TV you can find more liberal views being forced into the minds of viewers then you could conservative ones.'

                    Those arguments can be rational and fact based. Both have merit and I can present evidence for and against them. There can be reasoned debate.

                    Back to my problem with the Republican party. Factual and reasoned arguments from them have become a thing of the past. The right wing movement is actively working to exclude and alienate their members that participate in such activities. The parties mainstream has become what was once it's fringe. The leaders being followed are Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh. Those that in the past represented rational debate have either been forced to the fringes or they have, like John McCain, adapted to the new model in order to maintain their position.

                    There are many good right wing arguments to be made. Many that I agree with. Rather then electing to use their minds and make those arguments they've ended with an idiocracy that would rather point fingers and make inaccurate claims to demonize their opponents.

                    I have an argument as to why that has become the case but that argument weighs heavily on my opinion and could offend people. I'll stick to the fact based arguments. I wish those on the right would do the same.

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                    • #55
                      Re: More "Change"

                      I have been a registered voter now for almost forty years. I do not consider myself a democrat or republican although I usually voted for the democrats. I saw republicans as the party trying to keep minimum wages and the working class down, funding for education low. I was against our extended involvement in iraq, tax cuts for the rich and most of what the last administration was doing or not doing for our country. Dirty politics is what I saw, an abuse of power, special interest winning ahead of our needs. I told myself if we can just get a democratic President, things will change. Here we are new President and same old politics. Knee deep in the "right" war, widely unfavorable legislation about to be passed, broken campaign promises and increased goverment spending passed down to me. I don't see a difference between the two parties, I don't see a benefit to "We The People", and I don't have confidence in a new and better America under the democratic party.

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                      • #56
                        Re: More "Change"

                        Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                        This thread overall illustrates my problem with Republican party and our politics in general.

                        The thread started with a video clip inferring that Al Franken brought negative change to the Senate.
                        I think you missed the point of the thread. The point was we were told there would be change and everyone would work together. Franken was told to play hard-ball with Lieberman who is an Independent who caucuses with the Democrats. Without Lieberman the Health Care Bill cannot be passed yet they still played hard-ball with him.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: More "Change"

                          "The point was we were told there would be change and everyone would work together."

                          Yes, and Obama made the historic visit to the republican caucus last winter. And ever since then the republican party has dug in the heels and obstructed congress to a degree never seen before.

                          Rather than positively engage the process, the republican party has decided to not participate and limit it's activity to destructive tactics.

                          What gives them the right as the minority party to dictate terms? They certainly didn't respect the concerns of the minority when they were in power. It was Denny Hastert that stated that he would follow the dictate of the 'Majority of the majority'. So dissenting voices in his own party were marginalized.

                          Once the republican leadership starts acting responsibly I may be inclined to give them a serious listen. But as it is currently configured and operated, they are nothing more than a collection of shrill and dishonest voices whose obvious interest is regaining power.

                          And I'm not about to entrust this nation to any group that would resort to these tactics just so they may return to power.

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                          • #58
                            Re: More "Change"

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            "The point was we were told there would be change and everyone would work together."

                            Yes, and Obama made the historic visit to the republican caucus last winter. And ever since then the republican party has dug in the heels and obstructed congress to a degree never seen before.

                            Rather than positively engage the process, the republican party has decided to not participate and limit it's activity to destructive tactics.

                            What gives them the right as the minority party to dictate terms? They certainly didn't respect the concerns of the minority when they were in power. It was Denny Hastert that stated that he would follow the dictate of the 'Majority of the majority'. So dissenting voices in his own party were marginalized.

                            Once the republican leadership starts acting responsibly I may be inclined to give them a serious listen. But as it is currently configured and operated, they are nothing more than a collection of shrill and dishonest voices whose obvious interest is regaining power.

                            And I'm not about to entrust this nation to any group that would resort to these tactics just so they may return to power.
                            I think this might be a little bit of a stretch since the term the Obstructionist Party was coined for the Democrats during Bush's term.

                            It was Obama who promised full transparency (something about broadcast on CNN) then Reid hid in his office and wrote the Health Care Bill without even talking to his own party.

                            I don't think they should dictate but they should at least be allowed into the room.

                            Mark
                            Last edited by ToUtahNow; 12-23-2009, 01:29 PM.
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: More "Change"

                              Actually, Paul Krugam recently did an article about the use of the filibuster (December 18th, 2009).

                              Quote:

                              "The political scientist Barbara Sinclair has done the math. In the 1960s, she finds, “extended-debate-related problems” — threatened or actual filibusters — affected only 8 percent of major legislation. By the 1980s, that had risen to 27 percent. But after Democrats retook control of Congress in 2006 and Republicans found themselves in the minority, it soared to 70 percent."

                              http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/op...21krugman.html

                              And it was Tom Daschele that was tagged with the obstructionist moniker back in the 1990's.


                              "I don't think they should dictate but they should at least be allowed into the room."

                              I agree. But they have not given any indication that they are interested in being a minority partner in the process. If they can't call all the shots then they don't want to have any part of it and will do everything they can to derail the process. And, they have not presented any honest debates. When you have a sitting senator in Chuck Grassly out there talking about death panels, it is obvious the minority party is not interested in helping to craft any legislation that benefits everyone.
                              Last edited by SpiffPeters; 12-23-2009, 01:35 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Re: More "Change"

                                Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                                I agree. But they have not given any indication that they are interested in being a minority partner in the process. If they can't call all the shots then they don't want to have any part of it and will do everything they can to derail the process. And, they have not presented any honest debates. When you have a sitting senator in Chuck Grassly out there talking about death panels, it is obvious the minority party is not interested in helping to craft any legislation that benefits everyone.
                                Of course that is making the assumption that this legislation benefits everyone. If on the other hand, you believe it is a terrible mistake, then it makes sense to be "obstructionist" and do whatever you can to stop it.

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