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  • #16
    Re: HealthCare BS?

    Folks, when it comes to healthcare, want to hear somthing that will really make you vomit?

    An English citizen will pay no more than SEVEN POUNDS for a prescription, regardless of the medicine prescribed!

    This is direct observation. Back in June, I was deployed for two weeks to England. It was then I had the opportunity to visit my Godmother and her husband (An author and a Shell employee respectively) where the question about healthcare was brought up. I had asked about how much were their medicines (Thinking to myself, they were of a "higher tax bracket" they HAD to pay more) was when they told me the amount. My jaw dropped to the floor! I could not believe it!

    It was then I realised what the health insurance companies truely feared: A government program that is able to provide affordable premiums with a service that is superior to private companies. Thus (And here is the true nightmare scenario for them) those private agencies will LOSE paying customers to the government and NEVER get them back!

    I will repeat this: Those private companies are AFRAID of losing customers to the government! The last thing any private enterprise wants is the government as a competitor. People we have heard businessmen stomp and clap about how much "competition" is good for a free market. But when REAL competition is introduced, notice how much those same people scream in pain and agony? But as always, don't take my word on it. See the truth for yourselves no further than the College industry. There have been cottage industries set up in the business of providing the paperwork services for students to aquire loans, grants, and government funding. Those people complained that they cannot shed one single penny off the price of their services lest they go bankrupt. Guess what? Under Clinton the Feds created "Direct Loans" straight to the students, thus rid everyone the burden of having to pay a middle man. Here is what happened, they cleaned up their act and streamlined things to the ponit they were profitable again and provided superior service.
    Last edited by tailgunner; 12-21-2009, 10:19 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: HealthCare BS?

      Information from another post.

      United Kingdom

      An interview with an expert on the UK's system +

      Percentage of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) spent on health care: 8.3

      Average family premium: None; funded by taxation.

      Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. Young people and the elderly are exempt from all drug co-pays.

      What is it? The British system is "socialized medicine" because the government both provides and pays for health care. Britons pay taxes for health care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

      Co-payments: None for most services; some co-pays for dental care, eyeglasses and 5 percent of prescriptions. care, and the government-run National Health Service (NHS) distributes those funds to health care providers. Hospital doctors are paid salaries. General practitioners (GPs), who run private practices, are paid based on the number of patients they see. A small number of specialists work outside the NHS and see private-pay patients.

      How does it work? Because the system is funded through taxes, administrative costs are low; there are no bills to collect or claims to review. Patients have a "medical home" in their GP, who also serves as a gatekeeper to the rest of the system; patients must see their GP before going to a specialist. GPs, who are paid extra for keeping their patients healthy, are instrumental in preventive care, an area in which Britain is a world leader.

      What are the concerns? The stereotype of socialized medicine -- long waits and limited choice -- still has some truth. In response, the British government has instituted reforms to help make care more competitive and give patients more choice. Hospitals now compete for NHS funds distributed by local Primary Care Trusts, and starting in April 2008 patients are able to choose where they want to be treated for many procedures.


      Japan

      An interview with an expert on Japan's system +

      Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 8

      Average family premium: $280 per month, with employers paying more than half.

      Co-payments: 30 percent of the cost of a procedure, but the total amount paid in a month is capped according to income.

      What is it? Japan uses a "social insurance" system in which all citizens are required to have health insurance, either through their work or purchased from a nonprofit, community-based plan. Those who can't afford the premiums receive public assistance. Most health insurance is private; doctors and almost all hospitals are in the private sector.

      How does it work? Japan boasts some of the best health statistics in the world, no doubt due in part to the Japanese diet and lifestyle. Unlike the U.K., there are no gatekeepers; the Japanese can go to any specialist when and as often as they like. Every two years the Ministry of Health negotiates with physicians to set the price for every procedure. This helps keeps costs down.

      What are the concerns? In fact, Japan has been so successful at keeping costs down that Japan now spends too little on health care; half of the hospitals in Japan are operating in the red. Having no gatekeepers means there's no check on how often the Japanese use health care, and patients may lack a medical home.


      Germany

      An interview with an expert on Germany's system +

      Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 10.7

      Average family premium: $750 per month; premiums are pegged to patients' income.

      Co-payments: 10 euros ($15) every three months; some patients, like pregnant women, are exempt.

      What is it? Germany, like Japan, uses a social insurance model. In fact, Germany is the birthplace of social insurance, which dates back to Chancellor Otto von Bismarck. But unlike the Japanese, who get insurance from work or are assigned to a community fund, Germans are free to buy their insurance from one of more than 200 private, nonprofit "sickness funds." As in Japan, the poor receive public assistance to pay their premiums.

      How does it work? Sickness funds are nonprofit and cannot deny coverage based on preexisting conditions; they compete with each other for members, and fund managers are paid based on the size of their enrollments. Like Japan, Germany is a single-payment system, but instead of the government negotiating the prices, the sickness funds bargain with doctors as a group. Germans can go straight to a specialist without first seeing a gatekeeper doctor, but they may pay a higher co-pay if they do.

      What are the concerns? The single-payment system leaves some German doctors feeling underpaid. A family doctor in Germany makes about two-thirds as much as he or she would in America. (Then again, German doctors pay much less for malpractice insurance, and many attend medical school for free.) Germany also lets the richest 10 percent opt out of the sickness funds in favor of U.S.-style for-profit insurance. These patients are generally seen more quickly by doctors, because the for-profit insurers pay doctors more than the sickness funds.


      Taiwan

      An interview with an expert on Taiwan's system +

      Percentage GDP spent on health care: 6.3

      Average family premium: $650 per year for a family for four.

      Co-payments: 20 percent of the cost of drugs, up to $6.50; up to $7 for outpatient care; $1.80 for dental and traditional Chinese medicine. There are exemptions for major diseases, childbirth, preventive services, and for the poor, veterans, and children.

      What is it? Taiwan adopted a "National Health Insurance" model in 1995 after studying other countries' systems. Like Japan and Germany, all citizens must have insurance, but there is only one, government-run insurer. Working people pay premiums split with their employers; others pay flat rates with government help; and some groups, like the poor and veterans, are fully subsidized. The resulting system is similar to Canada's -- and the U.S. Medicare program.

      How does it work? Taiwan's new health system extended insurance to the 40 percent of the population that lacked it while actually decreasing the growth of health care spending. The Taiwanese can see any doctor without a referral. Every citizen has a smart card, which is used to store his or her medical history and bill the national insurer. The system also helps public health officials monitor standards and effect policy changes nationwide. Thanks to this use of technology and the country's single insurer, Taiwan's health care system has the lowest administrative costs in the world.

      What are the concerns? Like Japan, Taiwan's system is not taking in enough money to cover the medical care it provides. The problem is compounded by politics, because it is up to Taiwan's parliament to approve an increase in insurance premiums, which it has only done once since the program was enacted.


      Switzerland

      An interview with an expert on Switzerland's system +

      Percentage of GDP spent on health care: 11.6

      Average monthly family premium: $750, paid entirely by consumers; there are government subsidies for low-income citizens.

      Co-payments: 10 percent of the cost of services, up to $420 per year.

      What is it? The Swiss system is social insurance like in Japan and Germany, voted in by a national referendum in 1994. Switzerland didn't have far to go to achieve universal coverage; 95 percent of the population already had voluntary insurance when the law was passed. All citizens are required to have coverage; those not covered were automatically assigned to a company. The government provides assistance to those who can't afford the premiums.

      How does it work? The Swiss example shows that universal coverage is possible, even in a highly capitalist nation with powerful insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit on basic care and are prohibited from cherry-picking only young and healthy applicants. They can make money on supplemental insurance, however. As in Germany, the insurers negotiate with providers to set standard prices for services, but drug prices are set by the government.

      What are the concerns? The Swiss system is the second most expensive in the world -- but it's still far cheaper than U.S. health care. Drug prices are still slightly higher than in other European nations, and even then the discounts may be subsidized by the more expensive U.S. market, where some Swiss drug companies make one-third of their profits. In general, the Swiss do not have gatekeeper doctors, although some insurance plans require them or give a discount to consumers who use them.


      This is from the article. I highlighted what I thought were some interesting points. I believe it was done in the 2007-2008 year.


      J.C.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: HealthCare BS?

        Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
        Folks, when it comes to healthcare, want to hear somthing that will really make you vomit?

        An English citizen will pay no more than SEVEN POUNDS for a prescription, regardless of the medicine prescribed!

        This is direct observation. Back in June, I was deployed for two weeks to England. It was then I had the opportunity to visit my Godmother and her husband (An author and a Shell employee respectively) where the question about healthcare was brought up. I had asked about how much were their medicines (Thinking to myself, they were of a "higher tax bracket" they HAD to pay more) was when they told me the amount. My jaw dropped to the floor! I could not believe it!

        It was then I realised what the health insurance companies truely feared: A government program that is able to provide affordable premiums with a service that is superior to private companies. Thus (And here is the true nightmare scenario for them) those private agencies will LOSE paying customers to the government and NEVER get them back!

        I will repeat this: Those private companies are AFRAID of losing customers to the government! The last thing any private enterprise wants is the government as a competitor. People we have heard businessmen stomp and clap about how much "competition" is good for a free market. But when REAL competition is introduced, notice how much those same people scream in pain and agony? But as always, don't take my word on it. See the truth for yourselves no further than the College industry. There have been cottage industries set up in the business of providing the paperwork services for students to aquire loands, grants, and government funding. Those people complained that they cannot shed one single penny off the price of their services lest they go bankrupt. Guess what? Under Clinton the Feds created "Direct Loans" straight to the students, thus rid everyone the burden of having to pay a middle man. Here is what happened, they cleaned up their act and streamlined things to the ponit they were profitable again and provided superior service.
        I still would be interested ro hear how your State is doing under Universal Care?

        I'm not too familiar with the British Health Care system other than they are trying to cut down on the current wait and some have opted to buy optional private care. I know the Government reported there were 1.2 million or 2% of the United Kingdom waiting to get into a hospital for treatment. They don't say whether the treatment was for a knee replacement or a heart transplant just the waiting line to have treatment.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: HealthCare BS?

          J.C., I've seen this man interviewed once before but never at such lenght or in such detail. We can't be so naive as to think the health insurance industry did not have politicians working to protect them by spinning the facts about a government option(no spin zone?). The issue is just so dam complicated, I worked hard to get my medical benefits so I did not like the idea of a gov't option that might jeopardize that. The health insurance industry employs a lot of folks, what would happen if a gov't option started to put them out of business? I have some thoughts and information on the subject but I'm still somewhat ignorant or unsure of how far reaching such a change would be had a gov't option been successful. These countries that have national healthcare prove that health insurance companies are indeed unnecessary middlemen, but here in the land of free market capitalism they are also part of our economic fabric. How do you cut them out without bleeding to death so to speak? The shame of it all is the lengths to which both sides are willing to go in order to win, lies, bribes and peoples health hanging in the balance. So what did we get with this plan? Pre-existing conditions can't be denied? Can folks who get sick still be dropped or denied certain treatments? Will there still be caps on treatment? Don't forget we still have cap and trade looming, unless the EPA is used to circumvent the need for new legislation!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: HealthCare BS?

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            I still would be interested ro hear how your State is doing under Universal Care?

            I'm not too familiar with the British Health Care system other than they are trying to cut down on the current wait and some have opted to buy optional private care. I know the Government reported there were 1.2 million or 2% of the United Kingdom waiting to get into a hospital for treatment. They don't say whether the treatment was for a knee replacement or a heart transplant just the waiting line to have treatment.

            Mark
            It really doesn't matter, I can think of four government programs that work just fine, inspite of the inherent headaches:









            To answer the question, Mass is doing ...well..OK with universal health care. However, not one dime of tax money is going into it. Like automobile insurance, it is simply a law to have health insurance as well. A law that is simply only there to protect the hospitals, not the patients.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: HealthCare BS?

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              J.C., I've seen this man interviewed once before but never at such lenght or in such detail. We can't be so naive as to think the health insurance industry did not have politicians working to protect them by spinning the facts about a government option(no spin zone?). The issue is just so dam complicated, I worked hard to get my medical benefits so I did not like the idea of a gov't option that might jeopardize that. The health insurance industry employs a lot of folks, what would happen if a gov't option started to put them out of business? I have some thoughts and information on the subject but I'm still somewhat ignorant or unsure of how far reaching such a change would be had a gov't option been successful. These countries that have national healthcare prove that health insurance companies are indeed unnecessary middlemen, but here in the land of free market capitalism they are also part of our economic fabric. How do you cut them out without bleeding to death so to speak? The shame of it all is the lengths to which both sides are willing to go in order to win, lies, bribes and peoples health hanging in the balance. So what did we get with this plan? Pre-existing conditions can't be denied? Can folks who get sick still be dropped or denied certain treatments? Will there still be caps on treatment? Don't forget we still have cap and trade looming, unless the EPA is used to circumvent the need for new legislation!
              As I understand some of it, the bill began as a possible "better" for the masses. Still need to do some homework though.

              In it's current state, from the information I'm hearing/reading, it will be worse for the masses. Just a mess right now.

              The countries I listed & the details of their healthcare system do participate in the democracy & capitalist process in some form if I recall correctly.

              For those that wanted to leave things alone, remember, this mess was started because the way things are has become an ever increasing mess and the premium-copayment trend was increasing at a % that the masses will not be able to sustain vs. wages and GDP.

              In short, you get older, you're "risk" to the insurers bottom line goes up so therefore-your premium and co-pays go up. Anyone want to dispute that? Meanwhile, you get older, and your salary typically decreases for the majority of people.

              That cannot sustain itself.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: HealthCare BS?

                My health care provider is Kaiser Permanente. They are a not for profit health care plan which is second to none. It was originally started for men working on the California Aqueduct who could not afford health care. Later Henry Kaiser came in to provide coverage for the workers in his ship yards. I don't see why their plan could not be used elsewhere. They currently provide health care to over 8,000,000 members. They own all of their own hospitals and clinics.

                Mark
                Last edited by ToUtahNow; 12-21-2009, 10:43 PM.
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: HealthCare BS?

                  Where I got the information about the other countries systems. There is a pretty good video on it as well. Better than the Wendell Potter interview to me.

                  They indicate many positives of the other systems but do highlight some of the negatives as well.

                  J.C.

                  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: HealthCare BS?

                    Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                    It really doesn't matter, I can think of four government programs that work just fine, inspite of the inherent headaches:

                    To answer the question, Mass is doing ...well..OK with universal health care. However, not one dime of tax money is going into it. Like automobile insurance, it is simply a law to have health insurance as well. A law that is simply only there to protect the hospitals, not the patients.
                    I think we will all agree our military has to be run by our Government on a National Level. As for firefighters and ambulances they are on a local basis. In some areas they are volunteers, in some they are privately owned and in some areas they are run by local governments. At my home in California they are government agencies. However, with budget cuts they are no longer free. Every time my mom takes a 400-yard ride to the hospital from her senior home we get a bill for $1300. They want to take her back to the home in an ambulance as well but we tell them we can handle it. Of course it seemed a much better service when our taxes alone were paying for it. Now that the costs have risen they have to find other ways to fund it. I don't see health care being any different.

                    As for Commonwealth Care I heard premiums increased almost 10% last year with no stops of increases in sight. In addition, the Legislators are trying to cut people from the State plan because of a major budget short fall.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: HealthCare BS?

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      I think we will all agree our military has to be run by our Government on a National Level. As for firefighters and ambulances they are on a local basis. In some areas they are volunteers, in some they are privately owned and in some areas they are run by local governments. At my home in California they are government agencies. However, with budget cuts they are no longer free. Every time my mom takes a 400-yard ride to the hospital from her senior home we get a bill for $1300. They want to take her back to the home in an ambulance as well but we tell them we can handle it. Of course it seemed a much better service when our taxes alone were paying for it. Now that the costs have risen they have to find other ways to fund it. I don't see health care being any different.

                      As for Commonwealth Care I heard premiums increased almost 10% last year with no stops of increases in sight. In addition, the Legislators are trying to cut people from the State plan because of a major budget short fall.

                      Mark

                      That is whay I stay enlisted in the service. Cheapest health insurance around.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: HealthCare BS?

                        Three of my grand kids were born in Army Hospitals and they all seemed to come out just fine so you are in good hands. When my son Jaysen was in Kosovo his wife was living on base in Germany. She was a little worried the care would not be the same as Stateside but she found it was of the same quality.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: HealthCare BS?

                          Here is a link to a recent article:
                          http://www.masslive.com/opinion/inde...ue_hospit.html

                          A snipit:
                          The state calls them disproportionate share hospitals. In plain English that means hospitals that care for mostly poor patients.

                          Holyoke Medical Center carries that classification, but its ability to continue in that function is being seriously threatened by inadequate state reimbursement for Medicaid patients it treats

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: HealthCare BS?

                            Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                            Here is a link to a recent article:
                            http://www.masslive.com/opinion/inde...ue_hospit.html

                            A snipit:
                            Good read, it looks like the State is not paying their full obligation of medicaid which is probably a different issue than MassHealth but still a big problem. Sadly when the Health Care Bill passes it will only get worse because the States will be responsible to pay a larger share of Medicaid. In addition they will have to pay a portion of Nevada, Florida, Louisiana and Nebraska's costs since Reid gave them a free pass.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: HealthCare BS?

                              I just had a thought regarding Reid. Many say he is committing political suicide right now with the Health Care Bill. Even before he pull all of his tricks it looked like he could not win re-election in Nevada. What if Obama promised him a Cabinet job if he fell on the sword to get Health Care passed?

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: HealthCare BS?

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                I'm starting to wonder if they screw it up bad enough that people will get so pissed and more involved in getting rid of some of these lifetime a##holes. And they did take something with the potential for good and completely FUBAR'ed it.

                                J.C.

                                We need term limits on Senators and Congressmen. There is no reason for someone to sit as a senator for over 50 years. The people from his/her state won't vote them out because they would lose seniority and influential positions on committees.

                                Two terms then you must to sit out a term and you can't run for an office in the same level of government (fed/state/county/local) in any state.

                                and you penalize people for being uninsured
                                But wait...there's more!

                                If your company provided health care benefit or one you pay into on your own has a value over $23,600 , you will pay a 40% tax on the value of that care. that's FORTY PERCENT, not 4%.

                                But wait...there's more!

                                There is a good chance that all health care benefits will be taxed starting in 2014. So those of you who get H&W benefits as part of your pay better watch your wallets.


                                I think my best chance is to run for office and have all youz guyz pay my way and I never have to worry about a thing for the rest of my life.
                                "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                                John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

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