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  • #16
    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

    Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
    He lives in one--do you?
    I am not a student of his country's history and treatment of minorities, nor would I try and make the USA look good by hurling insults. I am proud that given our short history, we have overcome many dark times. Slavery, segregation, women's rights and many more negative times in our past have given way to what I would like to think of as a work in progress. "Liberty and Justice For All" is a goal, not a practical fact. Our population is large, our work as host to the U.N. and job as world police has been costly. Mistakes have been made and I won't defend that there is not much work ahead to make the USA better, but I am proud to be an American--Are you?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      I am not a student of his country's history and treatment of minorities, nor would I try and make the USA look good by hurling insults. I am proud that given our short history, we have overcome many dark times. Slavery, segregation, women's rights and many more negative times in our past have given way to what I would like to think of as a work in progress. "Liberty and Justice For All" is a goal, not a practical fact. Our population is large, our work as host to the U.N. and job as world police has been costly. Mistakes have been made and I won't defend that there is not much work ahead to make the USA better, but I am proud to be an American--Are you?
      Yes I am. Proud enough to stick to the heritage and beliefs I was brought up in and proud enough to stick to them. I don't change horses or beliefs in the middle of the stream just because there are a few rocks in the stream bed that make the ride a little rough.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

        Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
        Yes I am. Proud enough to stick to the heritage and beliefs I was brought up in and proud enough to stick to them. I don't change horses or beliefs in the middle of the stream just because there are a few rocks in the stream bed that make the ride a little rough.
        You and I have different beliefs when it comes to "staying the course". I have no problem rethinking my stand on an issue given new information. Prior to the Presidential election I was very vocal in my upset with the administration. I thought a democratic President would bring change, I hoped he would keep some of his campaign promises, I was wrong and I admit to that!I'll defend my beliefs and actions unless and until I receive information to the contrary. I loved my Dad, he was a good man, hard working and faithful, well intended to a fault. If there was one thing about my Dad that I found a problem with, it was his refusal to admit being wrong. I think it was an old fashioned trait to not show weakness. I am not like that with my daughters. I will follow my heart and mind on a decision, but if either they, or someone else provides me with information to make me think I was wrong, I'll admit that to them. I think the ability to admit mistakes is a sign of strength, not weakness. The democrats and President Obama, have thus far proven to be typical politicians. I have not seen the positive change promised, but if I do, you will see me post that I was wrong. I hope to God , that I can write that post. I am not so high on myself that I can't say I was wrong and mean it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          You and I have different beliefs when it comes to "staying the course". I have no problem rethinking my stand on an issue given new information. Prior to the Presidential election I was very vocal in my upset with the administration. I thought a democratic President would bring change, I hoped he would keep some of his campaign promises, I was wrong and I admit to that!I'll defend my beliefs and actions unless and until I receive information to the contrary. I loved my Dad, he was a good man, hard working and faithful, well intended to a fault. If there was one thing about my Dad that I found a problem with, it was his refusal to admit being wrong. I think it was an old fashioned trait to not show weakness. I am not like that with my daughters. I will follow my heart and mind on a decision, but if either they, or someone else provides me with information to make me think I was wrong, I'll admit that to them. I think the ability to admit mistakes is a sign of strength, not weakness. The democrats and President Obama, have thus far proven to be typical politicians. I have not seen the positive change promised, but if I do, you will see me post that I was wrong. I hope to God , that I can write that post. I am not so high on myself that I can't say I was wrong and mean it.
          I could write a long reply, but it seems like I have struck a nerve, so I won't. Let's wait till all the cards are played out and then one of us can write that post. Happy New Year.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

            Page 114. Line 22. Still reading....

            J.C.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

              Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post
              I could write a long reply, but it seems like I have struck a nerve, so I won't. Let's wait till all the cards are played out and then one of us can write that post. Happy New Year.
              I really hope it will be me writing that post. Happy New Year.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                "staying the course".
                I remember the first time I have heard this term. One image, and only one, comes to mind as it did the first time, especially when I was about to be deployed:



                Captain Edward Smith
                HMS Titanic

                He "stayed the course", look how well he turned out! Oh wait....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  Tony, maybe you could include a list of these caring, civilized countries, so we could learn from them? I'm willing to bet they are not quite as caring or civilized as you might think.

                  Australia, Canada, France, England, Irland, New Zealand etc.

                  Tony

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    We have a young lady who grew up in our home and traveled to Australia on vacation. While there, she met the love of her life and extended her stay. She never came home and soon they were married and moved to Victoria. When they had there first of two kids, her and the baby were not covered under her spouse's coverage. In the United States her husband would have been allowed to add her as a dependant.

                    Mark
                    Medicare is for Autralian citizens to weed out the freeloaders from other countries, was she in a defacto relationship and not married at this time and still was an Americian citizen had she applied for dual citizenship at the time.
                    Her baby once delivered in Australia automatically becomes an Australia citizen and gains all these benefits as an Australian citizen.


                    Tony

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                      Originally posted by AFM View Post
                      Medicare is for Autralian citizens to weed out the freeloaders from other countries, was she in a defacto relationship and not married at this time and still was an Americian citizen had she applied for dual citizenship at the time.
                      Her baby once delivered in Australia automatically becomes an Australia citizen and gains all these benefits as an Australian citizen.


                      Tony
                      I don't know all of the facts but at the time she had been married just short of a year and had applied for permanent residency. They didn't have a problem with the birth not being covered. My point was if he was in the United States, working in the same market his employers coverage would have covered him. Remember, 90% (280,000,000) of those who will be affected by our new Health Bill are already covered.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                        Originally posted by AFM View Post
                        Australia, Canada, France, England, Irland, New Zealand etc.

                        Tony
                        Tony, since you have named, names, then it's fair to bring these countries under scrutiny for their humane behavior.

                        As France races to deport 25,000 illegal immigrants by the end of the year -- a quota set by President Nicolas Sarkozy -- tensions are mounting and the crackdown is taking a toll.

                        Critics say the hunt threatens values in a nation that prides itself on being a cradle of human rights and a land of asylum. Protesters have gathered by the dozens in Paris to protect illegal aliens as police move in.

                        But with three months left in the year, police have caught at least 11,800 immigrants, less than half the target, so Sarkozy has ordered officials to pick up the pace.

                        Ireland has a population of only 3.8 million, one fifth of the number of illegals in the USA. Abortion is illegal and in my opinion protects the unborn but doesn't say much about the rights of the woman. Divorce only recently became possible, once again a lot of women were stuck in bad, possibly abusive relationships. Not very kind and caring in my opinion.
                        I think every country has either a history of less than desired treatment of their citizens, minorities and aliens, illegal or otherwise. The dynamics of the USA, dwarf the countries you mention and so do the problems needing resolution. It is very easy to appear to be a gracious host when you are not over run by party crashers. It is easy to be a generous parent when you have one child instead of twenty. The USA is an open book and fair game for those who are caught up in our problems and bickering. Close examination of other countries, quickly strips away any facade of perfection. I don't doubt the citizens of the fine countries you mentioned are proud and happy to live where they do, I however think the USA is just fine. Does it need to improve? Sure, but give the USA credit for protecting and bailingout many other fine nations. Being a gracious host to the worlds representatives at the U.N. which always backs us, and for sacrificing so many young lives so that the world can be a little safer. I think our humane efforts deserve some mention. Anything nice you would like to say about the USA? Locals invited as well.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                          If France is being inhumane in kicking out 25,000 illegals, what does that say about those that want the 12,000,000 illegals kicked out of the US?

                          The only reason we have illegals here is because they can get jobs. Period. Go after the persons that are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

                          Ireland isn't kind and caring? Interesting. I thought they were one of the most devote Catholic countries?

                          Simply hosting the UN shouldn't in and of itself entitle us to certain exclusive rights and privileges. I agree that the UN is often frustrating, blatantly political and often times works against us. Being an international political body, it will be messy and not always working in our favor. I remember all the outrage over 'old Europe' not joining our little farce over in Iraq. Germany and France, having significant Muslim populations and business dealings Iraq too, could not afford to upset those apple carts. The excursion was counter-productive to their best interests. But boy oh boy, were they skewered over here. They lost their BFF privileges with us.

                          The US is indeed the greatest nation the world has seen. But it is only through critical self examination and constant vigilance that we remain such. It is not unpatriotic to call out instances were we fail to live up to our ideals, but rather it is the duties of patriotic citizens to recognize a wrong and seek to correct it.

                          The internment camps of WWII are not our proudest moment. The civil rights marches were a black eye on the ideal that we a nation where all men are created equal. There are many more moments in our history were we have not adhered to the values we project to the world. But we are also no different in that regard than any other country. It's difficult to always walk the walk.

                          Sure we've provided aid and resources to many countries. Often times these resources were purely for benevolent, just purposes. But we have also lent aid and resources for purely strategic purposes as well, in the name of business or national security.

                          My country, right or wrong. But when I see my country doing wrong, I am obligated to try to fix it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            If France is being inhumane in kicking out 25,000 illegals, what does that say about those that want the 12,000,000 illegals kicked out of the US?

                            The only reason we have illegals here is because they can get jobs. Period. Go after the persons that are breaking the law by hiring illegals.

                            Ireland isn't kind and caring? Interesting. I thought they were one of the most devote Catholic countries?

                            Simply hosting the UN shouldn't in and of itself entitle us to certain exclusive rights and privileges. I agree that the UN is often frustrating, blatantly political and often times works against us. Being an international political body, it will be messy and not always working in our favor. I remember all the outrage over 'old Europe' not joining our little farce over in Iraq. Germany and France, having significant Muslim populations and business dealings Iraq too, could not afford to upset those apple carts. The excursion was counter-productive to their best interests. But boy oh boy, were they skewered over here. They lost their BFF privileges with us.

                            The US is indeed the greatest nation the world has seen. But it is only through critical self examination and constant vigilance that we remain such. It is not unpatriotic to call out instances were we fail to live up to our ideals, but rather it is the duties of patriotic citizens to recognize a wrong and seek to correct it.

                            The internment camps of WWII are not our proudest moment. The civil rights marches were a black eye on the ideal that we a nation where all men are created equal. There are many more moments in our history were we have not adhered to the values we project to the world. But we are also no different in that regard than any other country. It's difficult to always walk the walk.

                            Sure we've provided aid and resources to many countries. Often times these resources were purely for benevolent, just purposes. But we have also lent aid and resources for purely strategic purposes as well, in the name of business or national security.

                            My country, right or wrong. But when I see my country doing wrong, I am obligated to try to fix it.
                            I am in complete agreement that we should always strive to have the best America and if it takes criticizing republicans or democrats so be it! The internmment of Japanese Americans during WW11 was indeed a dark time in our history. Those folks lost their jobs and homes simply because of their heritage and ethnicity, and the anticipated difficultiesand fear of allowing them to remain part of the free public was thought to pose. Roughly two hundred Japanese Americans died during that time and the losses suffered by the remaining hundred thousand could never be repaid. Would you care to comment on how Japan and Germany behaved during the same time in history? Oh, right that doesn't matter. I'm not for kicking out the twenty million or so illegals living here, but I want either the republican or democratic run government to address the situation and come up with a humane resolution. We deserve secure borders, we deserve to know who is in our country, we deserve to have people who benefit from our many taxpayer paid programs and services to contribute. The illegals deserve to work in safety, free from the abuse they endure as a subculture. America provides much more than jobs, please mention the laundry list of corruption and horrors that drive people to leave their countries of origin. I did not support our occupying of iraq and the loss of American lives and cost to the taxpayers, but dethroning that monster and his clan of torturing, raping and murdering thugs was not a farce. Fight for a better America but at the very least be honest with the details and certainly the deficits of others.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                              "Would you care to comment on how Japan and Germany behaved during the same time in history? Oh, right that doesn't matter."

                              So any criticism of our country has to be considered in relative terms, internationally? I'm less concerned with what other countries do than I am with what my country does. We are suppose to lead by example. We set the standard. I think you are projecting when you say that it "doesn't matter."

                              Sadam and Iraq were originally a strategic ally. What changed that caused us to decide we needed to rebuild that nation? There are monstrous regimes the world over, what is the litmus test for whether or not we invade?

                              We don't deserve secure borders. No one deserves secure borders. We require, we absolutely need, secure borders. Deserve has nothing to do with it. Fine and jail the people that hire illegals. It really is that simple. Their actions directly contribute to the illegals coming here. If you have a pest problem do you not get rid of their food source?


                              "Fight for a better America but at the very least be honest with the details and certainly the deficits of others."

                              So as an analogy, let's say your son misbehaves. You sit him down and tell him that his behavior was unacceptable and tell him how he is expected to behave. But then you tell him that because the kid across the street is a really bad apple, his behavior, relatively speaking, is pretty good.

                              Since when do we measure our nation on the failings and short comings of other nations? It isn't a matter of comparison. WE set the standard by walking the walk.

                              I think it sufficient to say America is the greatest country, without qualification. If you feel the need to qualify our nations stature by pointing out the deficiencies of all other nations, knock yourself out.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                                Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                                "Would you care to comment on how Japan and Germany behaved during the same time in history? Oh, right that doesn't matter."

                                So any criticism of our country has to be considered in relative terms, internationally? I'm less concerned with what other countries do than I am with what my country does. We are suppose to lead by example. We set the standard. I think you are projecting when you say that it "doesn't matter."

                                Sadam and Iraq were originally a strategic ally. What changed that caused us to decide we needed to rebuild that nation? There are monstrous regimes the world over, what is the litmus test for whether or not we invade?

                                We don't deserve secure borders. No one deserves secure borders. We require, we absolutely need, secure borders. Deserve has nothing to do with it. Fine and jail the people that hire illegals. It really is that simple. Their actions directly contribute to the illegals coming here. If you have a pest problem do you not get rid of their food source?


                                "Fight for a better America but at the very least be honest with the details and certainly the deficits of others."

                                So as an analogy, let's say your son misbehaves. You sit him down and tell him that his behavior was unacceptable and tell him how he is expected to behave. But then you tell him that because the kid across the street is a really bad apple, his behavior, relatively speaking, is pretty good.

                                Since when do we measure our nation on the failings and short comings of other nations? It isn't a matter of comparison. WE set the standard by walking the walk.

                                I think it sufficient to say America is the greatest country, without qualification. If you feel the need to qualify our nations stature by pointing out the deficiencies of all other nations, knock yourself out.
                                "that doesn't matter" was meant to be scarcastic. I think everything we do as a country, people is relative. Behavior, actions, are relative, because without the comparisons you set some indiscriminate goal, standard. Yes, I absolutely believe the behavior of others must be included when maligning our country. That does not excuse our bad or unacceptable behavior but it does provide something to guage by. Setting the standard and walking the walk, makes for some trips and falls along the way. The USA as I have said before is a work in progress, compared to many other countries we are the gold standard. I'd like to get back to our specific political partys for a moment. I have often criticized the republican party/administration for bad behavior, not following the will of the people. The democrats will not get a free pass from me even though I voted for our current President, unless better behavior is displayed. They must prove they are better and deserving by their deeds, so far I consider them just as bad! Unlike some here who imagine the democrats to be better by attacking the republicans, I agree, knock yourself out. The losers are neither political party but rather the country as a whole. The idea of comparison is to point out that you don't want your kid, country or political party to be as bad as the example you are citing. Now, is America great? Yes, in my opinion. Perfect? Certainly not, your example of the intenment of Japanese Americans made that point. Better by comparison to what Japan and Germany did during WWII? Without a doubt. Has the republican party resolved the issue of illegal aliens, secured our borders, addressed the trade deficit, outsourcing of jobs, bailouts, stimulus, war? No, and thus far neither has this democratic administration. I maintain that unless and until I see a marked difference, improvement, they are very similar.

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