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  • #31
    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

    The differences between the two parties are minimal. They both represent corporate America, which is perfectly acceptable, and preferred by some folks on this forum.

    The current congress, senate specifically, is being obstructed at every turn because the minority party disagrees with the majority party. Every parliamentary and political trick in the book is being played. They've no interest in compromise. At least they are consistent. When they were in the majority they could care less what the minority had to say and refused to offer them a voice in the process or any credible input. Now, if they can't have it their way they are perfectly content to bring the whole process to a halt.

    I hope they realize that once they find themselves in the majority, the play book they have been writing can be used by the dems. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

    The republic party refuses to respect the process. They are unable to appreciate that the people of this country have placed them in the minority because the republic party does not represent the views of the vast majority. The republic party needs to know their role and stop pandering to the twenty two percenters.

    I do not believe that corporations deserve a seat at the table. They should not be allowed to write the bills that become the laws that regulate them. Would you let a burglar change the locks on your house?

    I was not maligning America. Being critical of decisions made by our elected officials, whether it be bailing out Wall Street, cutting taxes for trust fund babies or committing our treasury and blood under questionable motivations (this was a political gamble, if this whole mess turns out great in 50 years, Bush will be seen as a brilliant visionary, meanwhile the region has not been this unstable in generations and some very real thermonuclear threats exist at this time) is not maligning America. We see pundits maligning our CIC but their patriotism isn't questioned. Wasn't very long ago that ANY less than complimentary remark about Bush would have set off an avalanche of vicious, vile and hateful remarks from specific types of people. The twenty two percenters.

    Gone are the days were we can have honest disagreements. Paper patriots stand at the ready to cry foul at the slightest comment that does not offer America up as the gods greatest gift to mankind.
    Last edited by SpiffPeters; 12-30-2009, 09:59 AM.

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    • #32
      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

      Opposing view points have been allowed on this Forum and for the most part the differing opinions have remained respectful. When it comes to political power and dirty politics here in the USA, what's good for the goose is not really good for the goose or the gander and most certainly not good for the people! The debates on this Forum got very heated when President Bush was in office. There were those who felt nothing negative should be said about our President, his administration or their policies. I felt our freedom to dissent strengthens our democracy and I feel no different now with the current President and administration. I have no problem with people who take sides and point out deficits of our great country, but I believe I have the right to speak my mind as well. I respect but do not agree that it is constructive and in the spirit of fairness to criticize our great country without taking to task the other countries that make up the global community. We should always remain diligent in our efforts to protect and strengthen our democracy. We should demand the same of our elected officials, but I believe they have failed us and our country repeatedly. I did not appreciate the behavior of some conservatives when I spoke my mind in opposition to what I felt was wrong with the Bush administration, and now I am hearing the same things from liberals. If you believe your political party represents and speaks for the people, then stop trying to shut us up and listen to what the people have to say! "Yes, We Can". oh really? I'm still waiting.
      Last edited by Frankiarmz; 12-30-2009, 12:47 PM.

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      • #33
        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

        I'm an independent. I vote Green Party at local levels, and usually dem at national levels. For now. The republic party is demonstrably corrupt.

        The republic party and their base is beyond reasoning. Quite simply, until they get exactly what they want, they will do everything in their power to stop the process. The hypocrisy they display is beyond any historical comparison. You can not negotiate with a party that refuses everything but complete submission to their agenda. They are certain they are correct and refuse to allow the will of the majority to prevail. To call their attitude childish diminishes the scope of the harm they are inflicting upon this country.

        What unfair criticisms are you hearing from liberals?

        Are you suggesting that there be some kind of Fairness Doctrine when we criticize our country? If I say something less than complimentary about the US I have to provide evidence that at least we aren't as bad as another country? Aside from being ridiculous, I can say anything I want about this country and if you object you may retort.

        I'm going to guess that the average poster here is far more patriotic than the transnational corporations they defend. Corporations have no sense of loyalty or patriotism. The only thing they worship is the dollar. Pure and simple. They owe no allegiance to any nation, state, county, city or work force. Their sole purpose is to make money no matter what.

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        • #34
          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

          What I'm hearing from liberals is the same garbage I heard from conservatives when they tried to shut down any critism of their candidate and administration and policies. There is no "fairness" doctrine that I'm aware of, I was just expressing my opinion. Once again in "my" opinion to be "fair" when criticizing the USA, one should consider the deficits of other countries. I am not demanding that of anyone, it is simply my opinion. Just as you would not want to be forced to follow my suggestions, I would hope you would respect the same of myself and others. I too have a right to voice my thoughts even if they are not the same as yours. Have we lost that right? Is that part of the change I voted for?

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          • #35
            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            Tony, since you have named, names, then it's fair to bring these countries under scrutiny for their humane behavior.

            As France races to deport 25,000 illegal immigrants by the end of the year -- a quota set by President Nicolas Sarkozy -- tensions are mounting and the crackdown is taking a toll.

            Critics say the hunt threatens values in a nation that prides itself on being a cradle of human rights and a land of asylum. Protesters have gathered by the dozens in Paris to protect illegal aliens as police move in.

            But with three months left in the year, police have caught at least 11,800 immigrants, less than half the target, so Sarkozy has ordered officials to pick up the pace.

            Ireland has a population of only 3.8 million, one fifth of the number of illegals in the USA. Abortion is illegal and in my opinion protects the unborn but doesn't say much about the rights of the woman. Divorce only recently became possible, once again a lot of women were stuck in bad, possibly abusive relationships. Not very kind and caring in my opinion.
            I think every country has either a history of less than desired treatment of their citizens, minorities and aliens, illegal or otherwise. The dynamics of the USA, dwarf the countries you mention and so do the problems needing resolution. It is very easy to appear to be a gracious host when you are not over run by party crashers. It is easy to be a generous parent when you have one child instead of twenty. The USA is an open book and fair game for those who are caught up in our problems and bickering. Close examination of other countries, quickly strips away any facade of perfection. I don't doubt the citizens of the fine countries you mentioned are proud and happy to live where they do, I however think the USA is just fine. Does it need to improve? Sure, but give the USA credit for protecting and bailingout many other fine nations. Being a gracious host to the worlds representatives at the U.N. which always backs us, and for sacrificing so many young lives so that the world can be a little safer. I think our humane efforts deserve some mention. Anything nice you would like to say about the USA? Locals invited as well.
            Frank

            I knew I was oppening a pandorers box when trying to put my point of view to you an outsiders views for I am not am Americian I am an Australian from the same mother conutry, you must have been doing a lot of googerling with all your fact and fiqures but it dosen`t alter my point a countries responibility is to provide for its citizens basic welfare as many much smaller countries do but on reading your view its everyone for themselves.
            America has been a great country helping out all that have come forward and how many of them have been true friends when you asked them for help? but the party is over your bankrupt and the days of glory are over and will have to live within you means and all the monies spent in Iraq, Afganistan should have been spent a home on health housing and whatever your citizens need your priorities are all wrong and if a country as small as Australia with twenty odd million citizens can afford medicare then a country the size of the US can and all your excusses facts and figures don`t wash.

            Tony

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            • #36
              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

              AFM - "a countries responibility is to provide for its citizens basic welfare"

              Here is the preamble of our constitution:

              "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

              The righties believe in the justice and common defense part of the preamble but take a very peculiar stance on the 'insure domestice tranquility' and 'promote the general welfare' part of the constitution.

              You are correct that it is every man for himself in the US. And if you happen to get between one man and his goal, good luck too you. Greed is rewarded and anything less is held in contempt.

              Yes, all the capital that has been squandered in the middle east would have served us better here. Since our little excursion, the cost of oil has done nothing but skyrocket.

              But it was your boy, Rupert Murdoch, that has played a major part in greasing the skids. His media empire has been very effective in dividing our country and spreading right wing propaganda. His broadcast network is run by hardline RNC operatives and their on air personalities are complete sellouts who lie at any and every opportunity to advance the right wings agenda. They have been caught so many times reading RNC daily talking points on air and passing them off as a news story that no objective analysis could call them journalists.

              I wish you guys would take back Rupert.

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              • #37
                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                Does "promote the general welfare" mean that I can sit back on my *** and let others provide for me?
                Also what part of the Constitution gives the government the right to fine people for not having insurance?
                Also is there not a part of the Constitution that says that any powers not specifically given to the governmant are reserved for the states? I'm not sure of the exact wording but I believe that is the intent.
                Obama and his cronies act like the Constitution doesn't apply to them.
                When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

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                • #38
                  Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                  I wish you guys would take back Rupert.[/QUOTE]

                  No we don`t want him he sold his Australian citizenship for thirty pieces of silver please don`t send him back I`ll send you some more silver.

                  Tony

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                  • #39
                    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                    Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                    Does "promote the general welfare" mean that I can sit back on my *** and let others provide for me?
                    Also what part of the Constitution gives the government the right to fine people for not having insurance?
                    Also is there not a part of the Constitution that says that any powers not specifically given to the governmant are reserved for the states? I'm not sure of the exact wording but I believe that is the intent.
                    Obama and his cronies act like the Constitution doesn't apply to them.
                    I don`t know how many times I have to explain this medicare in Australia is not free everyone except the eldely and unemployed pay a percentage of thier taxable income which gives them access to a doctor and hospital in an emergancy but if it is not an emergency then you can wait weeks or even months after seeing a doctor to get into a hospital I also have private health cover which gets me into hospital straight away after seeing my doctor, I pay around $600.00 for medicare and around $1200.00 per year for private health cover which pays for the lot in a paticapating hospital, I don`t know where you lot get the sit on the backside mentallity nothing is free everyone contributes in their way so what the hell is wrong with that in a so called civilised society

                    Tony

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                    • #40
                      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                      Originally posted by AFM View Post
                      Frank

                      I knew I was oppening a pandorers box when trying to put my point of view to you an outsiders views for I am not am Americian I am an Australian from the same mother conutry, you must have been doing a lot of googerling with all your fact and fiqures but it dosen`t alter my point a countries responibility is to provide for its citizens basic welfare as many much smaller countries do but on reading your view its everyone for themselves.
                      America has been a great country helping out all that have come forward and how many of them have been true friends when you asked them for help? but the party is over your bankrupt and the days of glory are over and will have to live within you means and all the monies spent in Iraq, Afganistan should have been spent a home on health housing and whatever your citizens need your priorities are all wrong and if a country as small as Australia with twenty odd million citizens can afford medicare then a country the size of the US can and all your excusses facts and figures don`t wash.

                      Tony
                      Tony, I did use google to find some facts about ireland and france not embarassed to admit to that. I quickly found as I had expected they are not shangrila themselves. I don't argue that our country is overextended, in debt to china and priorities did not include the homeland. These decisions were not anything I or most of the electorate agreed to, the two party system we have has only furthered their own interests. I'm not very confident in a recovery, I can't imagine how we can survive or rebuild with the outflow of money to the war effort, and consumer spending which largely goes to imported goods. I am not a student of Australian economics, you would know better than I. I'm guessing if the priorities of our government were different and money spent on foreign aid, the space program and other such things were focused on providing healthcare, industry, infrastructure, etc, the USA would be in a very different situation. Happy New Year.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                        Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                        Does "promote the general welfare" mean that I can sit back on my *** and let others provide for me?
                        No it means we have publicly funded institutions that serve the greater good of the community. Police, fire, schools, roads, highways, bridges, FAA, FCC, EPA, FDA...... We all pay SSI, but how many retiree's end up drawing more out of SSI and Medicare than they ever paid in? I don't hear them complaining. I suggest that anyone retiree that thinks the government needs to get out of their lives send back your SSI checks and buy your own private insurance plan.

                        Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                        Also what part of the Constitution gives the government the right to fine people for not having insurance?
                        On this I do agree with you, as do most people. I haven't spoke or posted with anyone that likes the mandate. I hope you don't mean to suggest the liberals are pleased with the mandate because they are not.

                        Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                        Bush and his cronies act like the Constitution doesn't apply to them
                        Had to fix that one for you. As for Obama, what exactly has he done that is unconstitutional? Please be specific.
                        Last edited by SpiffPeters; 12-31-2009, 11:51 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                          Tony, my reply was to post #36. Not to any of your posts. Sorry for the mix up.
                          When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                            Is the Social Security System your idea of a good government publicly funded institution? I started paying SS taxes when I joined the Marine Corps at 19. I paid them all of my life until I started drawing SS at 63. I can guarantee you that had the money paid to the SS system been put into a private interest drawing account I would be able to draw a lot more out of it than I am getting now. The SS system now is nothing like it was intended to be when founded. But the government (republicans and democrats) cannot be trusted with large sums of money. They will find ways to use it to buy votes.
                            The health care bill involves very large sums of money again. Do you trust the government to do what is right with it? If this bill passes, five years down the road it will look nothing like it does now. Special interest groups will have bought enough politicians that it will be riddled with exceptions and special provisions favoring them. I read something a while back about three or four hospitals that are exempt from the bill being considered. They were not named but rather refered to as hospitals that had been awarded the status of "comprehensive cancer centers" at different times. I wish I had paid more attention to the article. I'll research it more when I have the time.

                            On another note, how constitutional is it for the rest of the country to pay for Nebraska's health care? Could somebody be using health care money to buy votes? I wonder who? But that is being challenged by several states so it may not come to be law. I wonder why no Democrats are challenging this blatently unconstitutional and self serving action?
                            Last edited by DSurette; 01-01-2010, 10:07 AM. Reason: spelling
                            When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                              Where were the teabaggers in 2003? You'll pardon the rest of us if we don't buy the teabagger's hypocrisy.

                              Compared to the Medicare Part D was put together and foisted on Americans, the HRC act is about as transparent as one could hope for. Sure, Reid kept the final bill under wraps while the CBO did their cost analysis (even Durbin didn't know what was in the bill). As was stated but rarely reported, Reid did this so that the bill would not be picked apart and further politicized before the CBO could calculate the costs. Given the myriad of tactics employed by the republics, the CBO would never have been able to finish their cost analysis.

                              And how much time did congress have to read the Patriot Act? That was a master stroke by Bush and company. Force a bill called The Patriot Act on congress, with no time to read it, right before mid term elections. How many congressmen could have voted no on that one without being branded unpatriotic? Perhaps Obama needs to take a page out of Rove's play book.

                              Louise M. Slaughter, Master of Public Health:


                              "The current problems with Medicare Part D are largely the direct result of the undemocratic way in which the plan was authored and passed. The final legislation, heavily influenced by drug-company and health insurance lobbyists, focused mainly on the needs of those industries instead of those of the seniors it should serve.

                              The political process used to pass Part D was the worst abuse of the legislative process I have seen during my 20 years in Congress. In the months before its passage, a few powerful Republican leaders worked to undermine conscientious reform proposals. In early 2003, while the House bill was being drafted, Democrats and Republicans authored 59 sensible amendments to it. At the behest of the Republican leadership, however, the House Committee on Rules rejected all but one, preventing them from being debated by Congress. Many of those amendments — among them, one requiring the administration to use beneficiaries' collective purchasing power to negotiate lower prices and one allowing Americans to import cheaper drugs from Canada — would have made the legislation far more effective and probably would have received bipartisan support, had they been allowed onto the floor.

                              Next, the conference process, whereby the House and Senate versions of legislation are reconciled, was fundamentally corrupted and kept almost entirely secret by senior Republicans. Democrats on the conference committee were excluded from deliberations, to the point of being physically barred from the conference room on one occasion. The pharmaceutical industry, however, was invited in.

                              Serious conflicts of interest on the part of the bill's primary authors were common. The chairman of the Commerce Committee, Representative Billy Tauzin (R-La.), coauthored the bill while negotiating a $2-million-per-year job as a lobbyist for the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), the drug industry's trade organization. The top Republican aide on a subcommittee involved in writing the legislation also left his position soon afterward to lobby for PhRMA. Thomas Scully, the administration's top Medicare official, deliberately understated the program's projected cost by $134 billion, and when the chief actuary of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) objected, Scully reportedly threatened to fire him if he shared his true estimate with Congress. Soon after the legislation passed, Scully resumed his career as a health care–industry lobbyist.

                              When the conference report was brought to the House for a vote, members were given less than one day to read the 850-page bill, a violation of House rules. When the vote was called at almost 3 a.m., voting Democrats stood unanimously with 22 Republicans in opposing the legislation. Had the vote been gaveled down in the customary 15 minutes, the bill would not have passed."


                              "... how constitutional is it for the rest of the country to pay for Nebraska's health care? Could somebody be using health care money to buy votes? I wonder who? But that is being challenged by several states so it may not come to be law. I wonder why no Democrats are challenging this blatently unconstitutional and self serving action?"

                              I've not seen, read, heard or spoken with anyone that thinks this was acceptable. I don't think it is constitution either. Between this and the mandate, I have serious reservations about the bill. But I'll keep my powder dry until the bill comes out of committee.

                              BTW, what exactly is it that private health insurance companies do that Medicare can't do?
                              Last edited by SpiffPeters; 01-01-2010, 11:08 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                                I going to assume I am among the "younger" members of this website (30 years old), and thus due to my youth, I am less effected by these healthcare issues and the inherent costs than others. Also factor in on the belief I hold dear: "Best Interest"

                                On this premise, I must ask the following: With the power triangle between us the customers, the pharmaceutical industry, and the health insurance industry, why is there such corruption, confusion, and waste within the enterprise regarding health and safety?

                                The pharmaceutical industry has the best interest of selling the finest treatments and cures they can provide at a price that is both low and yet profitable. The consumer (Be it patient or hospital company) has the best interest of finding the best medicines to purchase at a reasonable price. The Health insurance industry has the best interest of keeping their clients in the healthiest states possible while collecting such premiums from those clients, in the meantime best connecting such sickened or injured clients to the best practicitioners and medicines available to quickly get such a client back on their feet and working again to collect their due premuims again.

                                My question is this: Where is the disconnect? Why is such an industry so vital, yet dysfunctional, to the point where the cost of such premiums is so prohibitive that there are a significant number of people whom accept the "**** it" approach and just head through the hospitals' emergancy entrance to get the care they need?

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