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  • #46
    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

    The health insurance industry is profit driven. The only way to ensure profits is to reduce costs. In virtually any other enterprise this is desirable. The model only works on commodities, not matters of life and death.

    What I find odd is that many people are perfectly happy to continue to pay almost twice as much as the next highest priced health care system with questionably diminished results. If the dollar is the truest barometer of efficiency, then why do we continue to throw good money after bad?

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
      But Senator Orrin Hatch explained that when he justified to the press why he was unwilling to support a deficit neutral health care bill now when not so many years ago under Bush the senate supported the medicare expansion bill that increased the deficit. I can't make this stuff up

      'back then it was standard practice not to pay for things'

      Well after years or standard practice by Republican rule we have lots of debt wonder why that is.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

        boytyperanma - Back then generational theft was permissible. How many budgets did the Iraq war get included in? If you said none, then you are correct. Apparently when the emergency appropriations ran dry they went back to congress and asked for more money because they were always within six months of turning the corner. The war was never a budget item because that would have been politically difficult to defend.

        Obama waits 72 hours to comment on the Christmas bomber and he gets villified for waiting so long. Meanwhile Bush waited six days to make a comment. Obama gets vilified for putting the Christmas bomber into our legal system the same way Bush/Cheney did with the shoe bomber.

        And wasn't it guys Cheney ordered released from Gitmo, against the advice of the military, that trained this bomber? Haven't we seen enough blow back by now?

        How the hypocrisy and outright lies the used by the right does not disqaulify them from any debate is a testament to the anger and rage that is drummed up daily by the right wing pundits.

        I agree with Frank that if we are going to be critical of our government, we need to moderate those critisisms with all the things our government gets right. Which in a country of 300 million people is no small feat.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

          I believe Obama has a bigger target on him because of what he promised in the campaign. He promised bipartisanship and transparency and instead we got more of the same. He proposed talking to Iran unconditionally and now they are moving ahead at break-neck speed and say they will increase their nuclear program ten-fold. His Administration wanted to ban the word terrorist and handle things as a criminal manner which most feel is a bad idea. Bush had his problems but Obama is catching up quickly and he has just started. Obama has had a free ride from the press but even they are start to be more critical of the way he is handling things. They are also asking when Obama is going to stop blaming everything on Bush and start owning some of what is going on.

          It is easy to say Health Care is a Right but that does not make it so. Barney Franks has stated being a homeowner is everyone's right and he tried to make it so with a ton of junk loans. Just because it feels good to say everyone has a Right to ******* does not make it so. I believe most of us feel we need Health Care reform but the right reform at the right time seems more prudent. Almost 90% of the US currently has coverage of some type. Are we jeopardizing our current system by trying to help the 10% who are not covered?

          Mark
          Last edited by ToUtahNow; 01-01-2010, 05:56 PM.
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            Barney Franks has stated being a homeowner is everyone's right and he tried to make it so with a ton of junk loans.
            It is easy to pick on Barney Frank and point blame at him because of his position as the head of the House Financial Services Committee but in statements like yours you unfairly demonize him. Yes he believes everyone has a right to be a home owner. Yes he was probably unfairly biased towards Fannie May and Freddie Mac. It however was not him that pressured them into offering junk loans. He actually opposed it, there is little debate on that issue. It was the Bush administration that pressured the junk loans.

            Barney Frank's reasons for opposing the junk loans is another matter entirely as his opposition may have had more to do with helping those companies profitability then it did in the interest of good policy.

            Barney Frank proposes more financial regulation bills then any other congressman. You can take that as good or bad. He makes his arguments and often loses to those in favor of not regulating.

            I'm currently very angry at Barney Frank for a number of his recent stances but I will defend him from soaking all of the blame for our financial troubles unless you are going to argue he didn't advocate hard enough against his fellow congressman and the former administration.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

              Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
              It is easy to pick on Barney Frank and point blame at him because of his position as the head of the House Financial Services Committee but in statements like yours you unfairly demonize him. Yes he believes everyone has a right to be a home owner. Yes he was probably unfairly biased towards Fannie May and Freddie Mac. It however was not him that pressured them into offering junk loans. He actually opposed it, there is little debate on that issue. It was the Bush administration that pressured the junk loans.

              Barney Frank's reasons for opposing the junk loans is another matter entirely as his opposition may have had more to do with helping those companies profitability then it did in the interest of good policy.

              Barney Frank proposes more financial regulation bills then any other congressman. You can take that as good or bad. He makes his arguments and often loses to those in favor of not regulating.

              I'm currently very angry at Barney Frank for a number of his recent stances but I will defend him from soaking all of the blame for our financial troubles unless you are going to argue he didn't advocate hard enough against his fellow congressman and the former administration.
              Some say the blame goes all the way back to Carter, Franks says the Government (Bush included) had nothing to do with it, it was all the greed of the public sector. My problem with Franks is when the Bush Administration tried to pull in the reigns on Fannie May and Freddie Mac, as the downward spiral started years ago, Franks stated "these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis." He then complained Bush was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                Almost 90% of the US currently has coverage of some type. Are we jeopardizing our current system by trying to help the 10% who are not covered?
                The reason for the urgency of a new health care plan was more based on data showing an expected loss of 2% of covered Americans per year then it was helping the 10% uncovered people. Health care costs are rising out of control in ten years without change you'd have 70% with coverage of some type and 30% with no coverage.

                So it is not a question of jeopardizing our current system to help those 10 percent, it is more a question of getting ahead of this before the 90% join them.

                I think the argument for the 10% has come up because its much easier to quanitify and identify the people without insurance then it is the people that will be without insurance.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  My problem with Franks is when the Bush Administration tried to pull in the reigns on Fannie May and Freddie Mac, as the downward spiral started years ago, Franks stated "these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis." He then complained Bush was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.
                  The Bush administration was not trying to pull the reigns on Fannie May or Freddie Mac, they were trying to take the monitoring and regulation of those companies from the senate committee and create a new agency for doing so. That agency never came into being and it's unknown if they would have done anything. I have to agree with Frank's stance on constitutional ground the monitoring(i guess that ones debatable) and regulation belongs in congress not the executive branch.

                  At the same time he was arguing against a take over from the executive branch he and Mike Oxley(R) had already proposed a bill to further regulate those companies which the Bush administration opposed.

                  Frank was obviously wrong about the financial status of those companies and has since acknowledge that.

                  If you have any evidence the Bush administration tried to reign in those companies I'd like to see it. They did try to take congressional regulation from congress but that is not the same. If they were serious about reigning them in they could have easily had bills proposed to congress and supported them rather then threatening veto any and all bills that would have reigned those companies in.

                  If my word on the subject is inadequate maybe what Lawrence B. Lindsey, a former economic adviser to President George W. Bush, had to say at the start of the housing crisis, is more relevant to the subject “Barney Frank is the only politician I know who has argued that we needed tighter rules that intentionally produce fewer homeowners and more renters"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                    Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                    The reason for the urgency of a new health care plan was more based on data showing an expected loss of 2% of covered Americans per year then it was helping the 10% uncovered people. Health care costs are rising out of control in ten years without change you'd have 70% with coverage of some type and 30% with no coverage.

                    So it is not a question of jeopardizing our current system to help those 10 percent, it is more a question of getting ahead of this before the 90% join them.

                    I think the argument for the 10% has come up because its much easier to quanitify and identify the people without insurance then it is the people that will be without insurance.
                    See now we are talking semantics. This is like how Obama transitioned from creating jobs (a quantifiable number) to saving jobs (totally made up numbers). Those losing coverage are losing it mainly because they are losing their jobs. However, instead of focusing on real job creation, we are creating legislation which will likely cause more jobs to be lost.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                      I'm so confused I need a milkshake.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        See now we are talking semantics. This is like how Obama transitioned from creating jobs (a quantifiable number) to saving jobs (totally made up numbers). Those losing coverage are losing it mainly because they are losing their jobs. However, instead of focusing on real job creation, we are creating legislation which will likely cause more jobs to be lost.

                        Mark
                        Not really. But here is a different way of looking at it. In the past ten years health insurance premiums have doubled. With no leveling of the trend in sight, how much longer are employers and families willing or able to absorb the costs? Not likely another ten years. If premiums only rise by 50% over the next ten years I think we will see a significant number of people canceling their policies. When forced to choose between food, shelter or insurance, it's a pretty easy pick.

                        What exactly does private insurance provide that expanded Medicare can not provide?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                          Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                          The Bush administration was not trying to pull the reigns on Fannie May or Freddie Mac, they were trying to take the monitoring and regulation of those companies from the senate committee and create a new agency for doing so. That agency never came into being and it's unknown if they would have done anything. I have to agree with Frank's stance on constitutional ground the monitoring(i guess that ones debatable) and regulation belongs in congress not the executive branch.

                          At the same time he was arguing against a take over from the executive branch he and Mike Oxley(R) had already proposed a bill to further regulate those companies which the Bush administration opposed.

                          Frank was obviously wrong about the financial status of those companies and has since acknowledge that.

                          If you have any evidence the Bush administration tried to reign in those companies I'd like to see it. They did try to take congressional regulation from congress but that is not the same. If they were serious about reigning them in they could have easily had bills proposed to congress and supported them rather then threatening veto any and all bills that would have reigned those companies in.

                          If my word on the subject is inadequate maybe what Lawrence B. Lindsey, a former economic adviser to President George W. Bush, had to say at the start of the housing crisis, is more relevant to the subject “Barney Frank is the only politician I know who has argued that we needed tighter rules that intentionally produce fewer homeowners and more renters"
                          Again we will have to agree to disagree. What purpose would the Bush Administration have for having the Treasury watch Fannie and Freddie if not to control risk? At the time it was called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry." It was meant to save Fannie and Freddie after Freddie got caught cooking the books. The Bush Administration wanted to start a new agency in the Treasury which would closely regulate the capital reserve requirements and the management of risk for Fannie and Freddie. Franks busted a blood vessel over it saying Bush was trying to stiffle minority housing. Another famous Franks quote at the time was ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.'' In retrospect it appears Fannie and Freddie were not quite as solvent as Franks claimed.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            Not really. But here is a different way of looking at it. In the past ten years health insurance premiums have doubled. With no leveling of the trend in sight, how much longer are employers and families willing or able to absorb the costs? Not likely another ten years. If premiums only rise by 50% over the next ten years I think we will see a significant number of people canceling their policies. When forced to choose between food, shelter or insurance, it's a pretty easy pick.

                            What exactly does private insurance provide that expanded Medicare can not provide?
                            See you are making a totally different argument. Controlling the cost of Health Care is a different beast and something we can all agree on. Why is it tort reform was not included in the Bill as passed? Why is it some States are given a free pass which is passed on to other States? Why are insurance companies who provide coverage to major Unions getting a tax break? The above measures have nothing to do with cutting my Health Care costs, what about yours?

                            Mark

                            BTW: Wasn't Expanded Medicare dropped from the final bill?
                            Last edited by ToUtahNow; 01-01-2010, 08:00 PM.
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                              I'm so confused I need a milkshake.

                              J.C.
                              I agree I think I have some baileys left over from last night.

                              These things are pretty complicated we should elect some guys who's job it is to take care of these things.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Senate Passes Health Care

                                Yes, there is another example of the previous administration not having any regard for the constitution or able to work within the constraints intentionally put in place. Bush tried and was rather successful in aggregating authority. Heck, when Cheney claimed he wasn't part of the executive branch there was not so much as a peep out of the republics. Imagine the exploding heads if Bidden were to say that. Since Cheney set the precedent and was not corrected, Bidden very well could claim that distinction for himself now too.

                                As for Obama's bipartisanship, his historic visit to the repub caucus was a bipartisan gesture. What was and has been the republic response since day one? Pretty much shut down, slow down, dig in and block anything the president tries to do. It takes two to be bipartisan and the republics refuse to engage.

                                As for transparency, what has not been transparent?

                                Unconditional meeting with Iran is just that, he will meet them without making concessions prior to the meeting. He won't give them oil, or food or trade agreements....

                                Obama's first year went a heck of a lot better than Bush's, and Bush had ample warning that the bad guys were out to get us on our home turf.

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