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  • #31
    Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

    911 through Homeland Security, wrote the policy for FEMA to handle Katrina the way it did.

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    • #32
      Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

      My very last comment on this subject!

      What does it say about us, that we are argueing over what a great country we are and whether other countries have shown us the proper respect and monetary help during OUR disaster?

      Here we are in the midst of one of the greatest tragedies to hit the western hemisphere in our time. Thousands have died and hundreds, if not thousands, more will die without immediate help and here we are discussing how "Hitler" and "it it wasn't for us"!

      We ARE a great country, but we are not flawless and we are by no means the first country to put "boots on the ground" in this situation. Many of our citizens are there and they're working against overwhelming odds, demonstrating the utmost in bravery and skill. My focus is with them.

      End of subject!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

        Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
        My very last comment on this subject!

        What does it say about us, that we are argueing over what a great country we are and whether other countries have shown us the proper respect and monetary help during OUR disaster?

        Here we are in the midst of one of the greatest tragedies to hit the western hemisphere in our time. Thousands have died and hundreds, if not thousands, more will die without immediate help and here we are discussing how "Hitler" and "it it wasn't for us"!

        We ARE a great country, but we are not flawless and we are by no means the first country to put "boots on the ground" in this situation. Many of our citizens are there and they're working against overwhelming odds, demonstrating the utmost in bravery and skill. My focus is with them.

        End of subject!
        End?

        Maybe you're correct and there should be no recognition of history or things that would not have been achieved without this or that country.

        There should be no accountability from others either. The U.S. should just go blindly or offer funding into all natural disasters around the world. Regardless of what that country, it's leaders, or it's people might be doing or have done.

        I'm not arguing anything, just studying.

        J.C.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
          So what's your point? That the US created the Hitler problem?
          Yup. We have a rich history of blow backs.

          Osama Bin Laden, Sadam Hussien, the Sha of ****, Manuel Noriega.....

          "On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City that were being conducted by Prescott Bush, the father of former president George Herbert Walker Bush.

          Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. government took over the Union Banking Corporation, in which Prescott Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corporation stock shares, all of which were owned by E. Roland Harriman, Prescott Bush, three Nazi executives, and two other associates of Prescott Bush.

          President Franklin Roosevelt's Alien Property Custodian, Leo T. Crowley, signed Vesting Order Number 248 seizing the property of Prescott Bush under the Trading with the Enemy Act. The order, published in obscure government record books and kept out of the news, explained nothing about the Nazis involved; only that the Union Banking Corporation was run for the Thyssen family of Germany and/or Hungary, nationals of a designated enemy country.

          This act by the U.S. government made it clear that Prescott Bush and the other directors of the Union Banking Corp. were in essence front men for the Nazis. By keeping news of this seizure quiet, the American government avoided the more important issue: in what way were Hitler and his Nazi cohorts set up, armed, and supported by the New York and London cartel of which Prescott Bush was an executive manager?

          On Oct. 28, the government issued orders seizing two Nazi front organizations run by the Bush-Harriman bank: the Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation.

          Nazi interests in the Silesian-American Corporation, long managed by Prescott Bush and his father-in-law, George Herbert Walker, were seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act on November 17, 1942. In this action, the government announced that it was seizing only the Nazi interests, leaving the Nazis' U.S. partners to carry on the business.

          These were actions taken by the U.S. government during wartime, but Prescott Bush and his collaborators had already played a central role in financing and arming Adolf Hitler for his takeover of Germany. Harriman, Bush and the others in the cabal had financed the buildup of Nazi war industries for the conquest of Europe and war against the U.S.A. They had also helped in the development of Nazi genocide theories and racial propaganda, with the slave labor and extermination camps as the result."

          And some folks insist lying in a civil disposition is high crimes and treason.

          Oh yeah, just google Prescott Bush and the bonus army if you want to see a another example of Bush's anti-American streak. That story is even more disturbing. Just goes to show that any image can be rehabilitated.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

            I'm most definitely not a Bush fan, in fact in my view Bush 43 is a criminal - but for more recent history. HE's not alone BTW... In history, many others have used the world stage for personal gain.

            However, your information above is, IMO an example of a spin on history. Suffice it to say for now that the actions of any individual or corporation should not be grounds to vilify an entire nation. Moreover, your references regarding the actions of the United States Government tell one side of the story. I would bet that there is wide disagreement on the particular spin you're citing.

            I agree that we have a history of poor decisions... Bin Laden, Saddam, etc. Again it is not accurate to vilify the United States or blame the country as an entity.... you may not agree, but I believe that those (addmittedly poor) choices were not made with the knowledge or foresight of how those relationships would play out. It's far easier to look backward than forward.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
              End?

              Maybe you're correct and there should be no recognition of history or things that would not have been achieved without this or that country.

              There should be no accountability from others either. The U.S. should just go blindly or offer funding into all natural disasters around the world. Regardless of what that country, it's leaders, or it's people might be doing or have done.

              I'm not arguing anything, just studying.

              J.C.
              I'm with JC and will always disagree with ANYONE that says we shouldn't pay attention to history or the big picture. I do think we should help in Haiti, no matter what. But I also don't think we should ignore history or world politics in any way shape or form.

              There is a fundamental difference between going in to offer relief to people that are suffereing v. learning and examining the situation with respect to understanding the dynamics of world politics and our position relative to other countries. It doesn't say that we are somehow shameful... sorry but that makes little sense to me. It says we are a group of thinking people that are awake and analytical. I fail to see a problem there. Thoughtful discourse is always a good thing... discouraging it for any reason is never a good thing. If you don't see the importance of Hitler in the history of world politics as it plays to this thread - which is not about the "rightness" or "wrongness" of offering aid - then that is strictly your prerogative. But please don't make the discourse out to be shameful. It never is.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                when will. Bush be blamed for the mess in Haiti ?
                I can build anything You want , if you draw a picture of it , on the back of a big enough check .

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                  There's a bit of a spin here I think... I'm NOT saying we shouldn't be knowledgeable of history, discuss it, or anything else. But read the title of the thread... "Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake".

                  The discussion of world events and history is a favorite of mine as well as the why's and wherefores of WWII history and the reasons for our global presence in the world. Discussion under a proper subject headline would be great.

                  But as a reasoning for any action regarding this past week's tragedy in Haiti seems a bit distasteful in light of the death and destruction that exists there at this moment. One really has absolutely nothing to do with the other, in my opinion.

                  Apparently we differ on this point, but it certainly isn't because I think that discussion of history is wrong.. on the contrary, history is absolutely necessary, especially if you get it right or at least want to understand the truth of it.

                  CWS

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                    I think it is safe to call Prescott Bush a Nazi. He also thought the fascism that was taking place in Italy and Germany was a good idea. In 1933, Bush approached Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler and asked him to lead the 500,000 man Bonus army and overthrow FDR and the federal government. Smedley blew the whistle.

                    The rest is quite well documented in congressional hearings and Butlers own book.

                    Bush wanted to install a fascist regime as early as 1933, and nine years later was censured by the senate for his participation in war profiteering. Apples don't fall far from the tree.


                    Haiti for all it corrupt ways is still a nation of suffering people at this hour, through no fault of their own. As the leader of the world, it is our nations responsibility to set the tone and scale of the mission in Haiti.

                    Can anyone think of a time or place in world history where anyone has lived better than we do at this moment? As American's, we live better lives than virtually anyone that lived before us, anywhere. Royalty could only dream of the conveniences and luxuries we take for granted. Let's keep that in mind while Haitians are struggling just to get a cup of clean water.

                    We have a moral obligation to aid others in distress.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                      Originally posted by toolaholic View Post
                      when will. Bush be blamed for the mess in Haiti ?
                      St. George the Martyr

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                        Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                        I think it is safe to call Prescott Bush a Nazi. He also thought the fascism that was taking place in Italy and Germany was a good idea. In 1933, Bush approached Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler and asked him to lead the 500,000 man Bonus army and overthrow FDR and the federal government. Smedley blew the whistle.

                        The rest is quite well documented in congressional hearings and Butlers own book.

                        Bush wanted to install a fascist regime as early as 1933, and nine years later was censured by the senate for his participation in war profiteering. Apples don't fall far from the tree.


                        Haiti for all it corrupt ways is still a nation of suffering people at this hour, through no fault of their own. As the leader of the world, it is our nations responsibility to set the tone and scale of the mission in Haiti.

                        Can anyone think of a time or place in world history where anyone has lived better than we do at this moment? As American's, we live better lives than virtually anyone that lived before us, anywhere. Royalty could only dream of the conveniences and luxuries we take for granted. Let's keep that in mind while Haitians are struggling just to get a cup of clean water.

                        We have a moral obligation to aid others in distress.
                        You may be quite right. But so what if Prescott Bush was a faschist? Far too much of a leap for me to take that factoid and conclude from it that the US was responsible for Hitler, or even that Bush 41 or Bush 43 was a faschist. In particular I might select some other non-flattering descriptive verbiage to describe 43, but it would be based solely on his own actions. I don't see faschism or questionable patriotism as being genetically transmitted.

                        I fully agree that aid to Haiti is a good and moral thing. I disagree that our high standard of living has anything to do with the issue. As I see it, our standard of living is only relevent to the question of "how much".

                        BTW, I disagree that Americans are living the great life you suggest. It SHOULD be better than ever before . A hallmark of human beings compared to the other critters on this dirtball is our ability to build on and improve what went before. I don't think that's happening to the betterment of people's standard of living in the US right now. I, for one, don't equate having lots of gadgets and gizmos with quality of life (and this is coming from someone that designs gadgets and gizmos). I could get off on this for a few dozen kBytes or so but suffice it to say that with all the Prozac and alcohol being consumed in this country, there is a lot of fundamental unhappiness today. Cell phones and cordless drills (sorry, Ridgid) aren't going to address that, nor do they have particularly anything to say to college graduates working in retail as clerks for $10 an hour, general low levels of job satisfaction, or the significant upticks in indebtedness and bankruptcies in this country. As I see it, the standard of living is where it is by virtue of inertia.... but it's declining.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                          There's a bit of a spin here I think... I'm NOT saying we shouldn't be knowledgeable of history, discuss it, or anything else. But read the title of the thread... "Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake".

                          The discussion of world events and history is a favorite of mine as well as the why's and wherefores of WWII history and the reasons for our global presence in the world. Discussion under a proper subject headline would be great.

                          But as a reasoning for any action regarding this past week's tragedy in Haiti seems a bit distasteful in light of the death and destruction that exists there at this moment. One really has absolutely nothing to do with the other, in my opinion.

                          Apparently we differ on this point, but it certainly isn't because I think that discussion of history is wrong.. on the contrary, history is absolutely necessary, especially if you get it right or at least want to understand the truth of it.

                          CWS
                          CWS, you and I don't differ at all on the need for humanitarian aid. The comments on WWII and so forth are absolutely not justification for providing aid or not providing aid. The US, in my view, should be and is responding and I am proud of that.

                          As I read the opening post of the thread, the discussion is about political respect and reciprocity (or lack of both) on the world stage. I didn't see where it was suggested that providing or not providing aid should be based on who helped us with Katrina... it was a question about respect and reciprocity in the context of governments.

                          I fully agree with you that the issue has nothing to do with whether we should be providing aid.... and never suggested otherwise. I disagree that the discussion is in poor taste. Even if someone was of that opinion, it wouldn't be distasteful, it's a legitimate discussion. One person might think that a war is immoral due to humanitarian concerns and another might think it's fully justified based on a political point of view. Would such a discourse be distasteful? I just don't see the problem. Nothing we discuss here is holding up the relief effort to Haiti.
                          Last edited by Andy_M; 01-17-2010, 11:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                            Thanks, but it sounds like so far that the answer is zero. Not one country has brought men or women here to help the U.S. in a time of crisis while the U.S. sends people many places in bad times. Meanwhile I hear other countries bad mouthing the U.S.

                            Right? Wrong?

                            J.C.
                            Do you seriously think we would let another country send troops or an aircraft carrier or even take a hospital ship?

                            Thankfully, the US has the most resources in the world, at least for now. Even without an earthquake, the average Haitian is going to have more problems than the average Louisianan in a hurricane with a weeks warning.

                            I think America is a force for good, and other countires not recognizing what we've done for the world can be annoying; but it isn't entirely as a disinterested observer that we were promoting democracy and friendly dictators for the last 65 years.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                              The earthquake is the best long term thing that has ever happened to Haiti. A wipe the slate clean so to speak and that slate needs a lot of wiping. Haiti gets buku amounts of foreign money but the government is so corrupt and the people so entranced in a slave like menality that the country is broken as a whole. This earthquake will allow for a new economy and put a spotlight on the government hopefully causing them to do better.
                              Buy cheap, buy twice.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Katrina New Orleans vs. Haiti Earthquake

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                Thanks, but it sounds like so far that the answer is zero. Not one country has brought men or women here to help the U.S. in a time of crisis while the U.S. sends people many places in bad times. Meanwhile I hear other countries bad mouthing the U.S.

                                Right? Wrong?

                                J.C.
                                Uh, wrong. Canada.

                                Comment

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