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Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

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  • #16
    Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

    Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
    A majority of a population and a country can only be ran on borrowed funds and low GDP for so long. The U.S. has made an incredible run at it.

    J.C.
    People treating their home as an ATM definitely was a major part of what kept our economy going for a number of years.

    It was a house of cards all along.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

      I want Twinkies !

      for some stupid reason

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

        Call it a house of cards. or smoke and mirrors economics, either way it's looking bad. Our government has been overspending for years, iraq and afghan wars are close to a trillion. Businesses have been exiting the USA for years and consumer debt mounting. When does the bill come due?

        I still can't believe the title of this Thread! Once credit cards got into the hands of the masses, it was game over. Nothing more than legal loansharking.

        Can we say our government has acted with any more restraint and fiscal responsibility than the aveage consumer? When did borrowing money from any country, much less communist china become a good idea? Why was there no plan to cut spending before running up a deficit?

        Can anyone seriously say there is a positive way to turn this around and avoid an economic and social disaster?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          Call it a house of cards. or smoke and mirrors economics, either way it's looking bad. Our government has been overspending for years, iraq and afghan wars are close to a trillion. Businesses have been exiting the USA for years and consumer debt mounting. When does the bill come due?

          I still can't believe the title of this Thread! Once credit cards got into the hands of the masses, it was game over. Nothing more than legal loansharking.

          Can we say our government has acted with any more restraint and fiscal responsibility than the aveage consumer? When did borrowing money from any country, much less communist china become a good idea? Why was there no plan to cut spending before running up a deficit?

          Can anyone seriously say there is a positive way to turn this around and
          avoid an economic and social disaster?
          Frank are you telling me times are tuff in the US they carn`t be our media tells us unemplyment has dropped by 20,000 and your economy is on the mend and you only have 10% unemployment now let me see 300,000,000 mulitply by 10% = 30,000,000 unemployment no that carn`t be right.
          Who we should be worring about are the media and the economic experts who keep on talking up the market to line thier our pockets as the market falls.
          Greece Spain and Portugal are on the brink of insolvency and once the government hands out stop in both our countries then batten down the hatches.

          Tony

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

            If the you know what hits the fan, I plan on being the guy everybody else is trying to protect themselves from.

            Yo ho Yo ho a pirate's life for me
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

              Originally posted by AFM View Post
              Frank are you telling me times are tuff in the US they carn`t be our media tells us unemplyment has dropped by 20,000 and your economy is on the mend and you only have 10% unemployment now let me see 300,000,000 mulitply by 10% = 30,000,000 unemployment no that carn`t be right.
              Who we should be worring about are the media and the economic experts who keep on talking up the market to line thier our pockets as the market falls.
              Greece Spain and Portugal are on the brink of insolvency and once the government hands out stop in both our countries then batten down the hatches.

              Tony
              Tony, my country is not battening down anything. Still spending billions on wars they can't pay for, still paying out unemployment and other assistance from state governments that are deep in debt. Folks still buying up big screen tvs and running up the magic credit card.
              In my opinion, the stock market is no indication of anything but investor behavior either local or foreign.
              Today most Americans will be enjoying Super Distraction Sunday, not a care in the world. I guess if you don't pay attention to a problem, it's not a problem?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                The monied interests are running the show. The Teabaggers are right about this, even though it is this very class that is responsible for fronting the money to start the Teabagger movement.

                But the outrage that has been given volume in the past year is revealing. Today's critics were strangely quiet on the subject of government spending until thirteen months ago. It is obvious that the voices and institutions driving this narrative chose to ignore the wreckless and irresponsible way in which our government handled money.

                The situation is indeed dire at this juncture. But we are experiencing the natural and predictable conclusion to many years of careless and irresponsible practices. There is no shortcut to climbing out of a hole that took years to dig.

                If a person is employed and has a generous income, would they borrow a large sum of money to pay their bills and mortgage? They shouldn't be that's for sure. Many folks need to get back to the fundamental principle of living within their means.

                If a person is unemployed they are not only very likely to borrow money, but often times that is their only option. They will put groceries, utilities and whatever else they can put on a credit card. It may not be prudent, but there are few if any reasonable alternatives. Sure, you cut things, tighten the belt and live frugal, but try to support a household on unemployment. There is too much month left at the end of the check.

                The federal government is essentially a person on unemployment. It needs to borrow huge sums of money for the relative short term. Meanwhile it does need to cut spending, live frugally.

                Good luck cutting anything. Heck, the minority won't even agree to PayGo. Now we've got a politician throwing a wrench in the works because he wants billions of dollars to go to a foreign owned defense contractor in his state.

                You just can't make this stuff up. There is plenty of blame to go around. But it is a curious brand of optimism to continue to do the same thing over and over yet expect a different result. Going back to the practices and policies that created this situation in the first place not only defies logic, but is dangerous.

                Obviously we have been trending towards not being self-sustaining for a generation or two. It's a problem in the making for years, and the cure will take years.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                  Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                  The monied interests are running the show. The Teabaggers are right about this, even though it is this very class that is responsible for fronting the money to start the Teabagger movement.

                  But the outrage that has been given volume in the past year is revealing. Today's critics were strangely quiet on the subject of government spending until thirteen months ago. It is obvious that the voices and institutions driving this narrative chose to ignore the wreckless and irresponsible way in which our government handled money.

                  The situation is indeed dire at this juncture. But we are experiencing the natural and predictable conclusion to many years of careless and irresponsible practices. There is no shortcut to climbing out of a hole that took years to dig.

                  If a person is employed and has a generous income, would they borrow a large sum of money to pay their bills and mortgage? They shouldn't be that's for sure. Many folks need to get back to the fundamental principle of living within their means.

                  If a person is unemployed they are not only very likely to borrow money, but often times that is their only option. They will put groceries, utilities and whatever else they can put on a credit card. It may not be prudent, but there are few if any reasonable alternatives. Sure, you cut things, tighten the belt and live frugal, but try to support a household on unemployment. There is too much month left at the end of the check.

                  The federal government is essentially a person on unemployment. It needs to borrow huge sums of money for the relative short term. Meanwhile it does need to cut spending, live frugally.

                  Good luck cutting anything. Heck, the minority won't even agree to PayGo. Now we've got a politician throwing a wrench in the works because he wants billions of dollars to go to a foreign owned defense contractor in his state.

                  You just can't make this stuff up. There is plenty of blame to go around. But it is a curious brand of optimism to continue to do the same thing over and over yet expect a different result. Going back to the practices and policies that created this situation in the first place not only defies logic, but is dangerous.

                  Obviously we have been trending towards not being self-sustaining for a generation or two. It's a problem in the making for years, and the cure will take years.
                  Great post. Unfortunately, I don't believe our legislators are open for a "cure". I think they live in a business as usual world and unless something drastic happens to shake them out of it, the situation will continue to decline.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                    Today most Americans will be enjoying Super Distraction Sunday, not a care in the world. I guess if you don't pay attention to a problem, it's not a problem?[/QUOTE]

                    We all need bread and circus Frank its what makes the world go round and what you call football does the trick I bought a nice 50" plasma a couple of years ago and love it, its not the people that have stuffed up our economies its our governments that did`t keep their eye on the ball and who cut out all the checks and balances that were put into place in the 1930`s by people who knew they couldn`t trust the banks and allowed wall street and the banks to do whatever they liked and are still doing it I haven`t seen any of them loosing they bonuses or jobs and whatever we say on this forum or wherever will make no difference they will continue on ripping us off that capitalism.

                    Tony

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                      Originally posted by AFM View Post
                      Today most Americans will be enjoying Super Distraction Sunday, not a care in the world. I guess if you don't pay attention to a problem, it's not a problem?
                      We all need bread and circus Frank its what makes the world go round and what you call football does the trick I bought a nice 50" plasma a couple of years ago and love it, its not the people that have stuffed up our economies its our governments that did`t keep their eye on the ball and who cut out all the checks and balances that were put into place in the 1930`s by people who knew they couldn`t trust the banks and allowed wall street and the banks to do whatever they liked and are still doing it I haven`t seen any of them loosing they bonuses or jobs and whatever we say on this forum or wherever will make no difference they will continue on ripping us off that capitalism.

                      Tony[/QUOTE]

                      Tony, I place equal blame on the gov't and people. Apathy and tunnel vision are not the attributes that keep gov't honest and efficient. All of a sudden folks are appalled by the sweetheart deals taking place, where was there concern the last forty years?
                      Banks and lending institutions gave out mortgages they should not have, but the receipients were not guiltless innocents.
                      The perfect storm that is taking our economy down, is complicated with missed opportunitities for folks involved to do the right thing. Will the gov't step up and spend within it's deficit budget? Will the banks and wallstreet behave honestly and responsibly? Will folks stop spending beyond their means? What about the states that are failing?
                      Tony, I know I must sound terribly negative, but can any sane rational person see a way out, a turnaround?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        We all need bread and circus Frank its what makes the world go round and what you call football does the trick I bought a nice 50" plasma a couple of years ago and love it, its not the people that have stuffed up our economies its our governments that did`t keep their eye on the ball and who cut out all the checks and balances that were put into place in the 1930`s by people who knew they couldn`t trust the banks and allowed wall street and the banks to do whatever they liked and are still doing it I haven`t seen any of them loosing they bonuses or jobs and whatever we say on this forum or wherever will make no difference they will continue on ripping us off that capitalism.

                        Tony
                        Tony, I place equal blame on the gov't and people. Apathy and tunnel vision are not the attributes that keep gov't honest and efficient. All of a sudden folks are appalled by the sweetheart deals taking place, where was there concern the last forty years?
                        Banks and lending institutions gave out mortgages they should not have, but the receipients were not guiltless innocents.
                        The perfect storm that is taking our economy down, is complicated with missed opportunitities for folks involved to do the right thing. Will the gov't step up and spend within it's deficit budget? Will the banks and wallstreet behave honestly and responsibly? Will folks stop spending beyond their means? What about the states that are failing?
                        Tony, I know I must sound terribly negative, but can any sane rational person see a way out, a turnaround? [/QUOTE]

                        There is only one way out we have to go through a depression we have to have and stop the juggling that`s what has been happening since all this began and being negative is normal only a fool wouldn`t and the media and governments are fools for takeing us for idiots.

                        Tony

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                          Originally posted by AFM View Post
                          Banks and lending institutions gave out mortgages they should not have, but the receipients were not guiltless innocents.
                          I think the perception that the mortgage borrowers were scamming the system is not entirely accurate. I watched an episode of NOW (PBS journalism show) that aired long, long, before the mortgage crash. The real estate agent they interviewed and followed was all but bragging about up selling home buyers. He was extremely optimistic that housing prices were going to keep going up

                          It was like watching a car salesman at work. I know that buying a house is different than buying a car, but then again we've seen the power of salesmanship in the Dot Com era too.

                          To say these millions of households went into the mortgage with the same fraudulent intentions as the lending institutions only serves to relieve Wall Street of ever more responsibility.

                          It was a stroke of brilliance to dilute the argument by claiming borrowers were equally or more responsible than the lenders. It isn't even close.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            I think the perception that the mortgage borrowers were scamming the system is not entirely accurate. I watched an episode of NOW (PBS journalism show) that aired long, long, before the mortgage crash. The real estate agent they interviewed and followed was all but bragging about up selling home buyers. He was extremely optimistic that housing prices were going to keep going up

                            It was like watching a car salesman at work. I know that buying a house is different than buying a car, but then again we've seen the power of salesmanship in the Dot Com era too.

                            To say these millions of households went into the mortgage with the same fraudulent intentions as the lending institutions only serves to relieve Wall Street of ever more responsibility.

                            It was a stroke of brilliance to dilute the argument by claiming borrowers were equally or more responsible than the lenders. It isn't even close.
                            We disagree, but that's okay I just want to explain my reasoning a little further. When I bought my first home twenty six years ago I put down 30%, five years later, I sold that house and put down just over 50% on my current home. I insisted on a fixed rate. The folks who bought homes and put nothing or 5% down and took adjustable rate mortgages must bare some responsibility for their situation. Life involves a lot of calculated risks in order to get by or get ahead, but there was an awful lot of wishful thinking with those adjustable mortgages. The lending institutions that verified honest claims by the lenders, still took part in very risky business, in my opinion. When the numbers are that tight, the situation can quickly go from barely making it, to defaulting.
                            All it took for folks to fall behind was for one or more of the income earners to either have hours cut or get layed off, a divorce, death or illness, and it was game over. I'm not even going as far as the interest rate climbing, which in many cases was the cause of the default.
                            I believe as adults we must be held responsible for our actions, we should look at the man/woman in the mirror and guage our financial behavior.
                            The temptaion to buy a new car or big ticket electronic item such as a 50inch plasma TV is great, but our free will and adult thinking should win out.
                            I'm guitly of getting into credit card debt several times over the years. The way out for my wife and I was to refinance and keep adding years to our mortgage. The folks who bought into those bad mortgage terms and were either honest of untruthful about their finances going in, must have known the risks. The lending institutions certainly knew the risks, but we all know who paid for their downside.
                            The American dream of owning your own house, must change to meet the present. I believe the new American dream should be to have a economy that works, a government that spends responsibly and represents the people.
                            The homeowners that are unemployed and now homeless, understand a more precious dream is to feel secure, safe to have a roof over your head and a full belly.
                            I am afraid our expectations of life are about to drastically change in the comming years. Our government will get a wake up call when it can't tax folks who don't earn, and can't borrow from other gov'ts that won't lend.
                            The banks and lending institutions will also wallow in the mess they helped create, along with the big businesses that profitted from the American consumer and gave back nothing. I still think without us, the so called fertile markets of china and india are a long way off in taking our place.
                            I wish them all luck in their game of finances and politics, but my hopes and dreams are that America survives. These are just my opinions and thoughts, I don't expect to change anyones mind.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                              I think the current thinking is some what like the Bud light: stranded, commercial they would rather party than be rescued,

                              http://msn.foxsports.com/video/shows...s_SuperBowlAds
                              Last edited by BHD; 02-08-2010, 12:55 PM.
                              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                              attributed to Samuel Johnson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Self-Sustaining Growth "No Longer Exists"

                                Originally posted by BHD View Post
                                I think the current thinking is some what like the Bud light: stranded, commercial they would rather party than be rescued,

                                http://msn.foxsports.com/video/shows...s_SuperBowlAds
                                Yeah, that about sums it up.

                                Comment

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