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  • #46
    Re: Extreme Measures

    Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
    But I do like the fact that the Tea Party support is coming from the grassroots
    I suggest you look into who has been funding the Tea Party. If the Tea Party is considered grass roots, then somebody changed the definition of grass roots when I wasn't looking.

    We aren't going to see a legitimate third party any time soon. Now that corporations will be able to spend unlimited sums of cash either advocating for a candidate or against a candidate, it will take impossibly deep pockets to run a campaign if one isn't seeing to the vested interests of the wealthy corporations.

    You think Anthem Blue Cross won't spend money, or threaten to spend money if a congress person is for health care reform? With a little over $4 billion in net profits last year, they've got plenty of cash to change the dynamics if they so choose. They may stay out of the fray, but the choice is entirely theirs. No one can stop them if they so choose to participate.

    One thing for sure, you can bet that if they feel their best interests are being threatened, they will be very able to get the attention of congress now.

    As for FOX News, the ones that watch it regularly seem to enjoy it. I've tried to watch it, but it is so blatantly partisan that I can not consider it a valid news source. They've been caught too many times lying, using RNC talking points and mislabeling segments. Sorry, but if CNN, ABC, CBS or NBC did anything like FOX does regularly, we'd hear about it from FOX.

    Sorry, but just because they put the word 'news' in their title, it doesn't make them a news outlet. But you may continue to consider yourself well informed if that makes you happy.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Extreme Measures

      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
      I suggest you look into who has been funding the Tea Party. If the Tea Party is considered grass roots, then somebody changed the definition of grass roots when I wasn't looking.

      We aren't going to see a legitimate third party any time soon. Now that corporations will be able to spend unlimited sums of cash either advocating for a candidate or against a candidate, it will take impossibly deep pockets to run a campaign if one isn't seeing to the vested interests of the wealthy corporations.

      You think Anthem Blue Cross won't spend money, or threaten to spend money if a congress person is for health care reform? With a little over $4 billion in net profits last year, they've got plenty of cash to change the dynamics if they so choose. They may stay out of the fray, but the choice is entirely theirs. No one can stop them if they so choose to participate.

      One thing for sure, you can bet that if they feel their best interests are being threatened, they will be very able to get the attention of congress now.

      As for FOX News, the ones that watch it regularly seem to enjoy it. I've tried to watch it, but it is so blatantly partisan that I can not consider it a valid news source. They've been caught too many times lying, using RNC talking points and mislabeling segments. Sorry, but if CNN, ABC, CBS or NBC did anything like FOX does regularly, we'd hear about it from FOX.

      Sorry, but just because they put the word 'news' in their title, it doesn't make them a news outlet. But you may continue to consider yourself well informed if that makes you happy.
      I wasn't referring to financial support. Yes, the tea party movement funding picture is disturbing. But the actual popularity of the movement is due to grassroots support. It's the mad-as-hell-and-not-going-to-take-this-anymore crowd. You can deny this if you want but there are a lot of people out there that are at the end of their ropes. Many bet on Obama because they were let down by the right wing Bush group, and McCain just wasn't different enough. So now Obama has proven in many people's minds that he's more or less a smooth talking suit, so that's two strikes for the conventional parties. Now the tea people are looking to promote real change as opposed to wasting the next at-bat on the same ineffective bumbling of the past 35 years.

      Anthem is an insurance company. As far as I'm concerned, insurance is just another financial industry player like the banks - they've been milking this country dry for the sake of their bottom line ever since deregulation. Anthems's possible billion dollar war chest is nothing compared to that of the world's financial industry (not just US). Yes, I fully believe that the money people are driving the boat. Which is why Bush never acted in your interest, Obama isn't acting in your interest, and no administration for the past 30 years has acted in your interest. The SCOTUS isn't even acting in your best interest... I read that ruling and it just doesn't make sense to me at any level.

      Which only goes to the need for a radical change from business as usual. I would say that the American people have been patient for the past 30-40 years. That patience has garnered gotten stifling taxes, no coherent energy policy, out of control spending, loss of industry, entitlements gone berserk, declining quality of primary and secondary education, of course the vaunted "would-you-like-fries-with -that" service economy, etc. Not to mention that our position in the world is on the verge of being eclipsed by what amounts to an uneducated, marginally skilled third world country, who figured out that the best weapons were made of injection molded plastic not plutonium and the best delivery system was WalMart, not an ICBM. But the money people think it's all fine because they get a little off the top.

      So you don't like the tea party, you don't like the right wingers... and you distance yourself from Obama as not representing the liberals? Should we just sit tight and elect another demo in the hope that his change-speak will be less speak and more change than Barack's? Well ok... you can and should use your vote however you see fit. But I won't be doing that.

      And will turning off Fox news help? I don't watch those numbskulls anyway. But the other networks aren't unbiased, they're just not as overt. They bow to money just like the politicos do, and they try to influence pubilc opinion just like Fox does. Different style, that's all. They'v been practicing for longer than Fox.

      Both parties have had ample chance. Neither has materially better results than the other. I just don't see that I can support business as usual in DC any longer.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Extreme Measures

        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
        I wasn't referring to financial support. Yes, the tea party movement funding picture is disturbing. But the actual popularity of the movement is due to grassroots support. It's the mad-as-hell-and-not-going-to-take-this-anymore crowd. You can deny this if you want but there are a lot of people out there that are at the end of their ropes. Many bet on Obama because they were let down by the right wing Bush group, and McCain just wasn't different enough. So now Obama has proven in many people's minds that he's more or less a smooth talking suit, so that's two strikes for the conventional parties. Now the tea people are looking to promote real change as opposed to wasting the next at-bat on the same ineffective bumbling of the past 35 years.

        Anthem is an insurance company. As far as I'm concerned, insurance is just another financial industry player like the banks - they've been milking this country dry for the sake of their bottom line ever since deregulation. Anthems's possible billion dollar war chest is nothing compared to that of the world's financial industry (not just US). Yes, I fully believe that the money people are driving the boat. Which is why Bush never acted in your interest, Obama isn't acting in your interest, and no administration for the past 30 years has acted in your interest. The SCOTUS isn't even acting in your best interest... I read that ruling and it just doesn't make sense to me at any level.

        Which only goes to the need for a radical change from business as usual. I would say that the American people have been patient for the past 30-40 years. That patience has garnered gotten stifling taxes, no coherent energy policy, out of control spending, loss of industry, entitlements gone berserk, declining quality of primary and secondary education, of course the vaunted "would-you-like-fries-with -that" service economy, etc. Not to mention that our position in the world is on the verge of being eclipsed by what amounts to an uneducated, marginally skilled third world country, who figured out that the best weapons were made of injection molded plastic not plutonium and the best delivery system was WalMart, not an ICBM. But the money people think it's all fine because they get a little off the top.

        So you don't like the tea party, you don't like the right wingers... and you distance yourself from Obama as not representing the liberals? Should we just sit tight and elect another demo in the hope that his change-speak will be less speak and more change than Barack's? Well ok... you can and should use your vote however you see fit. But I won't be doing that.

        And will turning off Fox news help? I don't watch those numbskulls anyway. But the other networks aren't unbiased, they're just not as overt. They bow to money just like the politicos do, and they try to influence pubilc opinion just like Fox does. Different style, that's all. They'v been practicing for longer than Fox.

        Both parties have had ample chance. Neither has materially better results than the other. I just don't see that I can support business as usual in DC any longer.
        Andy, you've stated your opinons very well and I can only hope I have done the same. We are obviously not going to change minds that are made up. I do think we have a more open view of the whole media bias issue, and more importantly we understand how inconsequential that is to the serious situations facing our great country. Many years of bad government by both parties, along with the voting public's apathy has lead to frightening results.

        I don't know if we can survive three more years of business as usual, or if President Obama has some yet unrevealed plan to correct all these problems. I know I don't like where we were with republicans in power and I don't like where we are now. Nothing I say here on this Forum will change anything, but I appreciate the opportunity to exchange ideas and vent a bit.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Extreme Measures

          About a year ago, I got a call from the Republicans, and the phone call was begging for money, and in the process touting there "Republican" values.

          I asked the caller what are the Republican Values? they did not have any answer or did not want to answer.

          and my guess is the Democrats are in the same boat, the ones that are leading the party's or making the policy decisions have lost there core roots, and are trying to be some thing that the BULK of the people who take the label are not,

          the problem with the Tea party is that besides being against taxes and spending, is there enough same goals to form a party, my guess there is not as of yet, (at least to form a party that would not be torn apart by the fringes, on both sides),

          the Republicans have been so interested in promoting "Rino's" of late, (Republican in name only) that I really do not know what they stand for,
          and I really doubt if "O" and Reid and Pelosi truly represent the rank and file of the Dem's.

          I think that for both of the parties they need to figure out who and what they are,

          the problem is Washington works Via party rule, not Individuals working for the people do what is right for the country, but what is best for the party,or them selfs.

          and do to that I think a third or forth party would have little chance of making in rodes in the established system, now if there were 4 to 6 parties that were more or less equal in power the system would be different, even the News systems will not even let a third party candidate debate with the two party system on the news or in a pre election debate,

          all the smaller sub party's to function have to blend into one of the major parties and blend in until they get some office, and thus they end up making there labeled parties hated the other segments in it.

          I think that there are some GOOD congress men and representatives on both sides, but do to the structure and the workings of Washington, I think ever last one of them need to be voted out and replaced in hopes of breaking the good Ole boy's systems that have been build up over the years, In hopes of getting a team of leaders that have America first,

          (in simple I think both Parties have lost there core values and Identities and purpose)
          Last edited by BHD; 02-22-2010, 09:25 AM.
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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          attributed to Samuel Johnson
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          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Extreme Measures

            Originally posted by BHD View Post
            About a year ago, I got a call from the Republicans, and the phone call was begging for money, and in the process touting there "Republican" values.

            I asked the caller what are the Republican Values? they did not have any answer or did not want to answer.

            and my guess is the Democrats are in the same boat, the ones that are leading the party's or making the policy decisions have lost there core roots, and are trying to be some thing that the BULK of the people who take the label are not,

            the problem with the Tea party is that besides being against taxes and spending, is there enough same goals to form a party, my guess there is not as of yet, (at least to form a party that would not be torn apart by the fringes, on both sides),

            the Republicans have been so interested in promoting "Rino's" of late, (Republican in name only) that I really do not know what they stand for,
            and I really doubt if "O" and Reid and Pelosi truly represent the rank and file of the Dem's.

            I think that for both of the parties they need to figure out who and what they are,

            the problem is Washington works Via party rule, not Individuals working for the people do what is right for the country, but what is best for the party,or them selfs.

            and do to that I think a third or forth party would have little chance of making in rodes in the established system, now if there were 4 to 6 parties that were more or less equal in power the system would be different, even the News systems will not even let a third party candidate debate with the two party system on the news or in a pre election debate,

            all the smaller sub party's to function have to blend into one of the major parties and blend in until they get some office, and thus they end up making there labeled parties hated the other segments in it.

            I think that there are some GOOD congress men and representatives on both sides, but do to the structure and the workings of Washington, I think ever last one of them need to be voted out and replaced in hopes of breaking the good Ole boy's systems that have been build up over the years, In hopes of getting a team of leaders that have America first,

            (in simple I think both Parties have lost there core values and Identities and purpose)
            Good post and I happen to think you are right all the way, unfortunately I don't think the country has time for a third party. I don't think we have time for the republicans or democrats to get themselves behind some serious emergency strategy. We are in a bad way with the expense of the wars, lack of employment, consumer dependence on imports and government dependence on communist china for loans.

            Do we have three years to spare until we vote in the other party and have them do nothing as well? I know plenty of folks think everything will be fine and the economy is slowly improving, personally I can't see how that is happening or can happen. Right now if the government cut taxes on small business to zero and gave them free health care, it still would not be enough to make up for the spending on the wars, other government programs and debt. EMploying a few thousand Americans to build a nuclear reactor, or some other tax payer funded venture will not offset the half a million jobs lost every week! We need "Extreme Measures", and no one in washington is will to step up.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Extreme Measures

              The difference between a republican and a democrat is that a democrat will allow the poor to be corrupt too.

              The Tea Party is about no government, not less. Which means they are in favor of anarchy.

              I am an independent. I see the dems as the best chance of possible chances. However the republicans have made the calculated move that denying Obama and the democrats any success is their ticket back to power. Meanwhile Americans are denied a congress that can e effective.

              The republicans don't like being treated like the minority they are. It is clear that they will stop anything and everything that makes the other party look bad no matter how damaging it is to the country. And they'll be able to tell the country this fall how ineffective the dems are, and they'll say it with a straight face.

              We got credit card reform, rolling out today, we got the Lilly Leadbetter act are two major reforms that benefit all Americans. There are plenty more, but the media has done a terrific job of driving the narrative.
              Last edited by SpiffPeters; 02-22-2010, 01:23 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Extreme Measures

                Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                The difference between a republican and a democrat is that a democrat will allow the be corrupt too.

                The Tea Party is about no government, not less. Which means they are in favor of anarchy.

                I am an independent. I see the dems as the best chance of possible chances. However the republicans have made the calculated move that denying Obama and the democrats any success is their ticket back to power. Meanwhile Americans are denied a congress that can e effective.

                The republicans don't like being treated like the minority they are. It is clear that they will stop anything and everything that makes the other party look bad no matter how damaging it is to the country. And they'll be able to tell the country this fall how ineffective the dems are, and they'll say it with a straight face.

                We got credit card reform, rolling out today, we got the Lilly Leadbetter act are two major reforms that benefit all Americans. There are plenty more, but the media has done a terrific job of driving the narrative.
                Unfortunately, we also still have war or should I say wars, a trillion dollar trade deficit, rising unemployment, unresolved illegal immigrant issues, rising debt to communist china, and if anyone complains they are deemed to be part of the teabag trouble makers! If the democratic party is our "best" hope I would say our future is hopeless! I have been writing to the democratic congressman I help elect, and pleading my concerns without anything but a form letter response. Today I received an e-mail having to do with the credit card reform, I requested to be taken off his mailing list.

                Credit card reform is a great idea, but it is next to nothing compared with the serious issues that are getting no attention and results. Let me know when the wars we can't pay for are ended and we have reduced unemployment without having taxpayers foot the bill!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Extreme Measures

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  Let me know when the wars we can't pay for are ended and we have reduced unemployment without having taxpayers foot the bill!
                  A few years ago a comment like that would have branded you as unpatriotic. Lets not forget who passed a two trillion dollar tax cut for folks that didn't need a tax cut, and then didn't bother to cut any services. Those tax cuts were suppose to create jobs. Seems pretty obvious that those that received their tax cut didn't bother to reinvest in the country.

                  We can go back to the policies that created this financial quagmire, which the republicans want to do, or try things that may very well work.

                  Cutting taxes sounds great until you start telling folks what services they're going to lose. I'm pretty sure the professional congress persons value their job more than their country.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Extreme Measures

                    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                    A few years ago a comment like that would have branded you as unpatriotic. Lets not forget who passed a two trillion dollar tax cut for folks that didn't need a tax cut, and then didn't bother to cut any services. Those tax cuts were suppose to create jobs. Seems pretty obvious that those that received their tax cut didn't bother to reinvest in the country.

                    We can go back to the policies that created this financial quagmire, which the republicans want to do, or try things that may very well work.

                    Cutting taxes sounds great until you start telling folks what services they're going to lose. I'm pretty sure the professional congress persons value their job more than their country.
                    My comments will get me branded by the dems nowadays. Where the heck is freedom of speech and the right to dissent? I'm not suggesting cutting taxes, I'm saying government make work programs that I have to pay for will not resolve unemployment. We need people to work at jobs independant of government involvement. That's my opinion. I hope I'm wrong about the current administration accomplishing nothing on those many serious issues, but as of right now I'm not! Time wasted on a bad plan for healthcare reform and credit card rules is mind boggling in the face of our worsening economy.
                    Am I wrong about the need to address unemployment, trade deficit, dependence on communist china for our consumer goods and loans to keep America running, the unresolved illegal immigrant situation, etc.???

                    The Bush tax cuts did not fix anything aside from making the wealthy a little wealthier. Folks who brag about capitalism and free trade should stop and look at what those bastions of our great country have lead to.

                    The manufacturing is gone, so too are the jobs and tax revenue. How can you say with a straight face and conviction that the dems are doing a good job?
                    Good luck with your credit card reform, I hope it sustains you during the next great depression.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Extreme Measures

                      And yet, if it is not attractive and profitable for business to thrive in this country, they will move their business elsewhere.

                      It has taken over 200 years to grow this government Juggernaut to the size that it currently is. What started out as a a government for the people and by the people has become a government for the special interests and for the government. Currently the US government is the largest employer in the world and all those bureaucrats depend on your tax dollars for their paycheck. The government controls every aspect of our lives and if left up to the current regime, they would take the small chunk of personal freedom we have left. The people have made it pretty clear that at this time we do not want national health care and yet Mr. Obama does not seem to understand the message, so he will once again try to ram this through. Meanwhile unemployment is rising. The next round of bank foreclosures are slated to begin. The only thing slowing the tide of illegal aliens across our border is that our economy is so bad they are better off at home. And to top it all off John McCain just can't seem to shut his mouth and just go away. This country needs not liberals, or progressives nor right wing idealogs. What we need is people with common sense and the cajo'nes to do what needs to be done. Stop playing games with our childrens future.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Extreme Measures

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        Am I wrong about the need to address unemployment, trade deficit, dependence on communist china for our consumer goods and loans to keep America running, the unresolved illegal immigrant situation, etc.???
                        No, you're not. With the possible exception of illegal immigration, which is a problem but IMO doesn't belong on the same page as the other things you cited.

                        Lilly Ledbetter was a nice table scrap. It doesn't have much to do with the major problems that we face today. If unemployment keeps rising, equitable pay isn't going to matter. As for credit card reform, that's another joke. The credit card companies have already jacked up interest rates, increased fees and are about to roll out a whole armload of new fees to recoup what ever they lose due to reform.

                        I disagree that the tea party is about no government, unless you believe that "government" is defined as "government programs". I am not a total tea supporter and I think at this point that fiscal restraint isn't going to solve the problems we face. In fact we need to spend, unfortunately, on true energy independence, and some other areas as well. But Obama-esque stimulus that doesn't create sustainable jobs growth or revitalize industry hasn't helped, won't help and can't help. A good portion of the money that the Feds passed to the States was used to keep state employees. You can get a pink slip but they can't.

                        I think Frank has it right. Credit card reform and ineffective stimulus packages aren't going to fix the problem. Neither are senseless wars.

                        Interesting thread in that it points out that we have a bit of a problem agreeing on what to do or even how urgent the matter is.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Extreme Measures

                          I may be oversimplifying matters, but I think that if the leaders of this country had adhered to the Constitution, which they swore to uphold, we would not be in the mess that we find ourselves now. If it were only possible to get rid of all politicians and elect statesmen who are interested in the welfare of the country instead of their own special interests. Term limits would be a start.
                          When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Extreme Measures

                            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                            No, you're not. With the possible exception of illegal immigration, which is a problem but IMO doesn't belong on the same page as the other things you cited.

                            Lilly Ledbetter was a nice table scrap. It doesn't have much to do with the major problems that we face today. If unemployment keeps rising, equitable pay isn't going to matter. As for credit card reform, that's another joke. The credit card companies have already jacked up interest rates, increased fees and are about to roll out a whole armload of new fees to recoup what ever they lose due to reform.

                            I disagree that the tea party is about no government, unless you believe that "government" is defined as "government programs". I am not a total tea supporter and I think at this point that fiscal restraint isn't going to solve the problems we face. In fact we need to spend, unfortunately, on true energy independence, and some other areas as well. But Obama-esque stimulus that doesn't create sustainable jobs growth or revitalize industry hasn't helped, won't help and can't help. A good portion of the money that the Feds passed to the States was used to keep state employees. You can get a pink slip but they can't.

                            I think Frank has it right. Credit card reform and ineffective stimulus packages aren't going to fix the problem. Neither are senseless wars.

                            Interesting thread in that it points out that we have a bit of a problem agreeing on what to do or even how urgent the matter is.
                            If my line of reasoning about most of this is right, it doesn't make me feel very good. I keep hoping to learn more and be proven completely wrong, because the alterantive is serious, and depressing. I'm sort of in limbo, not knowing if I should somehow prepare for impending doom. Will things really get bad, or am I totally overreacting and reading too much into it all?

                            Can the politicians be so well educated, and yet so disconnected that they are not putting the pieces together? Why is it some of us can understand the dynamics involved and conclude unless there is substantial change we are on a course for very hard times?

                            I post about this subject a lot because it is on my mind, but I am not sitting quietly waiting for the shoe to drop. I get on with the business of living and I would hope everyone reading here does the same. We should not put our lives on hold, but seize the day and make the most of it. Worst case scenario if things do get really bad, means we will pull together, work harder and see life as more precious. Maybe a wake up call will do us good?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Extreme Measures

                              Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                              I may be oversimplifying matters, but I think that if the leaders of this country had adhered to the Constitution, which they swore to uphold, we would not be in the mess that we find ourselves now. ...
                              Amen. Uphold does not mean "interpret for your own interests", or "obfuscate with legal mumbo-jumbo so it no longer means what it says". Term limits would be a great start, as well as recalling those that blatantly ignore the constitution, on the basis of lying under oath (their oath of office). Another correction overdue is an amendment that states" No one in government can be exempted from any law/regulation applying to those that they govern/regulate". When those that make the rules have to live under those same rules, a more realistic perspective occurs.

                              Tragic that anyone testifying before a congressional committee can go to jail for lying but the members of the committee are immune from any retribution.


                              Go
                              Practicing at practical wood working

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Extreme Measures

                                Originally posted by DSurette View Post
                                I may be oversimplifying matters, but I think that if the leaders of this country had adhered to the Constitution, which they swore to uphold, we would not be in the mess that we find ourselves now. If it were only possible to get rid of all politicians and elect statesmen who are interested in the welfare of the country instead of their own special interests. Term limits would be a start.
                                I think you're right on point. This is not what Jefferson et al had in mind. We have somehow morphed into a system where $5000 per plate breakfasts with congresspeople, attended by lobbyists and corporate money-bags, is somehow ok. When the topic comes it's just taken for granted. And the Supreme Court decides that corporations get the same freedom of speech that citizens do. Orwell said it, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

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