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  • #61
    Re: Extreme Measures

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    The people have made it pretty clear that at this time we do not want national health care and yet Mr. Obama does not seem to understand the message, so he will once again try to ram this through. Meanwhile unemployment is rising.
    Yeah, and I can point to a half dozen polls that says the majority of Americans want health care reform, which includes the public option.

    Hey, no one complained when Bush rammed trillions of dollars of debt down our throats. No one complained about the Patriot Act. I see no evidence that Obama is trying to take over our lives.

    Frank - the republicans have immobilized the senate in a way that those obstructionist dems back in the 90's could only dream of. But back then, the minority party was just being obstructionists, while todays minority party is doing the right thing. Can you smell the hypocrisy? There were a few principled repubs that crossed the isle today to help break yet another filibuster and pass a jobs bill. We've seen what happens when you let the repubs run loose for five or six years. The dems in the current congress haven't been given the same opportunity to pass legislation that the repubs did under Hastert, Frist, Lott, Delay......

    I'd suggest that there be no taxes on corporations. Zero. Zip. Nada. However, they must be USA based, have USA employees. No capital gains taxes for the corporation so long as it is directly invested back into the corporation. Corporate officers get taxed at the same rate I do and their income is capped at 10 times that of the lowest paid employee.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Extreme Measures

      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
      Yeah, and I can point to a half dozen polls that says the majority of Americans want health care reform, which includes the public option.

      Hey, no one complained when Bush rammed trillions of dollars of debt down our throats. No one complained about the Patriot Act. I see no evidence that Obama is trying to take over our lives.

      Frank - the republicans have immobilized the senate in a way that those obstructionist dems back in the 90's could only dream of. But back then, the minority party was just being obstructionists, while todays minority party is doing the right thing. Can you smell the hypocrisy? There were a few principled repubs that crossed the isle today to help break yet another filibuster and pass a jobs bill. We've seen what happens when you let the repubs run loose for five or six years. The dems in the current congress haven't been given the same opportunity to pass legislation that the repubs did under Hastert, Frist, Lott, Delay......

      I'd suggest that there be no taxes on corporations. Zero. Zip. Nada. However, they must be USA based, have USA employees. No capital gains taxes for the corporation so long as it is directly invested back into the corporation. Corporate officers get taxed at the same rate I do and their income is capped at 10 times that of the lowest paid employee.
      Yes, Americans want health care reform. They just don't want this health care reform. We don't need another trillion dollar expense for another government-run fiasco, certainly not right now.

      It's an amazing statement to say that no one complained at Bush's debt or the Patriot Act. Many of us squealed like stuck pigs. I certainly did, and about more than just those two things. Bush finished out his presidency with one of the lowest approval ratings in the history of approval ratings. I would say that's quite a complaint.

      I agree with your notion of incentivizing corporations via tax law. There are many ways for American corporations to have American employees and still import essentially everything, so I don't see your exact plan gaining the desired results. But heavily rewarding desirable behavior and discouraging undesired behavior via tax law is something that needs to happen.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Extreme Measures

        Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
        Corporate officers get taxed at the same rate I do and their income is capped at 10 times that of the lowest paid employee.
        I'm going to say that's just ridiculuous. I guy who manages tens of thousands of people should make $70/hr, because a bunch of those guys make minimum wage? That's only $140,00 a year. That's just silly.

        The CEO of the company I work for makes 203 times as much as I do. I'm A-OK with that since he has to manage hundreds of thousands of people, make the strategic decisions that will grow profit, and when you compare it to revenue it is only 0.02%.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Extreme Measures

          Spiff. I agree with your corporate tax scheme. I have been saying that same thing for years. but it would seem a very radical proposal for someone that has a decided lean to the left.

          And yes we did complain bitterly when Bush pushed that spending bill through. Hannity, Rush, Beck and OReilly all came out strongly against it. Many of us were against the patriot act as well. regardless of what Democrats think we do not follow blindly follow the party line. Wrong is still wrong no matter who proposes it. One last thing though. Mr. Obama's approval rating has dropped even further. He is officially the least popular president in the history of polling.
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Extreme Measures

            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
            Yeah, and I can point to a half dozen polls that says the majority of Americans want health care reform, which includes the public option.

            Hey, no one complained when Bush rammed trillions of dollars of debt down our throats. No one complained about the Patriot Act. I see no evidence that Obama is trying to take over our lives.

            Frank - the republicans have immobilized the senate in a way that those obstructionist dems back in the 90's could only dream of. But back then, the minority party was just being obstructionists, while todays minority party is doing the right thing. Can you smell the hypocrisy? There were a few principled repubs that crossed the isle today to help break yet another filibuster and pass a jobs bill. We've seen what happens when you let the repubs run loose for five or six years. The dems in the current congress haven't been given the same opportunity to pass legislation that the repubs did under Hastert, Frist, Lott, Delay......

            I'd suggest that there be no taxes on corporations. Zero. Zip. Nada. However, they must be USA based, have USA employees. No capital gains taxes for the corporation so long as it is directly invested back into the corporation. Corporate officers get taxed at the same rate I do and their income is capped at 10 times that of the lowest paid employee.
            Sorry Spiff, but you are verry wrong. Had you read some of the high spirited political Threads on this site back then, you would understand how very wrong you are! The Patriot Act is a blow to personal freedoms, but it was also necessary to help prottect Americans. Wiretaps, searches and seizures trump bombings and the loss of innocent American lives in my book.

            I can only gather from the continued back and forth of whose political party is good and whose is bad, that there is no urgent national crisis that warrants our concern? The republicans are better obstructionists than the dems, so we should back the dems and their faulted plans and lack of national priorities while they push their own agenda? No!!!

            I was against McCain when he suggested taxing my healthcare benefits, and President Obama's suggestions will negatively impact my life as well. Taxing my hard earned medical benefits would interfere with my life. His plan would further weaken the American consumer in order to provide coverage for a very few. Why not fix the economy first? Stop the wars we can't pay for, stop borrowing from communist china, stop throwing our tax money at select states and call it a stimulus!

            We are not in a war against eachother, but to read these posts one would think that's the case. Both political parties have hurt our country over the last forty to fifty years, and now that they still are serving themselves, instead of seeing them for what they are folks are still defending them!

            Spiff, you can demonize the republicans but it won't make the dems the party to represent the people and save America. You and others can define me as a conservative because I refuse to support the people I voted for, but that's also not true. Admit both parties along with shortsighted capitalism and a apathetic electorate are responsible for our current mess. Take off the political blinders and see the damage done by war, not just the monetary debt but the human cost. I voted for change and I still have war, still have all the problems I did before the election only now I face higher taxes and a loss of benefits. Maybe I face a further lowering of my standard of living?

            While folks here and elsewhere are arguing politics, the spending continues, the debt rises, the economy worsens, and we grow closer to a tragic conclusion. I don't want to be right, I don't want to make my point and win the debate if that's possible. I want the folks I voted for and those I did not, to pull together and fix my country before it's too late. Is that too much to ask for, too much to expect?

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Extreme Measures

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Sorry Spiff, but you are verry wrong. Had you read some of the high spirited political Threads on this site back then, you would understand how very wrong you are! The Patriot Act is a blow to personal freedoms, but it was also necessary to help prottect Americans. Wiretaps, searches and seizures trump bombings and the loss of innocent American lives in my book.

              I can only gather from the continued back and forth of whose political party is good and whose is bad, that there is no urgent national crisis that warrants our concern? The republicans are better obstructionists than the dems, so we should back the dems and their faulted plans and lack of national priorities while they push their own agenda? No!!!

              I was against McCain when he suggested taxing my healthcare benefits, and President Obama's suggestions will negatively impact my life as well. Taxing my hard earned medical benefits would interfere with my life. His plan would further weaken the American consumer in order to provide coverage for a very few. Why not fix the economy first? Stop the wars we can't pay for, stop borrowing from communist china, stop throwing our tax money at select states and call it a stimulus!

              We are not in a war against eachother, but to read these posts one would think that's the case. Both political parties have hurt our country over the last forty to fifty years, and now that they still are serving themselves, instead of seeing them for what they are folks are still defending them!

              Spiff, you can demonize the republicans but it won't make the dems the party to represent the people and save America. You and others can define me as a conservative because I refuse to support the people I voted for, but that's also not true. Admit both parties along with shortsighted capitalism and a apathetic electorate are responsible for our current mess. Take off the political blinders and see the damage done by war, not just the monetary debt but the human cost. I voted for change and I still have war, still have all the problems I did before the election only now I face higher taxes and a loss of benefits. Maybe I face a further lowering of my standard of living?

              While folks here and elsewhere are arguing politics, the spending continues, the debt rises, the economy worsens, and we grow closer to a tragic conclusion. I don't want to be right, I don't want to make my point and win the debate if that's possible. I want the folks I voted for and those I did not, to pull together and fix my country before it's too late. Is that too much to ask for, too much to expect?
              Frank - I've no doubt you're a great guy, and well liked by many in the real world. I don't think there is all that much that separates you, I or even some of the more disagreeable online personalities here and anywhere else on the Internet. This medium doesn't allow for the kind of spirited give and take that allows people the kind of nuances that regulate a real time, real life conversation without raising blood pressures. These online posts lack the kind of dynamics that prevent people from being interpreted as extremists. The anonymity of the environment likely allows us to say things in ways that are expedient and probably rougher around the edges than were the parties sitting around the coffee table.

              I don't think we are that far apart, although to read these posts one would think our differences are irreconcilable.

              But to be clear, I am a registered independent. I vote green party at the local level, dem at the national level (but I have to hold my nose). Both parties are corporatists that worship the all mighty dollar or yuan. If the dems were ever to return to their roots, or the repubs to return to the party of Eisenhower, we the people would greatly benefit.

              Anyway, I'm sure this post will ruffle some feathers and I apologize in advance as that is not my intention. Both parties say what we want to hear, but then do their own thing.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Extreme Measures

                Anyway, I'm sure this post will ruffle some feathers and I apologize in advance as that is not my intention. Both parties say what we want to hear, but then do their own thing.

                Truer words have not yet been spoken.

                In the end I suspect the vast majority of us are pretty conservative by nature. Not the kind of conservative as defined by the media, but the common sense kind. We are not blind and with the internet and all we are no longer saddled with one or two sources of news. To quote Bob Dylan " the times they are a changing"
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Extreme Measures

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  The Patriot Act is a blow to personal freedoms, but it was also necessary to help prottect Americans. Wiretaps, searches and seizures trump bombings and the loss of innocent American lives in my book.
                  Frank, this is one of the few areas where I disagree with you. The Patriot Act was IMO the exact response I would expect from the right wing extreme factions. One of the problems with that group as a whole is that they don't believe in the sanctity of freedom, unless it happens to be their freedom. And the don't believe in the right to dissent, unless you happen to agree with them in dissent regarding someone/something else.

                  Many don't realize that the original incarnation of the Patriot Act included provisions for tracking what YOU AND I read at libraries. That should scare hell out of you far more than any airplane-bombs.

                  America is precisely worth maintaining and sustaining because of the extraordinary degree of personal liberty that have been guaranteed to us by the Constitution. The Patriot Act - and I feel nauseous at the hypocrisy of the name - dismantles many of those sacred rights. Yes we are under threat from enemies. We have been before. Today we rail at the imprisonment of Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor. As I see it, the Patriot Act is a wider application of those same misguided and un-American principles.

                  Protections afforded by the Constitution do not preclude the Government from integlligence gathering. The Patriot Act allows the Fed to unilaterally infringe your rights with little to no accountability becasue it removes the safeguards that are thre to protect you. This is done under the guide of terrorism prevention, but the implication is far more severe than the terrorist threat. Personally, I strongly believe that terrorism provides nothing more than a convenient excuse for this disaster of a bill, pushed by a group that has no respect for your personal freedom.

                  Good Americans - very many of them - have died to preserve the very freedoms that the Patriot Act abridges or denies. We have always been willing to die to protect our liberty. It is entirely un-American, and in my view weak, to quickly give up those freedoms because of a threat. We have extraordinary resources, financial and technological, to combat any enemy, without such as travesty as the Patriot Act.

                  Between disease and battle, it's estimated by some that 25000 Americans died in the Revolutionary War to secure outr freedom. We have since lost far, far more than that to preserve it. Frank, and here is where I strongly disagre with you, a threat from a bunch of radicals should in no way trump the personal liberty that Americans fought and died to secure for us. No way.

                  When you take away hallmark Liberties and protections that are the cornerstone of our nation, what exactly is left to be patriotic about? This is yet another case where we sit idly by, take the pablum and let our real enemies destroy our Country.
                  Last edited by Andy_M; 02-23-2010, 12:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Extreme Measures

                    Spiff, thanks for the vote of confidence and compliment. In the real world I am outspoken and as a result my social circle is very limited. My honest and open manner has also caused a lot of problems in my relationship with inlaws and my wife. That said, I believe most of the folks here, yourself included are good people.

                    Andy, I understand your views and concerns regarding the patriot act. I would like to think a handful of radicals could not or should not be able to infringe on our rights or freedoms, but as a practical matter they have. I think we must respond or leave ourselves open to more attacks,not that we are much safer. Has the act lead to governmental abuse? Probably, but where is the answer that protects both life and limb, and also our rights and freedoms? There is such a conflict in dealing with these terrorists and not letting them meet their objective, while at the same time maintaining our pre 9/11 way of life and illusion of security. I am not thrilled with the patriot act, but for right now if it helps avoid a loss of life, in my opinion it is a necessary evil.

                    We here have our own political views, molded by our life's experience. We also understand the cold hard facts surrounding incurring debt, earning income and paying bills. Given societal trends and governmental behavior over the last forty to fifty years, can any of us say we have faith our leaders are working to fix the serious problems facing our nation? Do we believe another change in governing party will result in the needed change?

                    Last year I would have called myself a moderate or independant, now the term extremist would best describe my political leanings. If the "proven" agenda or behavior of your chosen party has not brought about the necessary change, then the answer must be an "extreme" change in party ideals, or an extreme change to government as usual. The same behavior, business as usual cannot be expected to bring about the change necessary to save our economy and country. Am I wrong? Even if we disagree on specific issues, can we at least agree that something along the lines of extreme change is paramount to turning our country around?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Extreme Measures

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      Spiff, thanks for the vote of confidence and compliment. In the real world I am outspoken and as a result my social circle is very limited. My honest and open manner has also caused a lot of problems in my relationship with inlaws and my wife. That said, I believe most of the folks here, yourself included are good people.

                      Andy, I understand your views and concerns regarding the patriot act. I would like to think a handful of radicals could not or should not be able to infringe on our rights or freedoms, but as a practical matter they have. I think we must respond or leave ourselves open to more attacks,not that we are much safer. Has the act lead to governmental abuse? Probably, but where is the answer that protects both life and limb, and also our rights and freedoms? There is such a conflict in dealing with these terrorists and not letting them meet their objective, while at the same time maintaining our pre 9/11 way of life and illusion of security. I am not thrilled with the patriot act, but for right now if it helps avoid a loss of life, in my opinion it is a necessary evil.

                      We here have our own political views, molded by our life's experience. We also understand the cold hard facts surrounding incurring debt, earning income and paying bills. Given societal trends and governmental behavior over the last forty to fifty years, can any of us say we have faith our leaders are working to fix the serious problems facing our nation? Do we believe another change in governing party will result in the needed change?

                      Last year I would have called myself a moderate or independant, now the term extremist would best describe my political leanings. If the "proven" agenda or behavior of your chosen party has not brought about the necessary change, then the answer must be an "extreme" change in party ideals, or an extreme change to government as usual. The same behavior, business as usual cannot be expected to bring about the change necessary to save our economy and country. Am I wrong? Even if we disagree on specific issues, can we at least agree that something along the lines of extreme change is paramount to turning our country around?
                      Frank, I respect your views. On this one, I can't agree. The terrorists haven't infringed on your freedoms. Your Government has. THey preyed on our FEAR. Mere fear of another terrorist attack is not an excuse for abridging the Liberty that is the foundation of our country. Our nation has been afflicted by creeping socialism, creeping abuse, creeping corruption, and creeping influence by special interests. The cumulative effect of all this erosion of the basic premises and principles of the Constitution are the reason we are in this pickle. Erosion of personal freedoms is just another case. You can't decide that some erosions are ok and some are not. The whole thing is malignant, and needs to be cut out.

                      Now we have those that wish to overtly encroach on your most precious assets as an American. Terrorist activity provided the excuse to push this through. The naming of this most unpatriotic legislation is, on top of it all, a huge insult. They wish to take away the very things that you pay taxes to secure. The very things that our relatives have died for. I am proud of our forefathers, as well as our parents and grandparents, brothers and friends that died to protect our Liberty. I doubt if our descendants in twenty years will look back at the Patriot Act and be proud of us for opening another door to those would erode yet more of America. I can see them asking, "What the hell were they thinking?" - just as we ask those questions about the "service economy" today.

                      There are people that want to control you. They currently do so through taxes, through visibility into your banking transactions, etc. For us to blindly let them have yet greater control, and actually legalize the circumvention of protections designed to preserve your freedom out of fear is very disrespectful to every single person that died to defend it. How little their sacrifice means if we are willing to give away what they died for because we have been threatened and attacked!

                      As you alluded to, the Patriot Act is ineffective and hasn't really done much if anything to protect you. It can't. We can't respond to threats from outside by passively giving up our freedom in the hope that it will magically make the threat disappear. The American way is to face those that attack us. By causing us to abdicate even a single freedom, our enemies have won in that they have inspired fear that has modified our basic principles. That is what terrorists intend to do. It hasn't made you any safer. Is it OK to pay for something that you aren't getting? You've paid a high price for protection against terrorism, the highest price - constitutional protection of your privacy and liberty - and gotten little. Is it OK to hand over this payment simply becasue we weren't given a better option? No, I don't think so. You send the defense department and homeland security back to think harder.

                      You asked, "where is the answer that protects both life and limb, and also our rights and freedoms?" The answer is that there are no guarantees. Yet, we can't be so afraid of the challenge that we give everything away. Our parents weren't afraid to die for the their liberty and they did risk it all. I fully expect that there will be more terrrorist attacks - we all do, including the government. But what are better choices? Ineffective ground wars aren't he answer, as we should have known but certainly have painfully learned. How about instead we cut off their funding by developing alternate energy and putting both the terrorists and the governments that covertly support them out of business? How about massive aerial attacks on the drug industries that also fund those activities? How about orders of magnitude greater emphasis on infiltration and other covert activities to disrupt their cells and plans? The efforts we employ in this regard today in covert activities, communication monitoring and clandestine surveillance are far more effective than the war - and certainly more effective than the spying on our own citizens. My point is that there are a lot of high-payback activities we should pursue that focus on the enemy, not on our own citizens. Tanks and troops aren't proving to be terribly efficient against this enemy, are they?

                      I also am quite sure that abuses have occured. But even if it wasn't the case that there are abuses, what is to stop there from being abuse in the future? The Patriot Act has eliminated accountability. Our government was designed with checks and balances and due process. Let's say someone walked into city hall and shot someone in cold blood in front of a dozen witnesses. That person would be afforded protection under the law and due process. Some would argue that this is silly and a waste, but it isn't.... the blind, consistent and unwavering application of due process in this hypothetical case is precisely the guarantee that the Government won't come to YOUR house in the middle of the night and take YOU away to a lynching. You can't suspend the protections selectively. The architects of the Constitution understood this. Once the floodgates are open, they're open.

                      Sorry to rant.. but this Patriot Act to me is nothing short of an abomination. We've been led like sheep yet again - same as with the banking, the offshoring of jobs, etc. - and meekly given up something that just should not have ever even been on the table.
                      Last edited by Andy_M; 02-23-2010, 04:15 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Extreme Measures

                        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                        Frank, I respect your views. On this one, I can't agree. The terrorists haven't infringed on your freedoms. Your Government has. THey preyed on our FEAR. Mere fear of another terrorist attack is not an excuse for abridging the Liberty that is the foundation of our country. Our nation has been afflicted by creeping socialism, creeping abuse, creeping corruption, and creeping influence by special interests. The cumulative effect of all this erosion of the basic premises and principles of the Constitution are the reason we are in this pickle. Erosion of personal freedoms is just another case. You can't decide that some erosions are ok and some are not. The whole thing is malignant, and needs to be cut out.

                        Now we have those that wish to overtly encroach on your most precious assets as an American. Terrorist activity provided the excuse to push this through. The naming of this most unpatriotic legislation is, on top of it all, a huge insult. They wish to take away the very things that you pay taxes to secure. The very things that our relatives have died for. I am proud of our forefathers, as well as our parents and grandparents, brothers and friends that died to protect our Liberty. I doubt if our descendants in twenty years will look back at the Patriot Act and be proud of us for opening another door to those would erode yet more of America. I can see them asking, "What the hell were they thinking?" - just as we ask those questions about the "service economy" today.

                        There are people that want to control you. They currently do so through taxes, through visibility into your banking transactions, etc. For us to blindly let them have yet greater control, and actually legalize the circumvention of protections designed to preserve your freedom out of fear is very disrespectful to every single person that died to defend it. How little their sacrifice means if we are willing to give away what they died for because we have been threatened and attacked!

                        As you alluded to, the Patriot Act is ineffective and hasn't really done much if anything to protect you. It can't. We can't respond to threats from outside by passively giving up our freedom in the hope that it will magically make the threat disappear. The American way is to face those that attack us. By causing us to abdicate even a single freedom, our enemies have won in that they have inspired fear that has modified our basic principles. That is what terrorists intend to do. It hasn't made you any safer. Is it OK to pay for something that you aren't getting? You've paid a high price for protection against terrorism, the highest price - constitutional protection of your privacy and liberty - and gotten little. Is it OK to hand over this payment simply becasue we weren't given a better option? No, I don't think so. You send the defense department and homeland security back to think harder.

                        You asked, "where is the answer that protects both life and limb, and also our rights and freedoms?" The answer is that there are no guarantees. Yet, we can't be so afraid of the challenge that we give everything away. Our parents weren't afraid to die for the their liberty and they did risk it all. I fully expect that there will be more terrrorist attacks - we all do, including the government. But what are better choices? Ineffective ground wars aren't he answer, as we should have known but certainly have painfully learned. How about instead we cut off their funding by developing alternate energy and putting both the terrorists and the governments that covertly support them out of business? How about massive aerial attacks on the drug industries that also fund those activities? How about orders of magnitude greater emphasis on infiltration and other covert activities to disrupt their cells and plans? The efforts we employ in this regard today in covert activities, communication monitoring and clandestine surveillance are far more effective than the war - and certainly more effective than the spying on our own citizens. My point is that there are a lot of high-payback activities we should pursue that focus on the enemy, not on our own citizens. Tanks and troops aren't proving to be terribly efficient against this enemy, are they?

                        I also am quite sure that abuses have occured. But even if it wasn't the case that there are abuses, what is to stop there from being abuse in the future? The Patriot Act has eliminated accountability. Our government was designed with checks and balances and due process. Let's say someone walked into city hall and shot someone in cold blood in front of a dozen witnesses. That person would be afforded protection under the law and due process. Some would argue that this is silly and a waste, but it isn't.... the blind, consistent and unwavering application of due process in this hypothetical case is precisely the guarantee that the Government won't come to YOUR house in the middle of the night and take YOU away to a lynching. You can't suspend the protections selectively. The architects of the Constitution understood this. Once the floodgates are open, they're open.

                        Sorry to rant.. but this Patriot Act to me is nothing short of an abomination. We've been led like sheep yet again - same as with the banking, the offshoring of jobs, etc. - and meekly given up something that just should not have ever even been on the table.
                        Andy, I'm sorry I could not convey my similar dislike for the patriot act. You wrote a great post and made some valid points. If we had a more responsive government, I agree there would have been better alternatives.
                        We didn't have a responsive government back then and we don't have one now. We don't have great minds at work, willing to make better choices such as those you suggest. They always seem to make half hearted attempts that impact Americans more than the folks we are fighting. Most folks who lived through the Vietnam era know full well that the war made some folks rich, and was not orchestrated to have us win. I don't buy that it was unwinable. I totally agree that the patriot act was not the best legislation or decision to prevent further attacks, it was just the only thing they were willing to do. Yes, there will be more attacks and there will be many more abuses. There will be many more brave American lives lost abroad, and many lives changed forever. No winners here at all, nothing to cheer about.

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