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Extreme Measures

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  • Extreme Measures

    Been another rough day and I'm in a bad mood, so just ignore this Thread if it doesn't make sense. We've discussed buying American, but seriously at this point what will it take to save our economy? I know our legislators won't step up and resolve anything, so things will run their course and eventually we will be in deep doo doo. Not the kind our best plumbers can fix either! I was thinking it would taking something very drastic such as bringing all the troops home, suspending social security and unemployment payments and welfare too. Instead of handing our checks, set up food programs to feed everyone and some kind of system to credit housing providers? I know I must sound insane, but our states are going bankrupt, they cannot sustain their budgets. Our federal spending is far too great and so is the borrowing. We are invovled in a downward spiral on many fronts and unless I'm mistaken, not much of anything is being done about it.

    Buying American is not an answer for saving our economy any longer. the problems are too great and far beyond such a simple fix. Can anyone suggest a broader plan to address all these issues? How long before the bottom falls out and we do see a depression?

    I know a depression was averted with the bailouts and stimulus, but we are in negative territory and going deeper every day. In my opinion the stock market upturn does not represent any improvement in our economy, and certainly does not reflect any change in government spending or debt.

    Today they announced another 470,000 plus American out of work, why is their no outrage over this? When do we reach the breaking point when we can't print more money or borrow more? When does the bill come due?

  • #2
    Re: Extreme Measures

    Rough day, and a bad mood? Standard daily workday for me. Anyrate -

    Here is what can solve every problem known to man:

    A completely unreasonable, and equally unnecessary, amounts of high yield explosives

    Last edited by tailgunner; 02-18-2010, 08:48 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Extreme Measures

      Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
      Rough day, and a bad mood? Standard daily workday for me. Anyrate -

      Here is what can solve every problem known to man:

      A completely unreasonable, and equally unnecessary, amounts of high yield explosives

      I guess things have gotten much worse than in my day when a bigger hammer would suffice?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Extreme Measures

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        When does the bill come due?
        Today?

        I live in NYS

        Hows this:

        New York State tax return delay

        News 10NBC - Pat McGonigle - ‎2 hours ago‎
        The state doesn't have enough money to pay it's bills so Governor Paterson may hold on to your state tax refund. Paterson says don't blame him. ...
        Tax refund WatertownDailyTimes.com

        State continues to send out tax refunds Catskill Daily Mail

        Paterson Might Delay Tax Returns To Improve Cash Flow Gothamist

        WKBW-TV - WTEN

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Extreme Measures

          But frank,

          I have no idea, Its HUGE mess out there,

          I wish I had an answer myself

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Extreme Measures

            New York State has NEVER been on time for anything. Why start now?

            The condition of I-90 from Utica to the Mass border should be agood indicator that that!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Extreme Measures

              Getting rid of NAFTA would be a good start!
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              • #8
                Re: Extreme Measures

                Instead of wasting more and more money on slush fund BS, why not just take that money, and like you said, just pull our boys home (but, you could argue, what are they going to do when they come home, there is no work for them) and hack every single home owners mortgage in half, I don't care if you own a million dollar home or a 20k dollar home, just hack every single mortgage in half. Can you imagine the amount of money that would pour into the economy! People would go on a buying spree like no one has ever saw!


                Or how about this, suspend all government programs, I mean, cut, shut down, over with. Halt all income taxes for 6 months, hell, even a year, I dont care. Freeze all tax rates for 2 years so that they cant hike them when re-instated, and ONLY fund Police, Fire and Military and 100% critical spending. No more hand outs, no more welfare, none of it, let these people depend on family, friends, local charities/churches, and neighbors to survive, let them endure a little embarrassment and humility, might just make them want to change their lifestyle and get out from the hole they continue to dig themselves into with the government shovels that are issued to them every month.

                I am with you though, something drastic needs to happen, I think we are past just little changes to make any amount of change needed to turn around. Tax hikes of any kind are going to be devastating. The fact that China dumped our TB's is frightening!

                Oh, hey, I got one for you, completely dump the tax code and go to a consumption tax ONLY, problem solved with tax dodgers and will instantly jump consumer goods spending.

                I am all ears though, anything is better than the bull we have been fed over the past 60 years or so. Something needs to change, and drastically.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Extreme Measures

                  Originally posted by Gene Bickford View Post
                  Getting rid of NAFTA would be a good start!
                  So..............how would that help, Gene?

                  Not trying to be snarky here, but have you read/are you familiar with the agreement and the implications of changing/eliminating it?


                  Here's a hint - there's REALLY cheap oil in there.....

                  So what happens if the US has to pay more for oil - isn't that just worsening the spending problem?
                  I'm on "The List" and I love it!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Extreme Measures

                    Interesting fact having to do with trade

                    The United States is the worlds largest producer of cotton

                    We sell most of that cotton to China

                    China makes cloths out of it and sells the cloths back to us
                    at prices that are far below what we could make them for ourselves.

                    If you were forced to buy only American made products, the cheapest toaster you could buy would cost $ 65.00 Wal-Mart sells them for 6 bucks.

                    Try and imagine what would happen to the cost of goods if we were forced to buy only American products.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Extreme Measures

                      Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                      Interesting fact having to do with trade

                      The United States is the worlds largest producer of cotton

                      We sell most of that cotton to China

                      China makes cloths out of it and sells the cloths back to us
                      at prices that are far below what we could make them for ourselves.

                      If you were forced to buy only American made products, the cheapest toaster you could buy would cost $ 65.00 Wal-Mart sells them for 6 bucks.

                      Try and imagine what would happen to the cost of goods if we were forced to buy only American products.
                      What would happen? People would quit there unnecessary consumerism and throw away mentality.

                      J.C.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Extreme Measures

                        I don't know guys, we have some concerns and reasonable questions and suggestions, but the scope of the problem is enormous. What really bothers me is that there are brilliant folks who do understand not only the enormity of the problem but what it would take to fix it, but we don't hear from them! We get more lies, misinformation and distractions. I'm pretty sure if there is a fix, it is not waiting to be sprung on us by either political party. They are both clueless or so fixated on their own agenda, that the serious issue of our economy and the necessary extreme measures to fix it are not on their radar.

                        We are just talking here, throwing out ideas, but everyday that passes and nothing positive is done to change the picture just brings us closer to a time when it becomes more than just talk. I don't want to pay $65 for a $8 dollar toaster, but it would beat dealing with a depression if that's what it takes. I'm open to opposing thoughts, and hope I'm very wrong about how bad things are and how much worse they are going to get.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Extreme Measures

                          I'd be damned glad to pay $65 for a toaster that works properly. My $14 Wal Mart made in Chinko Pinko land special will burn the first two slices and make stale bread thereafter unless you sit there and birddog and fiddle with the damned thing.

                          Buy once cry once, buy twice or trice and bawl your damned brains out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Extreme Measures

                            If one would just strip the feds of doing what is not in the Constitution, would go a long way, (to be realistic this would have to be done in planed and calculated steps as not drive the economy in to disaster and so those who would become responsible for the area deleated, (in most instances the states) could work in the new role, in the process much of the portion federal tax burden would then be transfered to the state government, for it support of the new or expanding those roles,

                            but if you did, it would be much like what was stated in the first post,



                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            there would be a few things that would help turn it around, one

                            when it comes to senate and Representatives to (1) to the time they serve, (2) all the laws pertain to them as well, and when they are no longer serving there term there money stops, and (3) limit the days congress can meet, to about a 1/4 of what it is now, (4), give them a government apartments and then reduce there salary to what is the average ever what there state average is. and a limited travel or business budget.

                            yes many of the programs would need to be limited or reduced,

                            for any agency of the Federal government, that makes regulatory policy that policy and even the rules would at least have to be approved by a committee of both house and senate, and could be revised or eliminated at will of congress,

                            Laws passed by congress would normally have a sunset clause in them and unless there was a 75% or greater vote of both house and senate, would be needed to make it a permanent law (or no sun set on it), other wise it would sunset in 3 to 5 years, and would need to be extended at a later date if to continue,

                            no bill could have non related amendments in it. (no earmarks) and all funding would have to stand on it own merit, not piggybacked on some thing else,

                            and I think term limits on the Congress and Representatives, (it should be a peoples government, not a professional one),

                            I also think that a person should be a resident of the state for a number of years before being able to run for a senate or house seat, (at least equal to the length of term there running for)

                            I think also a percentage of GNP (excluding emergency), should be a set maximum for running of the federal government, (taking away there revenue generating needs and schemes)
                            on the state level some percentage of it state combined produced revenue, as a max for state spending, and personally I think if the economy would growing at some positive percent, a proportion of that should go to a saving account for the state when revenues may drop do to a down turn, (and the saving accounts could not be touched until the rate of growth was at a lower level, so it could not be robbed (like social security was by congress) and used for what ever.

                            and I think there needs to be some limiting rules that would even drop down to the local level,
                            (for example some small town to use there police force to raise revenue, thought questionable speed stops or other, for the towns coffers, law enforcement should be for law enforcement, not cash generation).

                            currently the way things have become the foxes are watching the hen house, and they do not care if they destroy there food supply (the US economy) as long there currently fat and happy.


                            MY two cents, that may be all it worth,
                            Last edited by BHD; 02-18-2010, 11:23 PM.
                            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                            attributed to Samuel Johnson
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Extreme Measures

                              I agree that drastic measures are needed. Unfortunately it took a long time to screw things up and it will take a long time and a lot of pain to fix them. You can't really just "stop" programs and spending cold turkey - as attractive as that may be, the result would be to turn a slow economy into a stopped economy.

                              The number one thing that needs to happen is Americans need to get out of the mindset that we can't compete. What that attitude really means is that we have gotten too fat and lazy to compete. WE have the best educated population with the finest system of higer education in the world. WE are still the leading GDP nation on earth (fading fast, but still #1). WE CAN compete with nations of unsilled and semi-skilled, poorly educated people. But we will get our heads handed to us if we don't get in the game, and the problem is we don't seem to want to do that.

                              The second thing we need to all recognize is that there are two kinds of people in the United States. There are people that build things and then there are people that squeeze money out of things. The first kind of people built the United States. The second kind is running the show right now. This would include the financial community, the Federal Reserve, Wall Street and the current crop of CEOs running the major US corporations. And yes, both houses of Congress, POTUS & SCOTUS because they are owned by the financial community and corporate America. Not just this POTUS & Congress, either... every one since and including Nixon. I am very conservative - as conservative as you can be without being an anarchist- but we need to understand that the second kind of people will BLEED US DRY without regulation. And the only person with the horses to do that is Uncle Sugar. The bloodletting is really nothing new. It's been happening for a long time.

                              Third, we must accept that this is going to hurt. The problem is so overwhelmingly massive that spending cuts at this point are not going to have an effect. For cryin' out loud they GAVE AWAY our industry! In fact, we have no choice but to spend like mad for the next ten years. The key is going to be what we spend on. The debt will skyrocket. It must for us to do what is needed to re-establish the United States. But in the end, we WILL be energy independent and the once again we WILL be an industrial power. The result will be prosperity and increased tax revenue that will get us out of the very deep hole. Spending cuts only guarantee inaction, selaing the deal and merely dragging out our inevitable demise.

                              And then, we have to not let this happen again.

                              I posted the following before on another thread but I'll repeat it here since it's really a better fit with this thread. I added a couple of minor edits. These things are pretty extreme measures but in my view every one of them would help and is necessary. IF we started this tomorrow it would take 10 years to recover this country. If we start in 5 years it will take 20 years to recover. If we wait 10 years, we won't have to worry about it.

                              **************************

                              * Revise the tax code heavily to penalize corporations for importing parts and labor. Strongly incentivize business for investments in US manufacturing & manufacturing technology - in a "results based" way. The resulting growth will eventually increase government revenue. The "service economy" notion is being shown to be a failed experiment. The tax code also MUST be dramatically simplified. All the tens of thousands of provisions of the code should tell everyone that there are people making out and others (us) getting screwed.

                              * Immediately start a massive effort to develop practical energy independence. This needs to be comparable in committment level to the moon landing effort, but with a *much* larger budget. Sharply increase taxes on energy, including gasoline. Nationalize the oil companies and use ALL of their profits, along with the higher tax revenue from energy, to help fund the program. No pain, no gain.

                              * Eliminate the Federal Reserve system completely. That's all I'll say for now, because it would be a huge subject. They are screwing you very, very badly.

                              * Toughen up on trade policy. Trade isn't bad, and it is necessary. But don't allow unrestricted imports from nations that don't import American products in an equitable manner. THis shift in policy should be gradually phased in while we rebuild our industry. Heavily tax US corporations for going offshore for goods or parts. Do not only eliminate the tax benefits of outsourcing jobs, penalize outsourcing any labor that can be done inside the USA. Corporations exist to make money - it's all they know. We have to take away the financial incentive to go offshore.

                              * Establish protected industries and incubate their rebuilding. Many of the countries that are kicking our butts do this. For some reason we seem to think it's a bad thing.

                              * Stop bank subsidies and bailouts immediately. If banks are in trouble, break them up and sell the pieces. The bailouts are all a swindle that isn't helping. Instead, strongly incentivize small banks and establish tax benefits that encourage private lending.

                              * Break up the big banks. We don't need them. The bankers need them. You need some regulation, but a mostly-deregulated (ala Reagan, just a bit less extreme) system can work. The problem is, we forgot about antitrust and let some institutions get big. If you have BOTH deregulation AND huge central institutions, your'e in trouble and that should be the lesson of the past 18 months.

                              * Make political lobbyists illegal, with no exceptions.

                              * Put real teeth in antitrust regulations in general. This is a huge problem.

                              * Increase defense spending. Not by having wars, but by modernization of aircraft, radar, high tech intelligence systems, weapon systems, etc. This is not war mongering. It creates important jobs at all levels, provides an elastic market to absorb technology AND factory workers, and results in many important technical developments (rather that the private system that gives us Twitter and Facebook). Plus it will keep us secure, which is going to be important. When you think enemy, think missiles aimed at you, not middle eastern fanatics throwing rocks and improvising bombs.

                              * Forget the current healthcare proposals - they are not smart. Instead, put draconian limits on the profits that insurance companies can realize. We are, if I remember correctly, the only Western industrialized nation that has no limit on the profits that insurance companies can make on health care. Fix this and costs will come down. Limit health insurance by law to major medical only. We should all write a check for our minor and routine health care. The insurance companies are making a killing on this and have gotten waaaay too large. Why is it I pay $150 a month for a gardener to maintain my yards but I have to have an insurance company pay for my annual medical checkup? Dumb.

                              * Completely revise the election process. It's clearly an ethical nightmare, and the country has become numb and is turning a blind eye to it. The recent SCOTUS decision re Citizens United v. FEC should point this out clearly.

                              * This won't be popular: Cut out student financial aid for all but selected degree programs. Then, take that money, add some more, and give really low cost or preferably free education to US Citizens in the fields that will get us back on track: the sciences, math, engineering, etc. We don't need more lawyers, political science majors, or sociologists. If someone wants to be a poli sci major, great... but the Government can't afford to pay for it.

                              * Eliminate 401K, 403b, 457b tax deferred retirement plans. These are largely responsible for the stock market bubbles. Thy don't save anyone tax money. The government's revenue requirements are the same... these plans are just a redistribution of income scheme.

                              * Get the government out of the "gays in the military" business and all that sort of nonsense. I don't care about gays in the military or otherwise. There are real problems to worry about.

                              * Get away from local school district control of primary schools and high schools. They are way too inefficient. Cost per student spent by public schools is equivalent or higher than that spent per student in many private schools that achieve better results. Many teachers are good. Few administrators or school board officials are.

                              * I absolutely don't agree with outlawing micropocessors. With all due respect, that would be nuts and would kill us in a technology oriented world. But I DO fully believe that there should be NO COMPUTERS IN SCHOOLS. Johnny needs to read, write, be able to do math, and learn history. Whether he can navigate websites or click on icons is of no value.

                              * Stop talking about entitlement programs and phase them out. You can't screw the recipients that you have a contract wioth, but you CAN avoid entering new conntracts for entitlement bennies from this day forward. Focus on Civil Service and other government employee entitlements to start. The only entitlments that we should keep are Social Security and Medicare, both of which need to be revamped so that they work.

                              * There are more.
                              Last edited by Andy_M; 02-19-2010, 12:01 AM.

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