Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

It's not about health care

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: It's not about health care

    HCR, in my opinion, had one fatal flaw. And that was the dems were trying to do too much. IMO, had they just stuck to slapping the insurance companies around and tell them to behave through some draconian regulations, everything else would have taken care of itself.

    They didn't do this, mostly because as a political organization, they aren't very organized. It's in their DNA. The repubs, in concerted effort with their media machine, was able to create an impressive visual last summer. A few unruly, impolite and disrespectful persons were able stall and otherwise diminish the bills.

    Rather than engage in a meaning full exchange, do some horse trading, they made a calculation that Obama and the dems must be defeated at all cost if they ever wanted to be in the majority or see the oval office again.

    So we have one party over reaching, trying to do way too much, and the other triangulating a return to power. Which one is worse?

    The dems also do a terrible job of messaging. Of course Frank Luntz is a formidable word smith. And autistic savant.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: It's not about health care

      I believe the part which has really hurt the Democrats on the Health Care Reform was the blatant arrogance their leaders have shown. I believe they gave a half-hearted effort to be bipartisan and then locked the door to the Republicans and many of their own party. All the Republicans had to do was sit back and complained they were left out of the process. Before long some Democrats were saying the same thing and the public started seeing it as unfair. Now add in the special deals made to limited groups and it fell apart.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: It's not about health care

        I think what hurt the dems and their healthcare efforts were the lies! No transparency as promised and same old washington deal making politics. The days of business as usual are over as far as the voting public is concerned. We/they won't take it from the republicans or democrats, bunch of hypocrits and liars all!

        Instead of blaming News organizations, be truthful about the thousand page bills hidden from review and full of sweetheart deals. Place blame where it belongs, make them own it! I mean all of them on both sides of the aisle.

        We still have a falling economy, no jobs and growing debt. What are our legislators doing to correct this serious situation and impending doom? They are holding hearings about car problems We have thousands of Americans dying and getting wounded abroad, an economy in the toilet with millions unemployed and losing their homes, and the most important thing they can focus on is car problems?

        Fox News leaning towards republican or conseravtive values and the other players leaning the other way, have not been able to bring President Bush or President Obama to task. The administrations will do whatever the heck they want, America be damned. If you disagree then explain how they acted otherwise and we ended up like this?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: It's not about health care

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          I believe the part which has really hurt the Democrats on the Health Care Reform was the blatant arrogance their leaders have shown. I believe they gave a half-hearted effort to be bipartisan and then locked the door to the Republicans and many of their own party. All the Republicans had to do was sit back and complained they were left out of the process. Before long some Democrats were saying the same thing and the public started seeing it as unfair. Now add in the special deals made to limited groups and it fell apart.

          Mark
          I agree with you on this. Except that perhaps it wasn't half-hearted, maybe only quarter-hearted.

          I actually laughed at Obama addressing Congress. Now that he was no longer in total control, the message became, "why can't we all just get along".

          I'm not happy with any of 'em, but our President has very little credibility with me at this point.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: It's not about health care

            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
            IMO, had they just stuck to slapping the insurance companies around and tell them to behave through some draconian regulations, everything else would have taken care of itself.
            Draconian regulations like maybe forcing their rates to be reviewed and possibly capping their profits? Or like legislating the end of the pre-existing condition nonsense that would of course affect their profits? Like maybe forcing them to leave the medical decisions to the doctors? Or ending cartels where the insurance company IS the health care provider so that the poor patient is totally at their mercy?

            One could fill a page with the regulations, but yes, fixing the system in this way would have been far more effective and palatable than creating the jumble of rigamaroll that the Demos came up with. And the Republican "plan" if you can call it that, isn't much better. IT's not just that the Demos do a bterrible job at messaging. It's that they do a terrible job. As do the Repubs. They've both proven it.

            INsurance reform as the main part of reform is what I have been saying, although I wouldn't characterize it as simply telling the insurance companies "to behave".

            But glad you agree.

            It wouldn't be enough though. There is a need to have a serious review and redesign of medicare, for instance. Not just to expand it, as both parties would do.

            There needs to be a serious look at the educational system that produces physicians, in terms of the cost and artificial restrictions on numbers of seats in the med schools.

            But insurance reform is the cornerstone where it has to all start.
            Last edited by Andy_M; 03-10-2010, 09:48 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: It's not about health care

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              I believe the part which has really hurt the Democrats on the Health Care Reform was the blatant arrogance their leaders have shown. I believe they gave a half-hearted effort to be bipartisan and then locked the door to the Republicans and many of their own party. All the Republicans had to do was sit back and complained they were left out of the process. Before long some Democrats were saying the same thing and the public started seeing it as unfair. Now add in the special deals made to limited groups and it fell apart.

              Mark
              I agree. The dems had overwhelming majorities in both houses. They paid lip service to being bi-partisan, which upset a lot of people. How quickly the dems forgot that under republican rule there was no such thing as bi-partisanship. According to Hastert, Delay, Frist, Lott and on and on, it was all about majority rule.

              Hastert famously said that he was going to advance legislation based on the majority of the majority. Yeah, real bi-partisan.

              It's a little more than odd that the repubs cry foul about a lack of bi-partisanship when they abhor the mere mention of it when they are in power. It was their policies that failed to prevent, and in many cases accelerated and compounded the difficult choices we now face.

              I frankly don't trust the republicans to do what is best for the people. The dems on the other hand are completely incapable of doing the right thing for the people.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: It's not about health care

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Instead of blaming News organizations, be truthful about the thousand page bills hidden from review and full of sweetheart deals...
                Huh? You mean the bill Reid sent off to the CBO without anyone seeing it first? Nothing sneaky about that at all. If he would have brought it to the floor, the minority party would have picked it apart, stalled the process further and planted a poison pill in it.

                Once it was scored by the CBO, THEN it was brought to the floor for debate.

                What would you rather have, a three page bill written by hand a legal pad for $750 billion that specifically stated that there was to be no oversight on how this money was spent or where it was spent? Or a 2,000+ page bill that affects 1/6th of our economy?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: It's not about health care

                  Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                  Huh? You mean the bill Reid sent off to the CBO without anyone seeing it first? Nothing sneaky about that at all. If he would have brought it to the floor, the minority party would have picked it apart, stalled the process further and planted a poison pill in it.

                  Once it was scored by the CBO, THEN it was brought to the floor for debate.

                  What would you rather have, a three page bill written by hand a legal pad for $750 billion that specifically stated that there was to be no oversight on how this money was spent or where it was spent? Or a 2,000+ page bill that affects 1/6th of our economy?
                  Spiff, I would rather have the changes promised during the campaign. No more washington politics and business as usual, no more sweetheart deals.
                  The dems just proved they are as low as the republicans.

                  I would rather have the troops come home from where they are getting killed and maimed.

                  I would rather have the administrations efforts focused on unemployment and our failing economy.

                  I would rather have those brilliant legislative minds figure out how to stop going further into debt with communist china and make the USA prosperous once again.

                  In my opinion, now was not the time for much needed healthcare reform,
                  the thirty million plus uninsured could have been covered under some sort of emergency legislation. The country needed and still needs emergency surgery to bring it back from the brink of death. Wasting time on healthcare reform and hearings on car problems may have cost us our future.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: It's not about health care

                    about health care,

                    first I have seen little that if the Government got there hands in it it was not FUBAR in short order, so why would any sane person think they have the answer now?

                    IN our town they build a "new hospital" in about 1970, it was designed to have a office wing in the entrance, that would house records and administration, and worked well for many years, Now I go in to the building and nearly ever room (including old storage closets), is an office for some thing or the other, they have taken over many patent areas for pushing papers,

                    now who usually controls regulations and paper pushing needs? the Government,

                    I hear time and time again on how the private sector has to make up the money they lose in the Medicaid and Medicare programs, (who's insurance program is not paying it share? the Governments programs, and the private sector is having to make up for it.

                    I have talked to some of the maintenance staff, and they are always "up grading" the building to meet some new code that did not even exist a few years ago, costing the hospital district hundreds of thousands of dollars every year,

                    I have read on how some are paying what was a good salary a few years ago just for insurance,

                    some say insurance is the problem, (I ask if insurance is the problem why is there not the screaming in the auto insurance area), because the costs are more under control,

                    the last time I was really in need of hospital care, it cost me over $1000 an hr, for that stay, $25,000 for 23 hours in the building, and it was an out patent case for all practical reasons, and this was 15 years ago,
                    now If I charged like they did I would be sued for theft or fraud, in my work,
                    take a nursing home, many are in excess of $5000 a month, for three so so meals and a room and some one to help you take a crap,

                    it looks like to me the insurance companies are taking the estimated costs and the occurrence of the probable illness and factoring in the out lay and some profit and charging the customer accordingly,

                    much in the same way one figures a bid, on a job, now a company that insures millions of people and deals in billions of dollars ever year, even a small percentage of that would look like a lot of profit, but by a few small turns of events it may just as well be losses,
                    look at GM or any other large company, that got caught unprepared, when the economy crashed, (now with out some profit how does one make when things go sour),

                    I really think the insurance companies are not the cause but there targets, and like the article says it not about the Health care, it is about taking over 1/6 of the economy,
                    If you think your being screwed by your insurance company now wait until it is in Government hands,

                    since the Government take over of air line security.
                    Is air line security any better now?
                    Are people treated with any respect now in the security lines,
                    is there any common sense in there screening process, some child's name is the same as on a watch list, and they can not see it is not the threat there looking for,
                    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...-on-watchlist/
                    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10725741/
                    http://boingboing.net/2008/01/10/ano...veyearold.html

                    DO YOU REALLY THINK THE GOVERNMENT TAKE OVER OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS GOING TO BE ANY BETTER?

                    the insurance industry is a cause of a problem that is not being addressed, the things that make up the cost of health care in the fist place, the Government not paying there share in there insurance plans they has all ready set up, and the rules and regulations that have driven up cost, the tort problem of being able to sue for allowing some to die because there dieing, and suing for just suing sake, why it is only insurance, they say,
                    you have deal with the cause of the problem not the results of it,

                    if your losing money in your business, how do you solve the problem? do you look at the empty bank account and cuss the bank or do you get your cost under control and change business practices that resulted in your losses?

                    this health care bill is like cussing the banks because your check bounced,
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: It's not about health care

                      Yes, the government can't do anything right.

                      In a country with over 300 million people, and 300 million ideas of how things should run, you are going have problems.

                      It's interesting how we have come to hate our government more than the insurance companies. A clever tactic.

                      I guess our private contractors did a better job over in Iraq than our armed. government trained forces. When was the last time a private company put a man on the moon or a probe on Mars?

                      Not everything the government touches turns to junk. I think Medicare and VA patients are generally pretty happy.

                      It is immoral to derive a profit from healthcare. Profits are generated by reducing cost and the quickest, easiest way to cut cost is to deny coverage. A CEO doesn't want to meet a room full of investors and tell them how many lives they saved. Those investors want to see a profit.

                      So you have to choose. Profits vs. care.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: It's not about health care

                        Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                        Yes, the government can't do anything right.

                        In a country with over 300 million people, and 300 million ideas of how things should run, you are going have problems.

                        It's interesting how we have come to hate our government more than the insurance companies. A clever tactic.

                        I guess our private contractors did a better job over in Iraq than our armed. government trained forces. When was the last time a private company put a man on the moon or a probe on Mars?

                        Not everything the government touches turns to junk. I think Medicare and VA patients are generally pretty happy.

                        It is immoral to derive a profit from healthcare. Profits are generated by reducing cost and the quickest, easiest way to cut cost is to deny coverage. A CEO doesn't want to meet a room full of investors and tell them how many lives they saved. Those investors want to see a profit.

                        So you have to choose. Profits vs. care.
                        You made a couple interesting points.

                        "I guess our private contractors did a better job over in Iraq than our armed. government trained forces."

                        As of June of last year the Pentagon had 189,678 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan compared to 193,674 private Pentagon contractors. While they are not all doing the same thing they need each other to make it work.

                        "When was the last time a private company put a man on the moon or a probe on Mars?"

                        Obama's current plan is to leave such adventures to the private sector and close down much of NASA.

                        "I think Medicare and VA patients are generally pretty happy."

                        Medicare is in jeopardy of going broke and many Veterans are complaining about long lines and poor care at the VA.

                        We are extremely happy with our Kaiser Plan and doubt the Government could do anything but hurt our plan.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: It's not about health care

                          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                          It is immoral to derive a profit from healthcare.
                          So all our doctors and nurses should stop getting paychecks? After all it would be immoral to profit from providing a valuable service. That's sure to get the best and the brightest to pursue careers in medicine.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: It's not about health care

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            Yes, the government can't do anything right.

                            In a country with over 300 million people, and 300 million ideas of how things should run, you are going have problems.

                            It's interesting how we have come to hate our government more than the insurance companies. A clever tactic.

                            I guess our private contractors did a better job over in Iraq than our armed. government trained forces. When was the last time a private company put a man on the moon or a probe on Mars?

                            Not everything the government touches turns to junk. I think Medicare and VA patients are generally pretty happy.

                            It is immoral to derive a profit from healthcare. Profits are generated by reducing cost and the quickest, easiest way to cut cost is to deny coverage. A CEO doesn't want to meet a room full of investors and tell them how many lives they saved. Those investors want to see a profit.

                            So you have to choose. Profits vs. care.
                            Spiff, we did not elect our insurance companies, but we did elect our legislators and they are not doing what they were supposed to do!

                            Profits vs. care is not that cut and dry. Can we afford to care for those who are here illegally? Do we provide forced care for those who want to die?
                            We are having this discussion prematurely, now is not the time to fix healthcare. We are losing a country and going further into debt with a communist power, fighting wars we cannot pay for and allowing thousands of Americans to die and become disabled. The priorities to "fix" healthcare and hold hearing on steroids in sports and car problems, ahead of saving the country is inexcusable.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: It's not about health care

                              Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                              Yes, the government can't do anything right.

                              It is immoral to derive a profit from health care.
                              So you have to choose. Profits vs. care.

                              "It is immoral to derive a profit from health care."

                              and from that I would guess it is immoral for farmers and grocery stores to make any thing off of food?

                              or it is immoral for the builder and the Realtors to make any money off of housing?

                              I suppose it is immoral for the water company or city to make money off of the water you use?

                              those are things that we need for survival,

                              now some would say a profit is any thing that is above the ability to meet ones needs,
                              The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss http://www.investorwords.com/3880/profit.html
                              so our Government has concluded if one lives carefully that one should be able to make it on a minimum wage, or it would not be called a minimum wage would it?
                              (not real sure but I think it is around $7 to $8 an hr). so if the government has set a minimum wage, than I would think that that would say any thing above that is profit, for an individual is that a reasonable conclusion? or lest even take the term poverty level,
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._United_States
                              The 2008–09 poverty threshold was measured according to the Department of Health and Human Services Poverty Guidelines which are illustrated in the table below. family of 4, in the 48 states, $22,050 Alaska $27,570 Hawaii $25,360
                              which is about $11 and hour, a person can have a house electricity and water, and buy food for that amount and keep warm, if careful,

                              so any one making more than that in heath care is immoral? Have I got that right? (oh and it should be tied to the number of people in the family, because if your single you would have more profit than one who has 6 in the family ),

                              SpiffPeters you say your a manager, so how do you manage the things your responsible for? is it to make a profit? or to just get by at the lowest possible existence?

                              now lest just say your right here, and profits are immoral then I would say profits are immoral ever were, as if you really look at things, we all need each other services to make this world go around, you need the farmer, you need the DR, and the plumber, and the manager of the business,

                              leasts just say your right one more time and profits in health care are immoral, and the government does take over, and like you said the profits in the system seems to be part of the rallying cry for the Government take over, so say the government does take over, and decides that no one can make a profit in heath care, so nothing over $11.00 an hr, are you going to apply to get that new managers job that comes open? are you a moral of enough of an inveigle to work with out profit, do you want your DR, making $11 an hr? If your really that moral you should be willing to work for free, Right?

                              some how it confuses me that it is immoral if the basics of life are not provided to people, at or below cost, but it OK for some of those same people to go out and buy luxuries, with the money they do have. but it is up to some one else to provide the basics of there needs for them, (l live near a small poverty laden town, and know many of the families that are at or below the poverty line (since about 80% are), , but the kids have cell phones, and I pods, and go on every ski trip that is organized, and yet I hear on how they can not afford this and that.)

                              Am I advocating that people should starve or go homeless, NO, but I do not see the problem with them contributing to the cause as well.

                              yes there are probably times that we all may need a helping hand, but to say some one does not deserve a reward for there hard work is nonsense, or that it is immoral. regardless of the profession there in,

                              OK so who gets to decide who is making a profit? you, me, the government, and who gets to make a profit? and how much? Your a manager, you know you can read things in different ways to make some thing look better or worst deepening on how you want it to look,
                              one year, your company may make say, 10% profit, that could be $1000 or it may be $100,000,000 depending on your investment and how it is figured, and say the company has a $100,000,000 in profits some year, that may be 100% or it may be a loss when compared to last year.

                              and your brought up share holders, If you think that these company's are making that much money then I would suggest you buy some stock in these companies and become a share holder that way you could be one of those who are getting filthy rich on the ills of some one else.
                              Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                              attributed to Samuel Johnson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: It's not about health care

                                Originally posted by BHD View Post
                                I suppose it is immoral for the water company or city to make money off of the water you use?
                                Where I live the Northern Westchester Joint Water Works is a government entity that serves the town I live in, which buys its water from New York City. I actually would think it is immoral for NWJWW to make money off of the water, it should operate at cost because it is server local citizens. I don't think it would be wrong for NYC to make money for its residents on water it is supplying to people who don't live there (it shouldn't have any retained earnings, but it is OK to offset the taxes of the NYC residents).

                                It is actually a funny situation, because NYC owns lots of land and reservoirs in the lower hudson valley/upstate NY, so they get a bunch of water which then the local water companies buy back.

                                In simpler circumstances, like where I grew up in Suffolk county, there is a water authority (government run); and I would think that them making any money would be wrong.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X