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  • #16
    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

    Two problems are being discussed here. One is the cost of education - let's start by getting rid of about 90% of the computers in the schools. The only place they need to be is in keyboarding class (the replacement for typing class!) and maybe in the library for research and in a computer lab for the computer classes. We don't need all these school issued laptops for students to take notes on - we all did just fine with pencils and tablets/notebook paper. Kids need to learn how to do this. The thousands upon thousands of dollars school districts spend on purchasing and maintaining this IT infrastructure could be spent on attracting and rewarding better teachers, who for the most part are underpaid. These same teachers could spend their time teaching the three R's instead of working on creative powerpoints to entertain their students with. Most of the kids are busy IM'ing each other in class and not paying attention anyway, due to the distraction of these computers that are supposed to be helping them get ahead. They can learn web design in electives AFTER they learn how to read and write and communicate the old fashioned way.

    The second problem is that kids aren't being encouraged to the trades. This is the fault of the guidance counselors AND the parents. In our generation every parent wants to think of his child as being gifted Ivy League material. The guidance counselors take the path of least resistance and simply tell the students what their parents want them to hear, namely that they should go to a 4 year university. Well, news flash, that isn't the answer for all kids. It is not a matter of intelligence, but more a matter of temperament. Some kids are hands on types and a career as an electronics technician might be much better for him than going to school and studying to be an electrical engineer. Unfortunately, when a kid shows an aptitude for the hands on aspect of something, the parents immediately try to push them into a 4 year degree related to it when the vocational portion might be a better fit for them. Unfortunately, when johnny builds bridges out of toothpicks, he is immediately tagged as a civil engineer, when maybe he should be an ironworker hanging girders.

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    • #17
      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

      Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
      I kind of think there should be a reverse in the educational models trend of focus on the "higher learning" classes.

      I think all high school students should be required to take classes involving:

      Home maintenance/mechanicals. Learn some at the desk basics and some hands on things too. The classes can be just as challenging and be associated with the traditional college required classes. Many don't realize that you can dive into the physics & math of a home plumbing or HVAC system giving kids the double benefit of learning the math and understanding some things about their possible future home.

      The hands on part can greatly build their self esteem also. Alot more feeling of self accomplishment showing your solder joint is holding a test than getting the right answer on a piece of paper. My classes would do both.

      Basic Parenting & Life Skills. So many kids now do not come from what could be considered a good family life so they will have no idea how to do better themselves later on. So the cycle will just perpetuate. Already happening.

      Real World Finances. A class to give them a basic understanding of what's needed versus what's wanted. Understanding the credit scoring system. The fine print of how credit cards work. Banking, checking accounts, and the IRS.

      While I'm sure some of these classes are out there and may be elective, when I begin running things they will be required.

      J.C.
      I would love to live in such a society where adults have some real world basics. Imagine all the abuse that could be avoided, all the dysfunction, all the pitfalls? I think good parents try and impart some of the skill you mention, but from experience I know that for every good thing I've tried to teach my daughters there were two or three bad examples being show on tv and elsewhere. Not easy raising functioning adults.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

        [QUOTE=PlumbingSkool;286846]Mark,

        I 1000000% agree with you!

        I think we all need to train our kids the trades we know.........NOW.!

        Here's proof I am doing my part


        My son (Joseph Jr)

        Cute little guy! He may not want to follow in your foot steps, but at least he will know how to use his hands. Keep up the good work.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post


          My son (Joseph Jr)

          Cute little guy! He may not want to follow in your foot steps, but at least he will know how to use his hands. Keep up the good work.

          Thanks Frankie

          He may not but at least he will always have some knowledge.

          The more knowledge you can give your kids the better is my motto
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          • #20
            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

            I'd say as long as the "No Child Left Behind" is dictating curriculum why not?

            It's not like they are learning anything useful anyway...

            Don't get me wrong here I'm not on a Dubya rant here ranting about him being a "C" student at Yale that majored in party 101. In Connecticut we were blessed with the Connecticut Academic Performance (CAP) Test since the early 1990's. These tests became a monkey on the back of education with 9 full days of the school year devoted to testing in the areas of mathematics, reading, writing, and science. Additional days were devoted to pre-testing to get the kids ready to take the test, and many more to "Teaching The Test."

            Sadly the kids no longer received teaching that taught the skills that would allow them to gather information they were given access to and how to apply that information toward solving a specific problem. The basics that many of us older Americans have were taught and the generations before us as well, are missing. Things like phonics where a person can take either the sounds of the letters in a written word in order to pronounce the word or, take the sounds of a pronounced word to assign the appropriate letters and write the word with reasonable accuracy. The children today are no longer being taught phonics. Instead they are being taught sight word recognition which is a tool that illiterate people have been using for years to get by in a world where reading is required. The same thing is happening with math and science skills.

            In my life so far I have watched our country go from putting a man on the moon down to maintaining a space station in low earth orbit where they have difficulty keeping the toilet and water recycling system operating. With our last president proclaiming the bold new mission of NASA to go back to where we've already been (the moon), and the present president cutting NASA's budget to pieces and proclaiming private industry should take over...

            The kids today are not leaving High School with the skills they need to enter the workforce and provide for themselves. Sadly enough many go on to college running up huge college loan balances training to become future CEO's only to find no need for their talents exist....

            "Welcome to McDonald's may I take your order please?"
            411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

              Originally posted by Redwood View Post
              I'd say as long as the "No Child Left Behind" is dictating curriculum why not?

              It's not like they are learning anything useful anyway...

              Don't get me wrong here I'm not on a Dubya rant here ranting about him being a "C" student at Yale that majored in party 101. In Connecticut we were blessed with the Connecticut Academic Performance (CAP) Test since the early 1990's. These tests became a monkey on the back of education with 9 full days of the school year devoted to testing in the areas of mathematics, reading, writing, and science. Additional days were devoted to pre-testing to get the kids ready to take the test, and many more to "Teaching The Test."

              Sadly the kids no longer received teaching that taught the skills that would allow them to gather information they were given access to and how to apply that information toward solving a specific problem. The basics that many of us older Americans have were taught and the generations before us as well, are missing. Things like phonics where a person can take either the sounds of the letters in a written word in order to pronounce the word or, take the sounds of a pronounced word to assign the appropriate letters and write the word with reasonable accuracy. The children today are no longer being taught phonics. Instead they are being taught sight word recognition which is a tool that illiterate people have been using for years to get by in a world where reading is required. The same thing is happening with math and science skills.

              In my life so far I have watched our country go from putting a man on the moon down to maintaining a space station in low earth orbit where they have difficulty keeping the toilet and water recycling system operating. With our last president proclaiming the bold new mission of NASA to go back to where we've already been (the moon), and the present president cutting NASA's budget to pieces and proclaiming private industry should take over...

              The kids today are not leaving High School with the skills they need to enter the workforce and provide for themselves. Sadly enough many go on to college running up huge college loan balances training to become future CEO's only to find no need for their talents exist....

              "Welcome to McDonald's may I take your order please?"
              I live in CT and the teachers don't teach the subject, they teach to the CAP test. Half the teachers never wanted to teach, they just found job openings.

              I can't justify tax or government money for the space program at this time. The big job now in my opinion is to employ Americans in real jobs to produce high quality consumer goods, and hopefully rebuild our economy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                I see the issue from a different perspective because I generally teach 11th and 12th graders.

                We do a poor job of targeting kids potential earlier in their scholastic careers. Administrators and guidance departments have blinders on for the most part. They are so focused on sending kids to college that they often loose sight of the fact that the vast majority of them will flunk out within the first year and of those that stick with it, a huge portion will major in subjects that are pretty much useless when it comes to employment. The other factor that comes into play is the lack of interest in the trades. My school currently has about 2000 students. Our tech center is separate building from the main high school though it is attached by an enclosed bridge. It is amazing how many students do not even know we are there. They have no idea of the many technical programs we offer from Drafting and Graphic arts, to Machine tool, Automotive, Plumbing and HVAC and many more. The problem as I see it is the lack of support that we get from the trade organizations, local business, manufacturers and the community. Everyone knows where skilled tradesmen come from but nobody wants to support the program. If I could take the time to solicit support and donations I would, and believe me I do whenever I can but it is too much to teach all day and 3 nights a week and still find time to drum up support. We need National and State publicity campaigns to get these kids interested in what are very good job opportunities. We need the PHCC to get off its *** and do something other than kiss the manufacturers asses and sell code books.
                sigpic

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                • #23
                  Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                  Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                  I can't justify tax or government money for the space program at this time. The big job now in my opinion is to employ Americans in real jobs to produce high quality consumer goods, and hopefully rebuild our economy.
                  What does NASA technology do for you?

                  Turn off your TV... The signal arrives by satellite...

                  Throw away your cordless tools... the lightweight rechargeable batteries were developed to drill holes in the moon...

                  Throw away the smoke detectors in your home... Smoke detectors were developed for the SkyLab program...

                  Throw away many of the water filters in use today... Especially those designed to sterilize water with silver and copper ions, and remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor a lot of that technology spun off from NASA...

                  Advances in home insulation and glass that reflects or, absorbes heat based on needs... Yup Nasa...

                  Laser Surgery for atherosclerosis.... Yep Laser technology from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory...

                  Breast Biopsies using a needle.... Yep the CCD's developed for Hubble by NASA's Goddard Flight Center make it possible.

                  CAT Scans and MRI's... The digital image processing developed for Apollo and LandSat programs made it possible...

                  Molds for making artificial limbs... The foam developed for use on the space shuttle tank is now used...

                  Infrared Thermometer... Yep NASA helped....

                  LED's fighting cancer.... Yep LED's used on photosynthesis experiments on the shuttle are now being used for Photodynamic Therapy where tumor fighting drugs are injected into a patient and LED's activate the drugs so only the tumor is destroyed...

                  Want me to keep on going?
                  Better yet just check out these links...
                  Find out how technology developed by NASA gets used...

                  http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html

                  http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

                  Oh I've got a job to go to....
                  Let me plug the address into my GPS....
                  411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                    Originally posted by Redwood View Post
                    What does NASA technology do for you?

                    Turn off your TV... The signal arrives by satellite...

                    Throw away your cordless tools... the lightweight rechargeable batteries were developed to drill holes in the moon...

                    Throw away the smoke detectors in your home... Smoke detectors were developed for the SkyLab program...

                    Throw away many of the water filters in use today... Especially those designed to sterilize water with silver and copper ions, and remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor a lot of that technology spun off from NASA...

                    Advances in home insulation and glass that reflects or, absorbes heat based on needs... Yup Nasa...

                    Laser Surgery for atherosclerosis.... Yep Laser technology from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory...

                    Breast Biopsies using a needle.... Yep the CCD's developed for Hubble by NASA's Goddard Flight Center make it possible.

                    CAT Scans and MRI's... The digital image processing developed for Apollo and LandSat programs made it possible...

                    Molds for making artificial limbs... The foam developed for use on the space shuttle tank is now used...

                    Infrared Thermometer... Yep NASA helped....

                    LED's fighting cancer.... Yep LED's used on photosynthesis experiments on the shuttle are now being used for Photodynamic Therapy where tumor fighting drugs are injected into a patient and LED's activate the drugs so only the tumor is destroyed...

                    Want me to keep on going?
                    Better yet just check out these links...
                    Find out how technology developed by NASA gets used...

                    http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html

                    http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

                    Oh I've got a job to go to....
                    Let me plug the address into my GPS....
                    OKAY - YOU Convinced me to donate to NASA
                    Help With Your Pool Or Spa Pump?►WeT HeaD Pump Repair ► Watch Me On YouTube: Pool & Spa Pump Repair TV
                    New: Pump Repair MagazineNew: Pool & Spa Pump Repair Forums

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                      Originally posted by Redwood View Post
                      What does NASA technology do for you?

                      Turn off your TV... The signal arrives by satellite...

                      Throw away your cordless tools... the lightweight rechargeable batteries were developed to drill holes in the moon...

                      Throw away the smoke detectors in your home... Smoke detectors were developed for the SkyLab program...

                      Throw away many of the water filters in use today... Especially those designed to sterilize water with silver and copper ions, and remove lead, chlorine, bad taste and odor a lot of that technology spun off from NASA...

                      Advances in home insulation and glass that reflects or, absorbes heat based on needs... Yup Nasa...

                      Laser Surgery for atherosclerosis.... Yep Laser technology from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory...

                      Breast Biopsies using a needle.... Yep the CCD's developed for Hubble by NASA's Goddard Flight Center make it possible.

                      CAT Scans and MRI's... The digital image processing developed for Apollo and LandSat programs made it possible...

                      Molds for making artificial limbs... The foam developed for use on the space shuttle tank is now used...

                      Infrared Thermometer... Yep NASA helped....

                      LED's fighting cancer.... Yep LED's used on photosynthesis experiments on the shuttle are now being used for Photodynamic Therapy where tumor fighting drugs are injected into a patient and LED's activate the drugs so only the tumor is destroyed...

                      Want me to keep on going?
                      Better yet just check out these links...
                      Find out how technology developed by NASA gets used...

                      http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html

                      http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

                      Oh I've got a job to go to....
                      Let me plug the address into my GPS....
                      You left off my two favorites, velcro and Tang (not really).

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                        Originally posted by Redwood View Post
                        What does NASA technology do for you?

                        ...Snip...

                        Ok, what has NASA done for us...lately?


                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                          Ok, what has NASA done for us...lately?


                          Dunkin' Donuts Gonzo Waffle Breakfast Sandwich ??

                          It looks as BIG as a PLANET ;-)


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                          • #28
                            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                            I admit the laundry list of useful technology provided by NASA and the space program is not to be ignored, BUT, let's open our eyes to where our country is right now technology and all! Unless we are going to mix up batches of Tang and take a Johnstown dirt nap, we'd better get down to the business at hand, that of employing Americans and breaking the need for goods and loans from communist china.

                            The world has enjoyed the benefits of all our tax dollar research and developement, and who is manufacturing all that technology and selling it back to us?

                            Ask the Americans who have lost their jobs, had their cars reposessed, and are losing their homes, if all those NASA advancements have changed their life for the better? You could stack those advancements tall as a skyscraper but when you were done the foundation they were built on would crumble.

                            The ultimate test of our great technological advancements, is our quality of life and standard of living. I believe we are a non-productive dying society, that is our reality. Imprison the crooks on wallstreet, and in our government, employ Americans, prevent more Americans from dying and getting maimed fighting wars, and then I'll say okay it's time to invest more in NASA. Stop adding to the debt we already can't pay!!!

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                            • #29
                              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                              What happens when you're in a boat with a broken engine and no sail?

                              J.C.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                                What happens when you're in a boat with a broken engine and no sail?

                                J.C.
                                You "tweet" for help?


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