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Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

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  • #31
    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

    Originally posted by tailgunner
    You swim!
    411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

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    • #32
      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

      Originally posted by Redwood View Post
      pic
      Swim faster!

      Look, bottom line is this, why be the guy that installs the toilet, or run those electrical circuits, when there are lines of work out there that enables a person to pay someone else to do it?

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      • #33
        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

        Originally posted by reConx View Post
        IMO 12th grade should not be optional. Our education system is not perfect but the downward trend of US education is worrisome. We are losing ground in secondary education as other countries show bigger gains in achievement/graduations. Poor reading, writing, comprehension and the lack of basic math skills will affect our ability to compete in college or in the trades.
        If we have community colleges which are almost just like 13th & 14th grade; a lot of the students just don't care or are flakes, missing class and assignments. The kids there are getting no more out of it than they would 12th grade. Might as well have them start real life, whatever that might be for them a year earlier. If the kids don't care, they won't get anything out of it.

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        • #34
          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
          Swim faster!

          Look, bottom line is this, why be the guy that installs the toilet, or run those electrical circuits, when there are lines of work out there that enables a person to pay someone else to do it?
          Tailgunner, if that's your bottom line the answer is that there are not enough of those "jobs" whatever they are to enable everyone who wants that for themselves to do that.

          My bottom line is to have a good life, successful marriage filled with diverse memories and children who will also have good lives. I'm sure you have worked in beautiful homes filled with fine things, maybe the homeowner drives a real expensive car and has what appears to be an ideal life, trust an older guy that appearances can be deceiving!

          Don't envy the wealthy or curse the poor, be good with who you are and where you are, because unless you are living within those lives you don't know what problems they have.

          We had a lot of storm damage here yesterday, trees and branches down all over the roads and on houses. The richest person could not pay to get the help they needed when things were this bad and widespread. I had the chainsaws and the knowledge, and was able to help some good neighbors.
          You already have wealth beyond the monetary wealth of guys worth millions but you can't see it! You are young, smart, strong and healthy.

          Look at the mayor of NY Bloomberg, the guy is a billionaire, but he is a wormy little twit. Can you defend yourself, please a woman, secure your environment? It's not about the work or the money, the bottom line is about the LIFE and what you are making of it. Before you waste more of this precious life, back away from the money so you can see the bigger picture.

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          • #35
            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

            i started college at 15. i don't see why others could not as well. of course i had the drive. most kids nowadays don't. i started my first business when i was 10. i'm a little different, just ask my wife.
            the only dumb question is the one that is not asked!

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            • #36
              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

              Originally posted by cpw View Post
              Might as well have them start real life, whatever that might be for them a year earlier. If the kids don't care, they won't get anything out of it.
              I can understand your point of view and don't have the answers but I cannot imagine what quality that "real life" can be in today's world. Dead-end jobs, mediocre pay, rent, car insurance, no money no honey would scare me straight. I am concerned that some of these "seniors" may consider supporting their new "lifestyles" with criminal activity.

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              • #37
                Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                The fine print of how credit cards work. Banking, checking accounts, and the IRS.

                J.C.
                I watched an episode of Frontline in recent years that was about the credit industry. They had a Harvard contract law professor that couldn't understand all the fine print in the credit card contract they asked her to study.

                I think just telling them that if they use a credit card, they'll end up paying a lot more than they realize.

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                • #38
                  Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                  Redwood - as was pointed out recently, NASA just cuts the checks to private industry. NASA doesn't actually do anything other than sign checks.

                  The Saturn V rocket is an icon of my childhood years. For me, growing up during the Apollo program was magic. I could not imagine not going to space, or the moon. But I do think the nation was also galvanized by the Apollo program. Been awhile since we've locked arms and stood as one and aspired to achieve the impossible.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                    My oldest DD did not go to the 12 grade, she needed two classes to graduate and would have had to spend the entire year to meet the attendance requirements as well, so she applied to the school she wanted to go to and applied and went, and got her GED, for there requirements when she met the age requirements, (I think the rule was if you dropped out you had to be 18 to take the test), but she went on to collage instead of 12th grade, and never looked back,

                    she helped me build houses or do remodeling during the summer months any way.
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                      I'm a big fan of the space program, and fully agree that many useul advances are attributable to the effort.

                      However you have to look at the timing. It's a different time today than the 1960s. As I see it, the country would be better off spending money directly to address the problems rather than spending on space and taking the trickle-down benefit. That benefit will be there to be sure... but the benefit per dollar spent will be better if the bucks are targeted. If we need alternate energy, we should spend on alternate energy. If we need to revitalize and re-invent industry, the resources should go directly to that task.

                      When the country gets the ship righted, we can and should then go forward with space exploration programs.

                      As for the notion of optional 12th grade, I vote not only no but h*ll no. I don't think there's ever a good reason to dumb down the general population. The Chinese aren't - they value education and are working to improve the general education level of their population. It's an ever-increasing technological world -- people need to be increasingly educated to understand it, function in it... and be competitive in the world economy. I don't think you can fret about our declining competitiveness on one hand and then cop out and seriously consider cutting basic education on the other. Doesn't seem terribly consistent.

                      Of course, kids that finish their HS requirements early and go off to college are a different story entirely. But there are a lot that need all four years to get through the basic requirements.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                        I'm a big fan of the space program, and fully agree that many useul advances are attributable to the effort.

                        However you have to look at the timing. It's a different time today than the 1960s. As I see it, the country would be better off spending money directly to address the problems rather than spending on space and taking the trickle-down benefit. That benefit will be there to be sure... but the benefit per dollar spent will be better if the bucks are targeted. If we need alternate energy, we should spend on alternate energy. If we need to revitalize and re-invent industry, the resources should go directly to that task.
                        So you don't think that the technology that NASA has developed in its programs has any value in our economic recovery. None of this could be developed into products 'Made in USA" for export into the global economy. None of this can be used to wean us from the petroleum teat, making our own power at the point of use from compact clean sources, cleaning the environment and improving efficient energy usage.

                        We don't need the work being done on solar cells...
                        We don't need the work being done on electrical storage...
                        We don't need fuel cell technology...
                        We don't need energy management systems...
                        We don't need systems that will enable us to build a closed ecosystem...

                        Maybe what we need is to develop more spin offs from the program them produce it here for export to the rest of the world...

                        Instead of shooting ourselves in the foot and dumbing down the nation.

                        We have allowed corporations to give our production away to the cheapest bidder around the globe.

                        Perhaps its time for new companies to step into the void, filling empty factories and putting the laid off american Worker to work, building a new product line. Only this time lets strive to keep it in house and make a profit. We have a bunch of great technology ideas that can be developed for use and production by us to be marketed around the world. Without a technology leg up I doubt we have much to offer unless we start making simple products cheaper here than China and Mexico can...

                        Have you got an idea you need help developing?
                        http://www.spacetechsolutions.com/
                        411 Plumb Appliance Stimulus Package

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                        • #42
                          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                          Originally posted by Redwood View Post

                          We have allowed corporations to give our production away to the cheapest bidder around the globe.
                          oh come on ! That's utter non-sense and you're way off base

                          Corporations have no power JUST KIDDING off course!
                          Supreme Court Blocks Ban on Corporate Political Spending - NYTimes.com

                          Jan 22, 2010 ... Will the Supreme Court's campaign finance decision damage democracy? ...

                          WASHINGTON — Overruling two important precedents about the First Amendment rights of corporations, a bitterly divided Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that the government may not ban political spending by corporations in candidate elections.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                            Originally posted by Redwood View Post
                            So you don't think that the technology that NASA has developed in its programs has any value in our economic recovery. None of this could be developed into products 'Made in USA" for export into the global economy.
                            Whoa! I never said that - you missed my point. It's clear that the space program resulted in many useful technologies. That's not at issue at all.

                            My point was that you will get more bang for your buck if you target the development of specific technologies related DIRECTLY to our immediate needs rather than rely what drops out, somewhat unpredicatably, as by products on the way to the moon (again) or Mars. Would there be useful technologies developed? YES! Would they be developed in the most cost effective way? NO! Am I suggesting that as a nation we *not spend* on developing technology? H*LL NO!! Am I saying that there are more efficient ways to get where we need to be to regain our industrial advantage than a space program? You bet I am.

                            In addition to all the things you mentioned, a space program spends a *lot* of tax dollars on tech, harware development, etc. that has no immediate application OTHER than space. They aren't going to advertise that, any more than the National Labs (and I am an alumnus) brag about all the research that *you* funded that went... nowhere.

                            Please understand that the main motivation for the space race of the 1960s, as well as the space shuttle, was MILITARY. It was not romantic or anything else. In the late 1950s and early 1960s the motivation for the program, even while we were spending a lot on Viet Nam, was that we needed to control space and the moon to prevent the Soviets from having a huge nuclear strategic advantage. The US never admitted this... but it was the case. The uproar about Sputnik was not about national pride. It was about getting strategic assets on orbit where they were, at the time, invulnerable. Even the shuttle is primarily a military system. It DOES have significant value for pure research, but be clear about the real reason the money was spent. It is a way to get assets into orbit quickly. This scared the bejeezus out of the Soviets, and with good reason.

                            Think that's not the case? Look at the NASA funding for the prgrams that have a clear military use as compared to those that are for pure scientific and space research. That will tell you very clearly what the objective of these programs are.

                            Since we no longer have the same sort of military threat driving our decisions, doesn't it make infinitely more sense TODAY to establish as the goals as, say, energy independence or hugely automated (and thus more competitive) industries, and then fund development of THOSE things as the goal? You could then take the fallout from THOSE developments to support going to the moon or Mars, rather than the other way 'round... when you can again afford it. Seems to make more sense to me. Spend your money on what you need... not on something else, while you hope that some of the technological by-products will save your bacon!

                            Agree with you about corporations selling our industry for pennies on the dollar... have expressed it many times. Also agree about not dumbing down the country.

                            But we're not going to fix any of it unless we are smart about spending and ensure that we get max bang for the taxpayer buck. A great example of this is again, the Soviets. They did not have an idealogical change of heart. Between their experience in Afganistan, their inattention to domestic industry, and their blind (and somewhat stupid) devotion to keeping up with US defense expenditures, they essentially went out of business. We can't afford to make the same mistakes. ANd based on our debt picture and what DC is doing... we're racing down the same financial path.

                            Finally... I've used a lot of space-developed tech. I understand your point about the value. Just please understand that it was done to accomplish a whole different objective. Yes there was a lot of valuable technolological fallout. But no one can argue that it was cost-effective! Today, with the significant fiscal problems we have, the fact that we don't have the technological and industrial dominant position we enjoyed in the 1960s, we have to spend in a very targeted way to maximize the return from every dollar.
                            Last edited by Andy_M; 03-15-2010, 10:59 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                              The recent SCOTUS ruling was an extraordinary act of judicial activism. They went well beyond the scope of the original arguments presented to the court and came back with a grand, sweeping decision that overturned over a century of precedent.

                              Chief justice Roberts, despite his claims to honoring, respecting and following precedence during his confirmation hearings, was all to eager to take on this case and open the flood gates for corporations, both here and abroad (foreign owned corporations).

                              It is an all out give away to the monied interests. W's legacy will be sticking the country with a chief justice young enough to possibly live long enough to regret his own decisions.

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                              • #45
                                Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                                ******OFF TOPIC*******

                                I just wanted to interject here and say "Thank You" to all the thread participants.

                                You all might vary on opinions BUT there are a lot of educated people here and I am learning a lot.

                                Thank you guys for taking the time out to make these lengthy replies, I might not agree with all of them but there are some good points on both sides.

                                THANKS !!

                                Okay, I'm done for now

                                *******END OFF TOPIC**********

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