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  • Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

    Have you heard this one?

    Link: 12th grade optional

    What's your thoughts on this?

    Utah State Senator Proposes Making 12th Grade Optional - Political ...

    Feb 16, 2010 ... Chris Buttars says Senior Year is Wasteful and Making it Optional Could Save $60 million.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02...y6213596.shtml - Cached
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  • #2
    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

    I think 11th and 12th grade should only be required if the student isn't enrolled in a trade school or apprenticeship.

    High school has become a teenage wasteland.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

      Figures, "Utah"! Sorry Mark, couldn't help myself.
      I would agree with Spiff if we actually encouraged the Trades. I would still like to see kids graduate knowing basic math, and a little bit about our country, the world, health, math , grammar, and a few other things that would help them through life.

      I see my high school age daughter being taught by teachers who had no intention or desire to teach, they just went where the jobs were. She is forced to take classes in math she will never use and courses in things like web design.

      I still think less education is a bad way to resolve budget issues. Here's a novel idea, how about our politicians figure a way to make America prosperous. Instead of fixing ( that's a joke) healthcare, work to bring businesses and jobs back so unemployment is reduced and the tax base increases. We can't "cut", or reduce our way out of these budget issues, and we can't keep borrowing either.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

        Originally posted by PlumbingSkool View Post
        Have you heard this one?

        Link: 12th grade optional

        What's your thoughts on this?

        Utah State Senator Proposes Making 12th Grade Optional - Political ...

        Feb 16, 2010 ... Chris Buttars says Senior Year is Wasteful and Making it Optional Could Save $60 million.
        www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/16/politics/.../entry6213596.shtml - Cached
        Well it is optional if you want to drop out ...

        For me it was half optional in that I went to school for 2nd-5th periods. One of my friends only needed half the year to graduate.

        The hardest thing about making 12th grade optional and granting a degree is that at least in NYS is you need 4 English credits and 4 social studies credits. Otherwise it adds up to 22 credits. Assuming 8 periods like at my High School, the problem with doing that in three years is:
        - You really only have 21 periods if you take lunch (3 years * 7).
        - Most science classes take 1.5 periods for a lab; and you need 3.
        Thus you basically need to do 23.5 periods worth of work in 21. This is certainly possible if you have cooperative guidance counselors (particularly since scheduling lunch can be optional if you push for it).

        BTW, it also helps that even though they claim you need 2 credits of gym, it is really only 0.5 credits/year.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

          Tell you wut... where I come from, 6th grade was optional. That's 6 more than some of our ex-presidents.
          Git 'er done!
          Americun Dream... Got me a fridge, TV and a wife and all three work.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

            I think it was an attempt by one lone State Senator trying to figure out what to do with a State budget shortfall. He got very little if any backing and is known as a bit of a wacko to boot. However, remember Utah is a rural State where they still have Harvest vacations in many areas because the family all work the farms.

            I have a daughter who is a teacher in Utah and dollar for dollar Utah does pretty good for itself. Utah's SAT results are ranked 20th in the United States (includes DC) yet they are 51st in spending (last place) per child. New York on the other hand is 4th in spending per child and ranks 46th in SATs. Utah spends 36% of what New York spends per child for education.

            California ranks 47th in spending and 34th in SAT scores which is a real drop for California from years ago but I suspect it has a lot to do with the illegal population. I have a son who pulled his kids out of public school to home teach and a daughter who has one in a Charter school and the other is home schooled. In both cases all grades have dramatically increased. I just don't understand why public schools are so messed up?

            From personal experience I can tell you class wise my senior year was a bit of a waste as I had already completed all but three classes. That said the teacher were on strike a good part of my Senior semester. We would show up to homeroom to sign in and then we were suppose to sit in the Auditorium all day without any instruction. Instead we all went to Malibu to do a little surfing. The teachers finally returned about the time the School Board was threatening we would have to repeat the semester.

            Mark
            Last edited by ToUtahNow; 03-14-2010, 04:49 AM.
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

              For me, 9th and 10Th grades were a complete waste of time. Look at the age groups during that period, hormone enraged, brain-dead children that have a hard enough time paying attention to anything. Personally, those two grades should be done away with and instead put all that youthful energy to WORK. Finally when they calm down, they can re-enter the schools and learn something. Sadly there isn't a business dumb enough to hire a 14 year old, not to mention the strict labor laws.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                Great Replies guys,


                I think the whole education system needs to be brought back to what it used to be, this whole no child left behind thing is also destroying the system,
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                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                  Society & parental involvement/guidance can take a large part of the blame.

                  And to my knowledge there has not been any evidence to indicate that the dollar-per-child ratio has anything to do with success rates. In short, the U.S. spends more per child in education than any other country while our kids test below dozens of other countries.

                  The stupidest thing I keep seeing and hearing is wanting more funds for education. Think about it. We keep spending more and getting less. The funds are not the problem.

                  And while I'm ranting another thing pissing me off is buying new text books for 1st-5th grades. The foundation hasn't changed in 50 or more years. Your kids will get the same benefit from English & Math books first published in the 1960's. History and Science books from then would probably be fine too for building the foundation. Some addendums would have to be made.

                  And in a few years.....there won't be any books. Only computers.....

                  One thing I think should be done is that if you are an elected official then you are REQUIRED to send your children to public school from 1st-12th grade. Many local and national officials have their children in private school, so they have no real stake in the performance of the system-except maybe to get re-elected.

                  As far as trades in school. I've never met any parent that has hopes and dreams for their child to become a carpenter, plumber, electrician etc. NEVER.

                  Every one of them encourages their kids to go to college for a 4 year degree irregardless of the reasoning behind it. Perfectly fine. I just don't see the support of adults for these occupations.

                  And many hide in my opinion behind "They can do what they want as long as they're happy, working towards something, and contributing to the world."

                  BS That's just to make them feel better. Most parents either consciously or subconsciously will guide there children to what they feel is better for them. And the encouragement is always toward 4 year college at a minimum.

                  Trades do not get any support.

                  J.C.
                  Straight out of College my daughter got a position teaching with an Elementary school in a very poor part of Utah. Before each semester she would have to do home visits with every family to tell them what was expected of the family and their child. One family was even living in a car the area was so poor. Some listened, some would not even turn off the TV. She knew at the beginning of the semester which home would have support and which would not.

                  As for the Trades, I think we are going to be in a lot of trouble if we don't find a way to get kids interested in the Trades. I tried like heck to get one of mine to take over the family business and none of them wanted it.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post

                    As for the Trades, I think we are going to be in a lot of trouble if we don't find a way to get kids interested in the Trades. I tried like heck to get one of mine to take over the family business and none of them wanted it.

                    Mark
                    Mark,

                    I 1000000% agree with you!

                    I think we all need to train our kids the trades we know.........NOW.!

                    Here's proof I am doing my part


                    My son (Joseph Jr)










                    Attached Files
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                    • #11
                      Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                      The only people here that kill the trades are the tradesmen. The whole industry brought this labor issue onto themselves.

                      Think about it, and I'll use my own experience as an example:

                      To just earn an electrical license, it requires the following:
                      $2,000 up front for tools, bits, and battery equipment.
                      A five year commitment.
                      $1,000/ year minimum for NEC classes. (x4 years)
                      $226 to take the test.
                      $129 to get the license once passed.
                      Plus there are renewal classes to pay for (I'm trying to find the fee for that)
                      $78 for renewal fee
                      Oh and by the way, starting wage is $9.00 / hr, minus taxes and health insurance (Required by Mass. Law)

                      So thousands up front, low pay, dirty + noisy working environments, a commitment on par with military enlistments, and carry the mental burden of knowing there are those whom spent the same amount of time in a clean classroom, then come out with an engineering degree earning far more.

                      Would you take this job?


                      Edit:

                      Cute kid PS. Must have entered it while I was typing/ranting.
                      My suggestion? Get that kid into the Navy to learn Thermal and Hydrodynamics.
                      Last edited by tailgunner; 03-14-2010, 12:13 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                        .... parental involvement/guidance can take a large part of the blame.
                        Nail on the head. Too many parents treat school as a daycare center.

                        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing
                        ...irregardless
                        Regardless.

                        Tailgunner - I agree that the barrier for entering the trades is artificially high. Every profession has a barrier to weed out the wannabees, but in most instances the rewards are substantial. I think the trades should have the same level of access to the high schools as the military. Set up a table in the lunch room and recruit the guys that know they don't want to go to college but want to do something with their life.
                        Last edited by SpiffPeters; 03-14-2010, 12:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                          Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                          The only people here that kill the trades are the tradesmen. The whole industry brought this labor issue onto themselves.

                          Think about it, and I'll use my own experience as an example:

                          To just earn an electrical license, it requires the following:
                          $2,000 up front for tools, bits, and battery equipment.
                          A five year commitment.
                          $1,000/ year minimum for NEC classes. (x4 years)
                          $226 to take the test.
                          $129 to get the license once passed.
                          Plus there are renewal classes to pay for (I'm trying to find the fee for that)
                          $78 for renewal fee
                          Oh and by the way, starting wage is $9.00 / hr, minus taxes and health insurance (Required by Mass. Law)

                          So thousands up front, low pay, dirty + noisy working environments, a commitment on par with military enlistments, and carry the mental burden of knowing there are those whom spent the same amount of time in a clean classroom, then come out with an engineering degree earning far more.

                          Would you take this job?
                          1st year journeyman here makes about $14.00 an hr. I've worked with journeymen who made more an hr. than master electricians. The reason was senority, but still made more $.
                          Last edited by James P; 03-14-2010, 12:27 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                            Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                            The only people here that kill the trades are the tradesmen. The whole industry brought this labor issue onto themselves.

                            Think about it, and I'll use my own experience as an example:

                            To just earn an electrical license, it requires the following:
                            $2,000 up front for tools, bits, and battery equipment.
                            A five year commitment.
                            $1,000/ year minimum for NEC classes. (x4 years)
                            $226 to take the test.
                            $129 to get the license once passed.
                            Plus there are renewal classes to pay for (I'm trying to find the fee for that)
                            $78 for renewal fee
                            Oh and by the way, starting wage is $9.00 / hr, minus taxes and health insurance (Required by Mass. Law)

                            So thousands up front, low pay, dirty + noisy working environments, a commitment on par with military enlistments, and carry the mental burden of knowing there are those whom spent the same amount of time in a clean classroom, then come out with an engineering degree earning far more.

                            Would you take this job?
                            I don't know the average cost of college is about $12,000 per year. If you try to work a job at the same time to pay for things like housing, transportation and food it would likely take you at least 5-years to get your Engineering Degree ($60,000). The average pay for a Mechanical Engineer is $84,000 in California.

                            On the other hand, a first year Union Plumbing Apprentice in California makes around $12.00 an hour and gets paid while in his apprenticeship. After 4-years he becomes a Journeyman making $80,000 per year and no student loans to pay off. It seems the trade is a better place to be if you don't mind being in the ditches.

                            Mark
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Should We Make 12th Grade Optional?

                              IMO 12th grade should not be optional. Our education system is not perfect but the downward trend of US education is worrisome. We are losing ground in secondary education as other countries show bigger gains in achievement/graduations. Poor reading, writing, comprehension and the lack of basic math skills will affect our ability to compete in college or in the trades.

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