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Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

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  • #46
    Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
    Because the United States is the only industrialized nation that doesn't have universal health.
    There is no causal relationship between the existence or lack of existence of social medicine, which you euphemistically refer to as 'universal health', and the tie between health insurance and employment. Countries that have social programs for healthcare didn't have it tied to employment before the advent of their socialized systems.

    My point was that in letting health insurance become an employment issue, we created many more problems than we solved.

    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
    The United States does not consider health care a right.
    Sure it does. The nature of the Constitution is that we have certain rights that can only be abridged by law. To my knowledge, there is no law on the books that says I can't have health care.

    However, the Government is under no obligation to fund my rights. I have the second amendment right to bear arms. Is the Government obligated to pay for my weapons or to subsidize my acquisition?

    Your statement is an example of an emotional argument used to justify moves in the direction of a socialized system. It's a huge and irrational leap to say that the Government is obligated to provide a service simply because people have a right to it.

    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
    If you do think health care is a right then you don't believe we should be paying taxes....
    Sorry, this argument makes little sense to me. Rights don't have anything to do with taxes. The Government is obligated to protect my rights by not passing any laws that abridge them. It is NOT obligated to provide or pay for my enjoyment of my guaranteed rights through taxation! The issue of providing services is irrelevant to the question of rights.

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    • #47
      Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

      Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
      Why should employers have anything to do with health insurance? The whole screwball scheme is responsible for a large part of the problem. Why don't we tie car insurance to employment? When you got laid off you would have to get on a car COBRA plan to keep driving... or if you were self employed you would pay twice as much. Stupid, no? But this is all ok for health insurance?

      The United States is, I believe, the only industrialized country that ties health insurance to the workplace.

      I am 100% in support of healthcare reform. Just, not this one. The proponents are trying to overcome the negative sentiments about this bill by selling a few features... no denials for pre-existing conditions and the like. Of course, there are loopholes in that! And, such needed rules - and others to end insurance company abuses - could have easily been enacted without all the rest of the Obaminable nonsense.

      I'm hoping that there are severe repercussions for all this come election time. But Americans have proven that they like the taste of kool-aid. After all, we re-elected Bush 43.
      You and I see this from the same perspective. I believe widespread employer based health insurance was instituted in the 60's with a very beneficial tax position for businesses. (I need to find it. )

      Then a few things happened. People began overusing the benefit, premiums kept getting higher and higher, and I think the tax benefit got to a point of being no benefit but now burden as the market could not support the "business cost" associated with it.

      J.C.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

        Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
        I got one answer out of at least 7+ people. (Frankiarmz)

        Anyone else?

        Thanks.

        J.C.
        JC, I know I skirted you question. I thought about answering, but honestly don't see any positives. There are some features that seem like they might be potentially positive, but I see them as vaguely worded, imprecise, and probable fodder for loopholes and abuse. Moreover, focusing on the trees rather than the forest doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
          Actually Franki, while China is clearly the single largest foreign holder of our debt, they are not the only nation. Japan isn't far behind yet no one ever mentions them, and last I checked they were not a communist country. Matter of fact, communist China holds a small percentage of our national debt. So to be fair, lets frame the issue in a fair an balanced fashion; most of our debt is held by democratic nations.

          Do you know how much of our debt communist China holds? Do you know how democratic Japan holds? Do you know what democratic nations holds the single largest amount of our debt?

          We're tacitly supporting the Islamic terrorists when we buy SUV's and other gas hog vehicles. Buying a gas sipping vehicle, riding a bike or mass transit contributes to the war effort. The less commerce we do with the middle east, the less money they have to wage war against us. Pretty simple concept.

          I'm not advocating like some in the past the debts do not matter. And while I agree that our exporting of democracy has been far more costly in treasury and blood than those who cheered us into it admitted up front, the fact of the matter is we are stuck there and there is not reasonable way out in the near future. Obama gets skewered because he doesn't use the word terrorist or war on terror as often as the last guy in office. Imagine what the repubs would not only say, but do if Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan now. Wouldn't be pretty.
          Spiff, I can't convince you that I can vote for and disagree with the dems, watch Fox News and not be a hannity/beck supporter, guess I am a contradiction of sorts. I will include democratic nations who hold our debt in my future rants, but I think it's disgraceful and self destructive that our country was allowed to go into debt period.

          I agree with you about our thirst for gas and suv's, unfortunately there again our legislators along with "we the people" did nothing to reduce the need. We and they had more than thrity years to prepare, legislate smaller more efficient cars and alternative energy, but here we are screwed.

          I really don't care what the republicans say regarding the troops coming home. Do we want more brave young Americans killed and wounded or not?
          What constitutes "reasonable"? I think it's reasonable for the fed to stop borrowing and stop spending money it does not have. I think building clean, safe manufacturing plants here to produce windmill parts, solar panels and consumer goods so we can employ Americans is more reasonable than to wait for the crash. I voted for change, not behavior that will either upset republicans over healthcare, or placate them over the wars.

          Can we afford to keep doing the same things, and expecting different results? The healthcare bill is change in some ways, but the increased taxes are nothing new. The wars and borrowing, and loss of jobs, too much of the same and for too long. Change the game, up the ante, but don't keep doing the same destructive things and think of them as reasonable.
          Last edited by Frankiarmz; 03-26-2010, 12:20 PM.

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          • #50
            Re: Health care IS NOW LAW!!!

            now it looks like ever family will be forced to buy, a policy, and from the story below it says,
            "According to the CBO, by 2016, the cheapest family health care plan that Americans will be required to buy under the law will cost $12,000 per year. The average family plan will cost $15,200. A family of four making $88,201 per year—or more than 400 percent of the poverty level—will not receive any federal subsidy to purchase such a plan. They will pay taxes, however, to subsidize the health care purchases of people earning less than 400 percent of poverty."
            yes I know there may be some tax credit to help pay for it, but how are the tax credits going to work will they just be a refund in April or May, in your tax refund?
            will they be 100%,
            A few weeks ago some one asked can you live on $19,000 a year, well if you have pay out $1000 a month for the mandated cheap plan and wait until your Tax return to be re payed with the tax credit, how will a family live for that year? what if it is not a 100% credit, and you have to pay out a few hundred or thousand extra on top of the refund, and if it is only to pay 60% of the cost (as was in that post on 5 key things about health care, reason number 4 said 60% coverage) what is that family of four going to use to pay those bills with?

            and look at the last line of the story,
            According to the Treasury Department the Medicare system faced about $37 trillion in unfunded liabilities before Sunday’s bill was passed.
            the only answer I can see is to tax and tax and tax some more, and to cut the current quality of care and availability to the care, we have now to pay for this take over,


            http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63118
            Congress Votes to Socialize Health Care in United States
            Monday, March 22, 2010
            By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief




            House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) listens to House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) during a health care news conference on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. in October 2009. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)(CNSNews.com) - The U.S. House of Representatives voted 219-212 on Sunday night to socialize health care in the United States, making the government the paymaster of, and giving it sweeping regulatory authority over, the U.S. health care industry which represents one-sixth of the U.S. economy.

            The legislation also enacts a dramatic and unprecedented diminution in the individual liberty of citizens. It does so by mandating that all Americans buy a government-approved health care plan while redistributing wealth on a massive scale by promising annual federal insurance subsidies to all Americans who earn less than 400 percent of the poverty level, which is currently $88,200 for a family of four.

            The new health-care system the legislation will put in place over the next four years amounts to a massive and mandatory new welfare program that will ensnare middle-class and middle-aged Americans in dependency on the federal government for a vital element of their lives.

            The health care legislation approved by Congress Sunday gives the administration sweeping power to regulate health insurance companies. These regulations will include instructing insurance companies on what benefits they must provide and what rates they can charge.

            The mandate that all Americans buy health insurance represents a fundamental change in the relationship between individuals and the federal government in the United States. According to the Congressional Budget Office, this is the first time in the history of the country that the federal government has ever ordered American citizens to buy any good or service.

            Many members of Congress, including former Senate Judiciary Chairman Orrin Hatch (R.-Utah), have argued that this unprecedented mandate is unconstitutional. Hatch told CNSNews.com last fall that if the federal government could constitutionally force individuals to buy health insurance there wasn’t anything the federal government could not force individuals to do.

            Many congressional advocates of the individual mandate interviewed by CNSNews.com over the past year could not say where the Constitution authorized the federal government to force people to buy health insurance.

            The final votes that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and President Obama needed to push the legislation through the House came on Sunday when Rep. Bart Stupak (D.-Mich.) and a small group of other Democrats abandoned their insistence that congressional health care legislation include language that would prevent any federal dollars from going to any health care plan that covers abortion.

            Instead, Stupak and his allies accepted President Obama’s promise that he would sign a draft Executive Order that simply instructs federal agencies to set accounting rules for how the health care plans that people purchase with federal funds will theoretically “segregate” the federal money they receive from other dollars that would theoretically pay for abortions.

            President Obama’s draft Executive Order speaks of this “segregation” mechanism as if it were the effective equivalent of the Hyde Amendment. However, the Hyde Amendment prohibits any federal funds funneled through various annual appropriations bills from going to any health plan that covers abortion. The health care bill that Congress passed Sunday and the Executive Order that Obama is promising to sign will allow federal funds to go to health care plans that cover abortion. It will only theoretically “segregate” these fungible funds from other dollars going to the same insurance plans that pay for abortion.

            Five self-professedly “pro-life” Democratic congressmen joined Stupak at a Sunday press conference to say that they would vote for the health care plan after President Obama promised he would sign this Executive Order dealing with the accounting mechanisms that will be used by abortion-providing, federally subsidized health insurance plans. These congressmen were Rep. Marcy Kaptur (Ohio), Rep. Kathy Dahlkemper (Pa.), Rep. Steve Driehaus (Ohio), Rep. Alan Mollohan (W.V.), Rep. Nick Rahal (W.V.)

            According to the CBO, by 2016, the cheapest family health care plan that Americans will be required to buy under the law will cost $12,000 per year. The average family plan will cost $15,200. A family of four making $88,201 per year—or more than 400 percent of the poverty level—will not receive any federal subsidy to purchase such a plan. They will pay taxes, however, to subsidize the health care purchases of people earning less than 400 percent of poverty.

            According to the Treasury Department the Medicare system faced about $37 trillion in unfunded liabilities before Sunday’s bill was passed.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

              Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
              I got one answer out of at least 7+ people. (Frankiarmz)

              Anyone else?
              I didn't answer because I am not hugely supportive of this bill in particular but stand on the side of it because it is the only legislation our politicians allowed to be offered. In the absence of anything else I'll take it. The House bill was significantly better but it was never even allowed debate in the senate.

              Negatives: It does nothing to control costs. Insurance companies can continue to raise premiums. It did not address the issue that health care in the US is prohibitively expensive.

              It forces people deal with private for profit health insurance. These companies have been working for years to get every dime they can out of the American people and our governments response is to give them more customers.

              For the positives i think enough other posters have covered them that I need to type them out again.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                I've never encountered anything that did not have both positives and negatives.

                So I'll post a question for those that seem to be very much in favor of the reform. (Skool, Redwood, Spiff, James)

                What are the negatives associated with the Bill/Law?


                And on the other side, those that seem to be very against the Bill/Law (NH, Utah, Frankie, others) what are the positives?

                I'm asking for a couple of reasons...

                J.C.
                There are a lot of positives to the Bill just like there are a lot of positives to a lot of things we do. Health care, not just emergency care will be available to most. Those with pre-existing conditions wi8ll have less problems getting covered.

                The problem is the method the Bill was forced through, the lies and backroom deals that happened to get the Bill through, the debt it will add to our already burdened system, the fact the Bill was more important than job creation, the fact no consideration was given to the additional burden to hospitals, clinics and doctor's office, the fact rates will increase even though we were told they would not, the fact that this Bill will cost jobs, the fact this will increase the cost of doing business, the fact that it will take $500,000,000,000 from Medicaid while adding 16,000,000 more to the system, the fact that we were told even though we were against the Bill we will learn to like it and so on and so on and so on.

                If our economy was flush I don't know that we would be having the same discussion.

                Mark

                BTW: Is anyone else wondering how the 17,000,000 who will still not be covered or the 12,000,000 illegals who already over-burden our system feel about the new Health Care Bill? I just hope they don't hold it against the 30,000,000 who will be added to the system because of the new Bill.
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                  Many members of Congress, including former Senate Judiciary Chairman Orrin Hatch (R.-Utah), have argued that this unprecedented mandate is unconstitutional. Hatch told CNSNews.com last fall that if the federal government could constitutionally force individuals to buy health insurance there wasn’t anything the federal government could not force individuals to do.
                  That is a very strong stance Mr. Hatch has taken against his own idea. In future negotiations with Orin Hatch what face should people be talking too?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                    The unfunded liability of $37 trillion has been around for about the past five or six years. SSI is 'only' $11 trillion, yet that is the one our leaders talked about in 06-07.

                    There are technologies available today that would radically change the way our economy works and help our national security.

                    Instead of having coal fired power plants, we could have smaller, closer to home solar, geothermal, tidal, wind powered power plants. We could turn our houses into independent power plants producing more power than the average household could consume in a day.

                    Imagine plugging your car in every other night or so to charge it up. No gas station. No electric bill, no heating bill. And any excess power you generate could be sold back to the utility at wholesale prices.

                    Think of the jobs needed to create and install all this new hardware. This would be a huge project. Huge. And a money maker for the right persons.

                    Unfortunately this model would put coal miners out of business and coal mine owners would suddenly see their revenue cease.

                    But big oil and coal have a vested interest in the status quo.

                    Franki - I do believe you are a moderate and that you don't subscribe to most of the hyperbolic rhetoric put forth by the majority of the pundits on FOX News. We agree in general about most things.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                      Mark, I don't think the discussion would be nearly as tense if the economy was good.

                      Spiff, I do think of the things you mentioned regarding alternative energy and how it would make for better living. I just don't have much hope that either party can deliver on such a bright future. Just a couple of days ago I heard that wording was left out of a green energy bill that would have required "made in America only" for wind and solar energy parts. How does something like that happen in this economy? We need all the jobs we can get right now and this great opportunity was missed, inexcusable.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                        Just for the record, the number of illegals is currently estimated to be around 10.5 million. It has gone down in the past year or so. Not necessarily because of any action taken on behalf of our government. As the comedian Paul Rodriguez once said, we shouldn't worry about illegals coming to America. We should worry when they want to leave.

                        And we must not exclude Chuck Grassley's complaints about the individual mandate. After all, he was one of the original proponents of the mandate.

                        Personally I think it's necessary. However I do think a concession should be made were as a person should be entitled to opt out of health insurance individual mandate. If they choose to not purchase health insurance, fine. They simply will have to pay whatever the doctors, hospitals and pharma want to charge them, and they will be exempt from being able to file bankruptcy due to medical bills. It isn't fair to the rest of the risk pool to have someone jump in after the fact.

                        Conversely, someone that has been covered for most of their life but lost their insurance for economic reasons (job loss for instance) should be exempt from pre-existing condition clauses.
                        Last edited by SpiffPeters; 03-26-2010, 05:10 PM. Reason: cpw caught my slip

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                          However I do think a concession should be made were as a person should be entitled to opt out of health care. If they choose to not purchase health insurance, fine.
                          I don't get why people seem to think "Health Insurance" is the same as "Health Care."

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                            Originally posted by cpw View Post
                            I don't get why people seem to think "Health Insurance" is the same as "Health Care."
                            The masses think that having health insurance ensures good health care. Thus one in the same.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                              I just want to say that thus far this has been a great topic and everyone that has contributed to it has had some very valid points and I would also like to congratulate all of you for keeping it civil and thoughtful.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Healthcare IS NOW LAW!!!

                                Originally posted by cpw View Post
                                I don't get why people seem to think "Health Insurance" is the same as "Health Care."
                                Thanks for catching that. We have the best health care technology in the world. Our health care rationing system is the problem.

                                And I agree that people think it is the doctors responsibility to make them healthy after years of abusing their bodies. There is no silver bullet, there is no magic elixir that will melt away fat and cholesterol, there is no fountain of youth. All you can do is treat your body like the high performance machine it is, take care of it.

                                You want to opt out of the individual mandate, go right a head. But you're on your own and you will not be exempt from filing bankruptcy over medical bills.
                                Last edited by SpiffPeters; 03-26-2010, 05:15 PM.

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