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  • #16
    Re: Oil Drilling

    If the cost of oil is cut, more money will be available for other things, the economy really started to falter when the oil rose and the price was getting above $100 barrel,
    If you want to kill off business and people who have no choice but to drive, raise the price of groceries and ever other need raise the price of oil, in other words drive us in to a 1930 type depression, (at least from where we are now economic),

    I am all for alternate energies, but the grid can only stand about stand about 25% to 30% wind, and it needs some type of back up to be reliable,
    solar is so high dollar, that is really is not currently feasible in pay back terms, except on a very small scale,
    Bio fuels people complain about "Food for fuel" not a true statement unless your a cow, 90% of the corn crop is not people food any way,
    If you talk bio diesel, it is made with oil seeds, "Food" normally, and yes there are co products that are food or feed from most bio type fuels, as well, but that is a different discussion.

    for the time being OIL is what we need to run the economy and the more of our own we use the better off we will be, rather than send our moneys over seas, as it would support the oil field workers and the machinery that it needs to function, many many energy jobs were lost when the economy crashed,

    I would love to see other methods or better methods of producing power, but currently coal and oil are king, and until other methods and ways are found to produce energy, at an affordable cost, to the nation, and to people.
    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
    attributed to Samuel Johnson
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Oil Drilling

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      I agree that something needs to be done, but exactly what and how is debatable. I would consider opening the federal reserves and lowering the price per gallon to $.50. Sounds insane, but you would enable a lot more folks to travel and find work, or continue to work and spend money throughout the economy and not just on gasoline! While the price is lowered and people can commute, build manufacturing plants to employ Americans who would make low cost solar panel and wind turbine parts.
      We certainly don't have that much market power with the strategic petroleum reserve, and even if we drill everything gas will not go to $.50. I don't think the problem here is with absolute prices, it is with rapid changes. Changes in either direction that are precipitous are not going to be good for the economy, stability is key. There are lots of businesses that depend on petroleum pricing (gas stations, heating oil, manufacturers who enter futures contracts, etc.).

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Oil Drilling

        found this interesting, (I hope this is a crude Aprils fools joke) I have heard rumors of this happing, but have not seen any thing lately,

        Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is plotting a new massive job-killer that the American people can’t afford
        Obama to Crush Economy with Massive CO2 Taxes as Early as Next Week


        Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is plotting a new massive job-killer that the American people can’t afford
        Obama to Crush Economy with Massive CO2 Taxes as Early as Next Week
        By Fred Dardick Thursday, April 1, 2010
        Abandoning all loyalty to the democratic processes this nation holds dear, President Obama has made the decision that getting energy tax legislation through Congress with the approval of the American people is just too much of a pain to bother with. Instead he will have the EPA declare as early as next week that CO2 is a dangerous global warming gas and will start regulating its emissions immediately.

        Obama’s promise to open up vast stretches of ocean on the East Coast and Gulf of Mexico to energy exploration is simply a ruse to soften up the public for soon to be announced draconian regulations.

        Similar to how Obama used the $50 million dollar study on healthcare companies competing across state lines to sell ObamaCare as a bipartisan bill, his recent decree allowing energy companies to explore (not drill, not produce energy from … just explore) new stretches of ocean for oil is also meant to be a trivial, yet impressive enough sounding carrot for conservatives right before he stuffs his Marxist trash down their throats.



        House Minority Leader John Boehner responded to Obama by saying “At the same time the White House makes today’s announcement, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is plotting a new massive job-killer that the American people can’t afford.”

        Every American who doesn’t live in a technology adverse commune in California will now pay even more of their hard earned cash to the federal government for absolutely no good reason.

        Put simply, it means $8 for a gallon of gas and 2-3 times higher electricity bills. It also means the loss of millions more sorely needed jobs as businesses are hit with higher operating costs and the transfer of whatever remains of our manufacturing sector to China where energy is cheaper and they aren’t so concerned about CO2.
        In the first week alone, American businesses estimated that ObamaCare will cost them $14 billion. By most estimates this latest Obama nightmare will be far more expensive and may literally destroy the economy in less than 20 years.

        All because of climate science that has been clearly exposed as inaccurate and untrustworthy. Obama may or may not be a communist plant sent to destroy America, but he sure is acting like one. http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/21566
        Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
        attributed to Samuel Johnson
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Oil Drilling

          Originally posted by BHD View Post
          If the cost of oil is cut, more money will be available for other things, the economy really started to falter when the oil rose and the price was getting above $100 barrel,
          I don't see any evidence for there being the causal relationship you suggest. Oil is a commodity and its pricing has historically risen and fallen just like all other commodities. It's not the cause of the recent economic problems, it's a symptom. If it was a cause we would expect that there would have been some recovery when the price dipped, but we didn't see that.

          If anything, rising energy costs has stimulated certain areas. For example many companies that operate large data centers are starting to realize that energy cost to operate those facilities are huge overhead cost drivers. A very hot topic now amongst the large server manufacturers is overall datacenter efficiency. Processor developers (IBM, Intel, AMD, Fujitsu and Oracle/Sun) are heavily focused on improving the ratio of computer performance per watt. This is leading to chips with more sophisticated onboard power management as well as different processor architectures that are targeted at being more efficient when applied to specific tasks.

          Of course we're also all familiar with Tesla Motors, the hybrid cars, the Chevy Volt, etc. It's unfortunate indeed that the commercially success part of this picture - the hybrid vehicles being sold in the US - are largely being being enjoyed by the Japanese. But that doesn't detract from the fact that fuel cost has given rise to an entirely new class of automobile.

          Solar, green/clean tech companies and other alternate energy firms are some of the very few newindustries that are actually starting up, getting private funding, and creating new tech jobs. For instance, Bloom Energy, which you all read about, has very promising new fuel cell technology, has gotten substantial funding and is hiring people to improve and cost reduce their units, which are already in use in some commercial applications. But private funding for these ventures is just not there on the scale needed. This needs public funding, just like the Military or the space program does. And it's far more important to the country overall than health care reform.

          It's certainly true that increased fuel costs are an overhead expense for most all businesses. However, the cost of electrical power as well as motor fuel in the United States is well among the lowest anywhere in the world. It's quite a stretch to conclude that oil prices are responsible for the economic problems we face, in light of the decline of US manufacturing, support of Chinese and other foreign manufacturing by their governments to increase their advantage, banking problems due to unscrupulous lending, the personal and commercial credit situation, stock market over-valuation, etc.


          Originally posted by BHD View Post
          If you want to kill off business and people who have no choice but to drive, raise the price of groceries and ever other need raise the price of oil, in other words drive us in to a 1930 type depression, (at least from where we are now economic),
          With all respect, this is more of an emotional argument than a real one. Between the Bush tax cuts and Obama's stimulus, we have 10 years of evidence that says marginal increases in disposable income hasn't helped the economy much if at all. In fact, it's hurt - contributing significantly to the national debt, which in turn has lowered the level of government services we enjoy and impacted the future of social security, medicare and other important programs. A marginal increase in fuel costs will the same magnitude effect, although opposite in direction - as a modest tax increase - that being a small negative effect on the economy as a whole, comparable to the positive effect felt by the tax cut or stimulus spending. These things work pretty much the same both ways.

          Remember that we have one of the the lowest unsubsidized costs of motor fuel in the industrialized world. We heard the same cries of anguish when OPECers caused fuel prices to top $1, then $2. then $3..... all the way to nearly $5. Until recently, the largest segment of the domestic auto industry was SUVs and trucks. This doesn't really support the notion that folks, for the most part, are stretched to the limit regarding their motor fuel expenses.

          The fact is that the United States is the spendiest consumer society in the world, fueled by relatively large disposable income and (until recently) very cheap credit. We pay very low (by world standards) prices for energy (and food, too). Does every high school kid really need a cell phone and it's monthly bill? Do we all need luxury cars, designer jeans and $100 sneakers? I sold both my expensive luxury cars two years ago and now drive a car that gets 31 mpg. I enjoyed my fancy rides. miss them, and could afford the dollar cost -- but not the cost to society.

          All that aside, I wouldn't have any problem at all with a fuel tax credit for small businesses or low income persons to ease the pain of those that would be disproportionately hurt by an increase in fuel costs or the related inevitable increase in food costs.


          Originally posted by BHD View Post
          I am all for alternate energies, but the grid can only stand about stand about 25% to 30% wind, and it needs some type of back up to be reliable, solar is so high dollar, that is really is not currently feasible in pay back terms, except on a very small scale, Bio fuels people complain about "Food for fuel" not a true statement unless your a cow, 90% of the corn crop is not people food any way, If you talk bio diesel, it is made with oil seeds, "Food" normally, and yes there are co products that are food or feed from most bio type fuels, as well, but that is a different discussion.
          This has been the argument for 40 years. It's exactly why we need to proactively get after alternate energy at the national level. I think of it as similar in many ways to the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo program. Without a concerted coordinated effort, we would have never gotten off the ground, let alone walked on the moon.

          Your comments address the current state of the art. The private sector will not address the infrastrucure requirements, nor do they have the money or ability to take the risk associated with fundamental research into new technologies. Moreover, a scattergun approach such as we'll see if this is left to the private sector isn't likely to result in a standard and orderly transition to alternate energy implementation on the national scale. This isn't going to happen overnight, it is at least a 10 to 20 year project. But if we don't start, it will never happen. And starting means that we have to spend money on it - there is no free lunch. THe problem is that we should have started 30-40 years ag0 - then we wouldn't be in this pickle. If we start now, we won't see the benefit for 10-20 years.... a long time.... but I feel 100% sure that by then the energy problems we face will make today's look like a slice of pie.

          Originally posted by BHD View Post
          for the time being OIL is what we need to run the economy and the more of our own we use the better off we will be, rather than send our moneys over seas, as it would support the oil field workers and the machinery that it needs to function, many many energy jobs were lost when the economy crashed,

          I would love to see other methods or better methods of producing power, but currently coal and oil are king, and until other methods and ways are found to produce energy, at an affordable cost, to the nation, and to people.
          That's exactly the point. You aren't going to see alternative energy until it becomes economically viable compared to fossil fuel, and it isn't going to become economically viable until a suitable approach or system of approaches can be implemented on a national scale comparable to fossil fuel. It's a chicken-and-egg situation. Cost-competeitive alternate energy is not going to bootstrap itself into existence. It needs public support (money - not lip service) to make it happen. It's been getting lip service for 40 years with no real results. If we wait for the cost of fossil fuel to explode, which it will, THEN you are REALLY going to have an economic armageddon.

          For the time being we HAVE oil, and we are enjoying it at a very fair price. The rest of the world pays about the same as we do, but we have far less taxation on our motor fuel than, say, Europe.

          Domestic drilling isn't going to help. It IS going to help the oil companies - big surprise there. Moreover, OPEC is a cartel - they will raise the price so that the same number of dollars flows to them as it did before.

          We would be far better advised getting ready for the inevitable time when, due to forces beyond our control, costs rise. And they will. Unfortunately, if we refuse to see the handwriting on the wall, we're likely to be unable to respond at all.

          The Chinese government recognizes this, and they are currently ramping up their own internal effort to promote alternate energy research. HEre's a little blurb you might find interesting: http://seekingalpha.com/article/1964...t-leap-forward

          It's time to do-or-die... not do-the-same-old-thing AND die.
          Last edited by Andy_M; 04-02-2010, 02:25 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Oil Drilling

            There are even in the current economical situation plenty of investor groups wanting to build wind farms, but the government has so much red tape in the development and of building any power lines out of an area, most have been put on hold or dropped the development, the wind farm that was being developed for our area has been set back two years in hopes some thing on the transmission lines can be worked out. no one wants to play together, it appears to me.

            Energy billionaire T. Boone Pickens says he will unveil plans for a 400 megawatt wind farm in North America within 30 days that will use some of the 333 General Electric turbines he has on order for a stalled $10bn project in the Texas Panhandle.

            He ruled out Texas as a site for the proposed wind farm, citing shortage of power transmission lines http://www.rechargenews.com/energy/w...icle208236.ece
            some of the problems could easily be dealt with and make some of the projects work much easer,

            It has only been a short time in our area where one could hardly put up any type of grid tie system, as the local power providers would do ever thing in there power to block your way,

            Isn't this what the department of energy IN theory supposed to be doing is setting up the permeates to help get us off of foreign oil, but when ever some one wants to do some thing they are blocked at one door or another by more governmental red tape and lack of a coordinated plan,

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            I do not know who you are or where, but when gasoline diesel goes up it it hurts in our area, most are just hardly hanging on the way it is, and more expense is not the answer, (but if your so willing to pay more for fuel then I hope your willing to pay the extra for me too, if you want to spread your wealth around it is fine with me, but I do not have any to spread any more.)
            Last edited by BHD; 04-02-2010, 03:12 PM.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Oil Drilling

              I think the transmission line problem is a place where government intervention (ala moon landing style or manhattan project style) would be beneficial. Another "role model" would be Robert Moses, who managed to get infrastructure projects done; though he wasn't a particularly pleasant fellow.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Oil Drilling

                Originally posted by BHD View Post
                I do not know who you are or where, but when gasoline diesel goes up it it hurts in our area, most are just hardly hanging on the way it is, and more expense is not the answer, (but if your so willing to pay more for fuel then I hope your willing to pay the extra for me too, if you want to spread your wealth around it is fine with me, but I do not have any to spread any more.)
                I am not some rich guy that never had it tough. I have never been one to play it safe and I went from being well-off to very, very nearly losing my home and down to 1 meal a day, and then back up again. Today I operate on cash and owe nothing, have adequate means, and learned a lot in the process. The most important thing I learned was to look at the future and be willing to spend what I can today to prevent a problem next week, rather than to wait and hope things will work out by magic.

                But I understand what it is like to be in a tough situation. As I said a tax credit for those in that situation would be appropriate. Most Americans are not in that tough of a spot. If we ignore some of these issues, though, we all will be.

                The Obamanomics of spending without focus and the public's affinity for getting more for less money and less work are the real problems that drive the economy, both today and tomorrow. It is not fair to the many that work their butts off and don't want anything that they didn't earn, but that is the way it is.

                I know what dirt tastes like and even so, I'll support extreme measures if they deal with energy. Why? Because it WILL be the #1 problem we face moving into the future, closely followed by the aging population that cannot afford their retirement. The Mercedes, blackberry and flat screen tv will only serve as reminders of how foolish we were in 2010. I hope I'm wrong.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Oil Drilling

                  Some of the links you find for us are simply astounding BHD. I mean you manage to find written by reactionaries that run right of fox news. This one not quite as bad as the last, where I nearly fell out of my seat laughing when I read the authors name. This ones only the equivalent of citing Micheal Moore as a good source of information.

                  Originally posted by BHD's cite
                  All because of climate science that has been clearly exposed as inaccurate and untrustworthy.
                  Ah yes, 'clearly' I'll take his word for it over the scientific community of the world.

                  Obama may or may not be a communist plant sent to destroy America, but he sure is acting like one.
                  He continues to feed into the idea that Barrack Obama is not the legitimate democratically elected president. Like his politics or not he is our president. He is a citizen of the US. He is the leader the majority of the US choose. It would be nice if those on the right would attack him for solely his politics and not his legitimacy. They could stop pretending he isn't their president too.

                  He is not a 'communist plant sent to destroy America' For that moron to suggest it's even a possibility is disgusting and in my opinion contrary to American values and democratic elections.
                  Last edited by ToUtahNow; 04-02-2010, 06:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Oil Drilling

                    Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                    Ah yes, 'clearly' I'll take his word for it over the scientific community of the world.
                    here is from the new york times, a story from november
                    Hacked E-Mail Is New Fodder for Climate Dispute

                    Published: November 20, 2009
                    Hundreds of private e-mail messages and documents hacked from a computer server at a British university are causing a stir among global warming skeptics, who say they show that climate scientists conspired to overstate the case for a human influence on climate change.


                    Post a Comment on DotEarth | ReadThe e-mail messages, attributed to prominent American and British climate researchers, include discussions of scientific data and whether it should be released, exchanges about how best to combat the arguments of skeptics, and casual comments — in some cases derisive — about specific people known for their skeptical views. Drafts of scientific papers and a photo collage that portrays climate skeptics on an ice floe were also among the hacked data, some of which dates back 13 years.

                    In one e-mail exchange, a scientist writes of using a statistical “trick” in a chart illustrating a recent sharp warming trend. In another, a scientist refers to climate skeptics as “idiots.”

                    Some skeptics asserted Friday that the correspondence revealed an effort to withhold scientific information. “This is not a smoking gun; this is a mushroom cloud,” said Patrick J. Michaels, a climatologist who has long faulted evidence pointing to human-driven warming and is criticized in the documents.

                    Some of the correspondence portrays the scientists as feeling under siege by the skeptics’ camp and worried that any stray comment or data glitch could be turned against them.

                    The evidence pointing to a growing human contribution to global warming is so widely accepted that the hacked material is unlikely to erode the overall argument. However, the documents will undoubtedly raise questions about the quality of research on some specific questions and the actions of some scientists.

                    In several e-mail exchanges, Kevin Trenberth, a climatologist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, and other scientists discuss gaps in understanding of recent variations in temperature. Skeptic Web sites pointed out one line in particular: “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t,” Dr. Trenberth wrote.

                    The cache of e-mail messages also includes references to journalists, including this reporter, and queries from journalists related to articles they were reporting.

                    Officials at the University of East Anglia confirmed in a statement on Friday that files had been stolen from a university server and that the police had been brought in to investigate the breach. They added, however, that they could not confirm that all the material circulating on the Internet was authentic.

                    But several scientists and others contacted by The New York Times confirmed that they were the authors or recipients of specific e-mail messages included in the file. The revelations are bound to inflame the public debate as hundreds of negotiators prepare to negotiate an international climate accord at meetings in Copenhagen next month, and at least one scientist speculated that the timing was not coincidental.

                    Dr. Trenberth said Friday that he was appalled at the release of the e-mail messages.

                    But he added that he thought the revelations might backfire against climate skeptics. He said that he thought that the messages showed “the integrity of scientists.” Still, some of the comments might lend themselves to being interpreted as sinister.

                    In a 1999 e-mail exchange about charts showing climate patterns over the last two millenniums, Phil Jones, a longtime climate researcher at the East Anglia Climate Research Unit, said he had used a “trick” employed by another scientist, Michael Mann, to “hide the decline” in temperatures.

                    Dr. Mann, a professor at Pennsylvania State University, confirmed in an interview that the e-mail message was real. He said the choice of words by his colleague was poor but noted that scientists often used the word “trick” to refer to a good way to solve a problem, “and not something secret.”

                    At issue were sets of data, both employed in two studies. One data set showed long-term temperature effects on tree rings; the other, thermometer readings for the past 100 years.

                    Through the last century, tree rings and thermometers show a consistent rise in temperature until 1960, when some tree rings, for unknown reasons, no longer show that rise, while the thermometers continue to do so until the present.

                    Dr. Mann explained that the reliability of the tree-ring data was called into question, so they were no longer used to track temperature fluctuations. But he said dropping the use of the tree rings was never something that was hidden, and had been in the scientific literature for more than a decade. “It sounds incriminating, but when you look at what you’re talking about, there’s nothing there,” Dr. Mann said.

                    In addition, other independent but indirect measurements of temperature fluctuations in the studies broadly agreed with the thermometer data showing rising temperatures.

                    Dr. Jones, writing in an e-mail message, declined to be interviewed.

                    Stephen McIntyre, a blogger who on his Web site, climateaudit.org, has for years been challenging data used to chart climate patterns, and who came in for heated criticism in some e-mail messages, called the revelations “quite breathtaking.”

                    But several scientists whose names appear in the e-mail messages said they merely revealed that scientists were human, and did nothing to undercut the body of research on global warming. “Science doesn’t work because we’re all nice,” said Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA whose e-mail exchanges with colleagues over a variety of climate studies were in the cache. “Newton may have been an ***, but the theory of gravity still works.”

                    He said the breach at the University of East Anglia was discovered after hackers who had gained access to the correspondence sought Tuesday to hack into a different server supporting realclimate.org, a blog unrelated to NASA that he runs with several other scientists pressing the case that global warming is true.

                    The intruders sought to create a mock blog post there and to upload the full batch of files from Britain. That effort was thwarted, Dr. Schmidt said, and scientists immediately notified colleagues at the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit. The first posts that revealed details from the files appeared Thursday at The Air Vent, a Web site devoted to skeptics’ arguments.

                    At first, said Dr. Michaels, the climatologist who has faulted some of the science of the global warming consensus, his instinct was to ignore the correspondence as “just the way scientists talk.”

                    But on Friday, he said that after reading more deeply, he felt that some exchanges reflected an effort to block the release of data for independent review.

                    He said some messages mused about discrediting him by challenging the veracity of his doctoral dissertation at the University of Wisconsin by claiming he knew his research was wrong. “This shows these are people willing to bend rules and go after other people’s reputations in very serious ways,” he said.

                    Spencer R. Weart, a physicist and historian who is charting the course of research on global warming, said the hacked material would serve as “great material for historians.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/sc...21climate.html
                    some more that say much the same,

                    http://www.businessinsider.com/incon...piracy-2009-11

                    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6936328.ece

                    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...eneration.html
                    Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                    attributed to Samuel Johnson
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Oil Drilling

                      Originally posted by BHD View Post
                      Clearly their is still debate on both sides of the issue. It is not clear however as your article asserts that climate science is 'inaccurate or untrustworthy'

                      We've already had some debate on that subject I don't want to completely derail the broader subject of this tread. I just wanted to point out how untrustworthy your cite on this issue was.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Oil Drilling

                        On to the actual thread,

                        While in concept I like America having to suffer to break our addiction to oil, It isn't going to happen. It isn't policies a majority of Americans will stomach.

                        Green energy is the future, but the technology is not strong enough or cheap enough yet for us to simply drop oil in it's favor. We need a long term energy policy. Obama has already made investments into greener energy but it will take years those seeds to grow into anything. We need energy now.

                        Opening up drilling gives us another option besides buying the same resources abroad. It creates jobs in America and provides for a future that does not depend on foreign countries.

                        For the most part the sites being considered are not oil. We're talking about natural gas. It is a cleaner energy with even less environmental consequences.

                        The fear coming from the environmental left is laughable to me. Right now in order to get those same resources we have it shipped from around the world. Compare the actual environmental disasters of our time to those caused by platforms. We suffered huge damage to several platforms with Katrina and the environmental consequences of that was nothing compared to one international tanker spilling(Valdez). Add to that the majority of sites being proposed is natural gas, that doesn't even 'spill'

                        My objection to what is being proposed is that we aren't just looking to allow energy companies to drill off our shores. This energy proposal is looking to subsidize them doing so. I do not think we should be paying corporations for the privilege of buying from them. They should be paying us for the use of our property. Such as lobbying is in the country however in the end these companies will get billions of our tax dollars and in turn make billions more selling us what was rightfully ours to begin with.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Oil Drilling

                          We need to mandate clean fuel within reason, add tariffs on exported fuels and drill for both domestic oil and natural gas.

                          It is always easier to bargain when you are not on your knees.

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Oil Drilling

                            Why not take a "do it all" approach? Reduce the price of gasoline and heating oil by opening the reserves temporarily, while at the same time building the factories to produce the alternative energy parts and employ Americans who are out of work?

                            We don't need to put off using wind and solar energy because it is not perfect, the fact that it does work, using it would feed back into the grid and would reduce foreign oil consumption, should be enough!

                            Drill immediately for oil and gas. Strike a deal with the oil companies and get moving. Build some refineries, I know they take time and require government incentives. Give them what they need to build the refineries and let's stop enriching the terrorists and enemies of the USA.

                            It is one thing to talk about green jobs, alternative energy, oil exploration, reducing foreing consumption, and it's another thing to make it all happen.

                            If there was a fire in my house, I wouldn't think to myself, "Hey, maybe I should open a window and get some fresh air in here", and leave it at that.
                            I would open a window, get my family out, find something to put out the fire, and so on.

                            I am upset that so much time was spent working on and passing this fantastic healthcare reform bill , and all the other urgent issues were ignored.

                            Why do we need to suffer more in order to move forward with multi faceted plans to resolve our stagnant economy and dependance on foreign oil?

                            How much has our government spent (republicans and democrats) on wars, bailouts and stimulus and foreign aid? Can you seriously tell me if the government wanted to lower the price of gasoline, build factories and offer solar or wind alternatives to home and business owners at a fraction of today's cost, that it could not be done immediately?

                            We are still being manipulated, still stuck in the past and addicted to oil.
                            We need alternatives, and we are not getting any although they exist.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Oil Drilling

                              It's exactly right that the technology isn't ready yet. That's why we need a massive national program on the scale of the space program. Wind turbines and silicon photo cells are great but unfortunately both have been around for a long time and neither has demonstrated the pace of development that will position them to provide our energy needs.

                              A comprehensive energy plan would involve development of technologies that are viable in the relative near term (10 years), such as fuel cells, nuclear energy, bio fuels, geothermal and hydroelectric generation, clean coal and other domestic fossil fuel technologies, and also a massive revision to our fragile and antiquated grid. It would also need to provide basic research for the long term, and solve problems associated with the life and cost of manufacturing solar cells, efficient batteries and other energy storage devices, motors, and safety as part of a long term solution. And who knows what else... it hasn't been invented yet. Maybe huge scale ocean wave generators. Or space-based solar collectors and long-wavelength laser power transmission... this is where we need to go, not to the oil platform. We also have yet to solve the issues associated with nuclear waste or with the environmental hazards-a-plenty associated with large scale photocell production or battery production. These things are not trivial problems. No other country has the werewithall to solve them, although China is trying to develop the capability. We won't have the money to solve the problems if we continue to dilly-dally.

                              Many people think fusion is important in the long term... I don't personally see it as a good percentage gamble, but it could be. One thing is for sure - private industry has not got the horses to work on fusion or most of the really tough issues.

                              My point is that we can't just crank up the factories to build the alternate energy stuff. There is much basic science and technology that remains to be done. Many years worth, and a lot of money. We need to suffer more to get past the energy problem because the cost is nasty and we have ignored it for 40 years and not suffered really at all. Why would we bother? Gas has been cheap. We don't respond historically unless something is broken. Spending money on entitlements, bailouts and wars is plenty of suffering but unfortunately it doesn't count because none of it addressed energy.

                              It's clear that everyone wants cheap energy. I do too. But look at the facts. There is no shortage, and drilling is unlikely to reduce oil costs significantly or at all. We have $3 gasoline, and a national average cost per kw-hr of electricity at about 12 cents per kw-hr. Electricity is about 150% of the cost of gasoline, for the same energy content. Natural gas is already so cheap that there is little reason to put any effort into getting more of it now, although it might be a player in the near term solution. I say "might" because this country doesn't really have a strategic plan. Anyway, we can complain about high fuel cost but the fact is they aren't that high in comparison to most of the rest of the world, and compared to national average income it's not all that high, either.

                              China is spending twice what we spend on alternate energy, and they are working toward a plan with both near term and long term view. Someone is going to break the dependence on imported oil... if you think China is a tough competitor now, wait until they solve that little problem.

                              I understand that taxing the heck out of fuel to fund and energy independence program is politically unpopular, certainly this thread points that out very clearly. But if we really want to free ourselves from foreign oil for the long term, the fact is that we are going to have to pump some real money into the problem. And in the US, that hasn't happened in 40 years and isn't going to happen as long as fuel is inexpensive. You can argue it if you like, but the history is clear. Do we have an energy policy today? Why not? Would we if gasoline was $10 per gallon? I think we would.

                              Terrorists attacked us several times and our response is to go to war, drive the debt up and endear ourselves to the rest of the world. 9-11 was nearly NINE years ago.... by now we could have cut the b*st*rds off at the knees if the money had been funnelled into solving some basic problems and thus putting them out of business. Instead we have been at war for those years. Spent the money. Still have the exact same problem.

                              But we like our cheap gas, I know, I know.

                              I'm just sayin'....
                              Last edited by Andy_M; 04-03-2010, 12:05 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Oil Drilling

                                Andy, I disagree, the technology is here and has been here. People who have solar panels on their homes do save electricity, and at certain time send electricity back into the grid turning their electric meters backwards! The systems are not perfect, but they are worth expanding and most of all they do produce real savings. If they were done on a large scale we could save plenty, why depend soley on research when the savings could be now?

                                Windmills work, they are in many places around the world and right here, they do produce a lot of electricity. People argue they don't want them in their backyard because they are noisy. Ted Kennedy and his crowd didn't want them ruining the view in his favorite Summer spot, but they work. There were plans to build a windmill farm along Long Island NY , I believe that would have provided all the power for a local community.

                                We are foolish and wasteful to put off any longer reductions in consumption we could have today. We would be employing many thousands of Americans to produce these products, which by the way are produced abroad and are currently being installed throughout the USA.

                                I suggest we encourage research for better technologies, but make use of the current alternatives that do work and are being used all over the world today.

                                I can't imagine the downside to having solar panels on as many homes and businesses as we can manage, providing energy when the Sun is shining?
                                I can't understand why we should wait erecting windmill farms. harnessing the power of the wind and reducing our energy dependence on oil?

                                Come on, what's the problem? Do you ahve any idea how many folks commute less than fifty or fewer miles a day? Plug in hybrids could save enormous amounts of oil and reduce pollution too. Battery technology must improve and disposal as well, but to keep putting it off is not necessary.

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