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  • #61
    Re: Oil Drilling

    Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
    As for windmills, solar cells and solar panels we just plain simply need to stop wasting resources manufacturing technology that does not produce solely for the purpose of procuring federal rebate and incentive money. Research is where the money needs to go. It is bizarre to me that you can start up a factory that makes stuff that does not work, get money from the government and then sell the stuff to people who will also get money from the government and it still does not work. welcome to the welfare state.
    And at the same time, we know nuclear power plants work, we know how to build them better than ever; but we don't.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Oil Drilling

      Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
      Yes. Legitimate tax breaks are fine. 'Dodges' transfer tax burden to everyone else based on a scam. We had the same thing Mark describes here in the late 70s through the mid 80s. In this case, investors were sold a bill of goods about the wind farms. Most lost and in many cases the IRS denied the tax breaks.
      Like most technical minded persons, you obviously didn't catch the sarcasm

      Not really. They lasted longer than planned because spacecraft are always designed very very conservatively. The cost of a service call is high. In the case of solar panels (all, not just NASAs), there is a large standard deviation in the lifetime. To ensure that the device will function long enough to complete the mission, all the components in the craft are designed in consideration of the failure rate statistics so that in the worst case, the machine will last long enough. They fully expected the panels to last much longer than the design life. If the failure rate data was gaussian, the expectation was probably 3x-6x longer (not really an expectation so much as aconsideration of the probable lifetime) than planned, and no one would be terribly shocked to see them running longer than that. But it makes for great press releases.
      Okay, okay, okay. The rovers lasted longer than required. The panels were exceptionally efficient and lasted longer than was required for the mission.


      Your point is okay, but your statements are not quite true. Current PV cells are optimized to be more efficient at one wavelength, but it isn't true that they 'process' only at a single wavength.
      There now, was that so hard? You almost agreed.

      I don't think the discussion is about not developing the technologies based on their current lack of viability. It's about large scale implementation of current technologies that are still not economically viable. Big difference.
      Huh? Who was talking about current lack of viability. I said that economic viability is a poor excuse to not pursue technology. Oil prices are currently, and have been for a while now, artificially low. When the cost oil is no longer being subsidized by our military presence, a lot of these technologies will suddenly be economically viable. We can wait till that juncture and start to weed out the operational bugs or start now.

      The problem is that the finance rules of the game do not incentivize the private sector to make the massive investment needed to develop the technology. Which is why the pace is maddeningly slow or in some cases stopped. A lot of this is only going to happen with public money - the overall rate of return isn't there, and risk is too high, for private business to fund it.
      Bloom Energy has so far received $400 million in venture capital. This product is a step in the right direction. It may not be ready for residential use but it makes sense for large campuses like Google and Ebay.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Oil Drilling

        Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
        As for windmills, solar cells and solar panels we just plain simply need to stop wasting resources manufacturing technology that does not produce solely for the purpose of procuring federal rebate and incentive money. Research is where the money needs to go. It is bizarre to me that you can start up a factory that makes stuff that does not work, get money from the government and then sell the stuff to people who will also get money from the government and it still does not work. welcome to the welfare state.
        I'm really glad I never invested hard earned money into something that would not have produced as advertised. I'm positive that on more than one occassion I have seen local News reports showcasing solar installations on local homes and how they were feeding back into the grid. Guess they just failed to mention all the limitations? Thanks for the education.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Oil Drilling

          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
          I'm really glad I never invested hard earned money into something that would not have produced as advertised. I'm positive that on more than one occassion I have seen local News reports showcasing solar installations on local homes and how they were feeding back into the grid. Guess they just failed to mention all the limitations? Thanks for the education.
          As far as return on investment dollars, you will lose.

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Oil Drilling

            Originally posted by cpw View Post
            And at the same time, we know nuclear power plants work, we know how to build them better than ever; but we don't.
            Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were the practical end for reactors in the US. The American public's overreaction was somewhat irrational, but then again, that's what the public most often does. I think at this point memories have faded and economic pressure makes fission reactors more attractive today.

            Unfortunately, the nuclear fuel limitations are not widely appreciated, although it's not new information. At this point I don't see a lot of sense in starting reactor projects that will take upwards of 5 and probably closer to 10 years to commission, unless the military is willing to part with some of its fissionable material to extend the useful life of the reactors to at least 2030 or 2040.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Oil Drilling

              You guys need to look at the Hyperion mini nuclear power plants meant to be installed in neighborhoods and they are operator free. The military is looking at installing them in bases so they are off the grid.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Oil Drilling

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Well, that's dam depressing! Obviously if you guys know what you are talking about(and I don't doubt that) then certainly President Obama had the same information when he promised all those green jobs and alternative energy options to cut foreign oil and employ Americans?

                You're not telling me he lied, are you? Okay, the alternatives don't exist yet, now what happens? Are we sunk???
                There are multiple technologies for accessing energy for our use other than fossil fuels. Some are available today but not very good, as stated above, and need serious improvement, some are strictly theoretical and need a lot of design and development, some are in their infancy and need basic scientific research, and some we haven't dreamed up yet.

                We are not sunk, unless we choose to waste more time. We need to give this priority, we need a plan, we need money, we need commitment, and we need to get started.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Oil Drilling

                  Originally posted by cpw View Post
                  And at the same time, we know nuclear power plants work, we know how to build them better than ever; but we don't.
                  I live about 6 miles from the Westinghouse plant. They are 15 years out on production. All for foreign countries.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Oil Drilling

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    You guys need to look at the Hyperion mini nuclear power plants meant to be installed in neighborhoods and they are operator free. The military is looking at installing them in bases so they are off the grid.

                    Mark
                    Very interesting. They've shelved the uranium hydride design for the time being in order to get a different design out in the field quicker (by 2013).

                    Disappointed that they're building an assembly plant in the UK, though! They're also considering a plant to service the Asian market.

                    Nuclear could be useful ... if breeder reactors, thorium fuel or other techniques can be safely deployed to extend the fuel supply.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Oil Drilling

                      I had lunch with my brother today and he said the other thing to watch is methane hydrates. Apparently there are thought to be vast sources of it. If they can figure out how to harvest it could be an alternative energy instead of a pollutant.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YegdE...layer_embedded

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment

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