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  • BTW Climate gate.

    Came across this article today an update to the original New York Times article

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/sc...mate.html?_r=1

    Originally posted by New York Times
    Hundreds of private e-mail messages and documents hacked from a computer server at a British university are causing a stir among global warming skeptics, who say they show that climate scientists conspired to overstate the case for a human influence on climate change.
    Here is the newest article. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/sc...31climate.html

    Originally posted by New York Times
    LONDON (AP) — A parliamentary panel investigating allegations that scientists at one of the world’s leading climate research centers misrepresented data related to global warming announced Wednesday that it had found no evidence to support that charge.

  • #2
    Re: BTW Climate gate.

    I think most folks that are denying the legitimacy of man-made climate change do so more to defend a comfortable way of life than they do out of any particular science.

    Personally I do not know enough about the topic to fully believe it or disbelieve it. I tend to side with the scientists and academics, at least they are working on the problem, and there is an overwhelming preponderance of opinion that among that community that it's a real phenomenon.

    I just don't have the background in that area to know for sure. But I ask myself... "What if the global warming people are RIGHT?" I sure wouldn't want to suffer those consequences because I decided they were full of beans... seems to me better to err on the side of caution than to dismiss the fears.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BTW Climate gate.

      The fact that wether or not human activity is the cause of, or accomplice to climatic changes is immaterial as it is irrevelant. What is a fact we need to live with, and just good business, is effecient use of natural resources, reduction of waste, and minimise pollutents for easy clean up operations.

      Perform these actions, and whatever condition the Earth is in, will simply be something we will have to deal with and adjust to.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BTW Climate gate.

        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
        I think most folks that are denying the legitimacy of man-made climate change do so more to defend a comfortable way of life than they do out of any particular science.

        Personally I do not know enough about the topic to fully believe it or disbelieve it. I tend to side with the scientists and academics, at least they are working on the problem, and there is an overwhelming preponderance of opinion that among that community that it's a real phenomenon.

        I just don't have the background in that area to know for sure. But I ask myself... "What if the global warming people are RIGHT?" I sure wouldn't want to suffer those consequences because I decided they were full of beans... seems to me better to err on the side of caution than to dismiss the fears.
        If global warming is real, (which I happen to believe), then we need to reign in china and india. I think it is stupid to think we can have much of a positive impact if other countries are not onboard. It's like having a hundred kids with matches in a field of dry grass and saying they can play with matches, but I'll save the field by not doing the same!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BTW Climate gate.

          Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
          I think most folks that are denying the legitimacy of man-made climate change do so more to defend a comfortable way of life than they do out of any particular science.

          Personally I do not know enough about the topic to fully believe it or disbelieve it. I tend to side with the scientists and academics, at least they are working on the problem, and there is an overwhelming preponderance of opinion that among that community that it's a real phenomenon.

          I just don't have the background in that area to know for sure. But I ask myself... "What if the global warming people are RIGHT?" I sure wouldn't want to suffer those consequences because I decided they were full of beans... seems to me better to err on the side of caution than to dismiss the fears.
          I think global warming may be a real issue, but I'm positive manmade pollution exists. We can debate the eality of global warming, but can we deny pollution to the air, waters and land? Why not clean all that up while we figure out global warming. When I say "clean all that up", I mean the countries that don't have an EPA. If you have ten kids peeing in your pool and you only remove one kid, you still have a pool full of piss.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BTW Climate gate.

            pollution is one thing, CO2 is a by product of ever living creature, it is the product that plants live off of, it is there oxygen, it is as essential for plant live as oxygen is to animal life,

            just off the top of your head how much CO2 do you think is in the air we breath? What is the percent of CO2? ,03%, 4%, 20%, or 80% or other%, now don't go look it up at least make a guess first and then look it up.

            now think about for a few seconds, what is our biology chemistry based on? CARBON,

            Carbon is the 15th most abundant element in the Earth's crust, and the fourth most abundant element in the universe by mass after hydrogen, helium, and oxygen. It is present in all known lifeforms, and in the human body carbon is the second most abundant element by mass (about 18.5%) after oxygen.[14] This abundance, together with the unique diversity of organic compounds and their unusual polymer-forming ability at the temperatures commonly encountered on Earth, make this element the chemical basis of all known life.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon

            Sunspots reaching 1,000-year high
            By Dr David Whitehouse
            BBC News Online science editor



            Sunspots are plentiful nowadays
            A new analysis shows that the Sun is more active now than it has been at anytime in the previous 1,000 years.
            Scientists based at the Institute for Astronomy in Zurich used ice cores from Greenland to construct a picture of our star's activity in the past.

            They say that over the last century the number of sunspots rose at the same time that the Earth's climate became steadily warmer.

            The warming is being amplified by gases from fossil fuel burning, they argue.
            'Little Ice Age'

            Sunspots have been monitored on the Sun since 1610, shortly after the invention of the telescope. They provide the longest-running direct measurement of our star's activity.

            The variation in sunspot numbers has revealed the Sun's 11-year cycle of activity as well as other, longer-term changes.

            In particular, it has been noted that between about 1645 and 1715, few sunspots were seen on the Sun's surface.

            This period is called the Maunder Minimum after the English astronomer who studied it.



            Ice cores record climate trends back beyond human measurements
            It coincided with a spell of prolonged cold weather often referred to as the "Little Ice Age". Solar scientists strongly suspect there is a link between the two events - but the exact mechanism remains elusive.
            Over the past few thousand years there is evidence of earlier Maunder-like coolings in the Earth's climate - indicated by tree-ring measurements that show slow growth due to prolonged cold.

            In an attempt to determine what happened to sunspots during these other cold periods, Dr Sami Solanki and colleagues have looked at concentrations of a form, or isotope, of beryllium in ice cores from Greenland.

            The isotope is created by cosmic rays - high-energy particles from the depths of the galaxy.

            The flux of cosmic rays reaching the Earth's surface is modulated by the strength of the solar wind, the charged particles that stream away from the Sun's surface.

            And since the strength of the solar wind varies over the sunspot cycle, the amount of beryllium in the ice at a time in the past can therefore be used to infer the state of the Sun and, roughly, the number of sunspots.

            Latest warming

            Dr Solanki is presenting a paper on the reconstruction of past solar activity at Cool Stars, Stellar Systems And The Sun, a conference in Hamburg, Germany.

            He says that the reconstruction shows the Maunder Minimum and the other minima that are known in the past thousand years.

            But the most striking feature, he says, is that looking at the past 1,150 years the Sun has never been as active as it has been during the past 60 years.

            Over the past few hundred years, there has been a steady increase in the numbers of sunspots, a trend that has accelerated in the past century, just at the time when the Earth has been getting warmer.

            The data suggests that changing solar activity is influencing in some way the global climate causing the world to get warmer. ...


            This latest analysis shows that the Sun has had a considerable indirect influence on the global climate in the past, causing the Earth to warm or chill,

            http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3869753.stm
            or this one if you want more info on the 1000 year cycle that the sun has been going through,

            and if any warming has taken place the sun has been ignored in the theory of the process,

            the method of taking temperatures has changed, and the paint on the boxes have been changed and some experimentation has showed where they may cause a higher reading,
            http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/01/1...en-paint-test/
            some more of the research on the locations many are in a urban environment on parking lots and other heat retaining and reflecting areas,
            http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpre...t_spring09.pdf

            a lot of this "climate change" is just a scheme to tax and to control business and the producing world again,
            Last edited by BHD; 04-03-2010, 10:09 AM.
            Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
            attributed to Samuel Johnson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BTW Climate gate.

              "and if any warming has taken place the sun has been ignored in the theory of the process"

              It has not been ignored. The fact of the matter is that sunspot activity for the past 30 plus years has been consistent. Meanwhile, temperatures continue to rise.

              BBC Report

              Read the last paragraph in the conclusion on page 4.

              And yet another study were they are unable to find a direct correlation between solar activity (cosmic rays) and global warming.

              But I found this article revealing.

              It takes very few resources (money) to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt to secure the status quo.

              I'll take the word of scientists and academics over paid shills.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BTW Climate gate.

                My problem with Global Warming is the way it was introduced with gloom and doom as an immediate consequence. Top that off with the fact that Gore has made tens of millions on Global Warming and I get a little more skeptic. Now the UK Parliament holds a single day hearing as to whether the numbers were fudged and what they come back with is they didn't believe the numbers were fudged but that the researchers were hiding information to protect their findings. That in and of itself would make most of us skeptical.

                Global Warming may or may not be real but not too long ago scientist were warning of Global Cooling. Regardless of what the truth is I do not believe anyone can argue there are in fact consequence to what man is doing to the environment.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BTW Climate gate.

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  My problem with Global Warming is the way it was introduced with gloom and doom as an immediate consequence. Top that off with the fact that Gore has made tens of millions on Global Warming and I get a little more skeptic. Now the UK Parliament holds a single day hearing as to whether the numbers were fudged and what they come back with is they didn't believe the numbers were fudged but that the researchers were hiding information to protect their findings. That in and of itself would make most of us skeptical.

                  Global Warming may or may not be real but not too long ago scientist were warning of Global Cooling. Regardless of what the truth is I do not believe anyone can argue there are in fact consequence to what man is doing to the environment.

                  Mark
                  Agreed. Dumping waste in the rivers, oceans, ground and air does create a poor environment for us to live in. We will suffer our consequences and our kids and grandkids may suffer, however the planet in general is a resilient place. Take a look at what's happened to it in the past and yet we are here living.

                  For the sake of our comfort and well being we should take care of Earth, but I don't buy into the theory that mankind has created global warming all by ourselves.

                  Again, look at the history of the planet. Look at the warming and cooling trends that happen. We just happen to be at the top of the latest warming trend. Sooner or later it will start to reverse the cycle.
                  Last edited by Trent2; 04-03-2010, 04:00 PM.
                  www.ClinkscalesSeptic.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BTW Climate gate.

                    On the flip side of Al Gore and the few proponents of green energy you have some of the Richest people in the world who make billions on the status quo. Charles Koch is the 8th Richest man on the planet. If he had been an only child he'd be even higher on that list. Charles Koch heads the second largest privately held company in the US, Koch industries.

                    http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ch-industries/

                    the Greenpeace report suggests that Koch has also made a small industry of funding research and public relations endeavors aimed at undermining the prevailing scientific view that human-driven greenhouse gas emissions are contributing to a warming planet — as well as financing opposition to the development of clean-energy policy and technologies.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: BTW Climate gate.

                      Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                      On the flip side of Al Gore and the few proponents of green energy you have some of the Richest people in the world who make billions on the status quo. Charles Koch is the 8th Richest man on the planet. If he had been an only child he'd be even higher on that list. Charles Koch heads the second largest privately held company in the US, Koch industries.

                      http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ch-industries/

                      You mean these guy?

                      http://www.kochind.com/EHS/default.aspx

                      It sounds like he has done more than status quo.

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: BTW Climate gate.

                        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                        If global warming is real, (which I happen to believe), then we need to reign in china and india. I think it is stupid to think we can have much of a positive impact if other countries are not onboard. It's like having a hundred kids with matches in a field of dry grass and saying they can play with matches, but I'll save the field by not doing the same!
                        We currently consume 20% of the world's oil production. China, 8% and India, under 3%.

                        So we CAN make a big impact, and I think we should continue to strive to be cleaner.

                        I agree with you though. China in particular but also India and several other developing nations have virtually no environmental regulation or even awareness. China will eventually outstrip US use of fossil fuels. The big difference is that in the US we are big users but also somewhat responsible and with a social conscience. So far there is no evidence that China or these others will do much no matter how much they grow. So far, about all they've done is complain about the US.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: BTW Climate gate.

                          A rosy press release does not wash away the fact they have invested millions into climate change denial. They have a lot to lose if they don't control of where the energy market goes. I have no doubt they themselves will jump on the same bandwagon they've vigorously opposed when the markets right but they still have much money to make on the way things are.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: BTW Climate gate.

                            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                            So far there is no evidence that China or these others will do much no matter how much they grow. So far, about all they've done is complain about the US.
                            China has invested three times what the US has into green technology. They aren't stupid. They know they need far more energy in their future. They can look at us and our dependence on oil and say we don't want to become that.

                            China being a communist country has the advantage of their 40 year energy policy will actually be a 40 year policy. In the US our policies only go as far as the next election.

                            They are making their investments now while we argue about what ours should be.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: BTW Climate gate.

                              Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                              A rosy press release does not wash away the fact they have invested millions into climate change denial. They have a lot to lose if they don't control of where the energy market goes. I have no doubt they themselves will jump on the same bandwagon they've vigorously opposed when the markets right but they still have much money to make on the way things are.
                              I don't believe you can compare the wealth of a large corporation which is diversified in many industries with an individual (Gore) managing "carbon credits" to build his personal wealth.

                              Everyone has a lot to lose with an unnecessary over aggressive plan to save the environment. The fact that Greenpeace is campaigning against them almost gives them a free pass in my book. I'm all for saving the environment but it has to be responsible.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment

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