Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chinese Junk

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Re: Chinese Junk

    Originally posted by Abbott View Post
    That's an easy one. I am thinking that I am going to live my life and enjoy it. All of this "I only buy American" hasn't much basis in reality. No matter how much outdated thinking and products some of you guys try to purchase and defend it makes exactly no difference at all. It's a great big world out there and it is going to keep turning for our kids and our grand kids no matter how much a few dinosaurs complain about only buying American made.

    "It's a mother beautiful bridge and it's going to be there".
    Abbott, your reality is an illusion of sorts. Many people ignore a harsh reality as a coping mechanism. Those of us who discuss these issues enjoy life but still find it helpful to exchange opinions and thoughts on our economy, how it got here and what might change it. I bet there are young Americans you would not define as dinosaurs who have lost their made in America jobs, that is their reality.
    The things we do as consumers does make a difference, same as the things big business and government does. The idea that what people do makes a difference is the basis for much of world history. When good people do nothing we have the resulting problems evidenced in our dwindling economy. Good line from the movie "Hell Boy", "In the absence of light, darkness prevails". Find the time and strength to enjoy life and understand the world around you.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Chinese Junk

      Here, here. Andy and Frank, I agree with you both.

      And what about this? Wasn't China we have fought on a instances. And I mean fought with blood and guts and American lives.
      Now all of a sudden its OK to fund this government that only a few years ago we were facing off against in the jungles.

      Reagan said in a speech once that we were transitioning to a service economy. I don't think many understood what he meant by that.
      "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
      John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Chinese Junk

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        Abbott, your reality is an illusion of sorts.
        I disagree Frank. All of your doom and gloom and purchase Made is USA only is the illusion. The world and our country is changing everyday. China is not the boogieman and it certainly isn't a large enough concern to dampen my spirits. You may take your grain of sand and toss it onto the beach (buy USA made only) and see what it gets you, lots of worries and depression it appears by your writings to this forum.

        I have much more important things to do with my time and money such as enjoying my life. If Made in USA is the Holy Grail you ( and a few others) try to make it out to be then their would not be millions of Japanese cars on our roads. You and a few other (old timers, not meant in a derogatory way) are living in a fantasy world, a bygone era. Your thinking and purchasing Made in USA only is nothing more then a quaint ideal that has no basis in today's economy or reality. Go ahead and toss your grain of sand onto the beach it isn't going to change a thing except in your own mind.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Chinese Junk

          Originally posted by Abbott View Post
          I disagree Frank. All of your doom and gloom and purchase Made is USA only is the illusion. The world and our country is changing everyday. China is not the boogieman and it certainly isn't a large enough concern to dampen my spirits. You may take your grain of sand and toss it onto the beach (buy USA made only) and see what it gets you, lots of worries and depression it appears by your writings to this forum.

          I have much more important things to do with my time and money such as enjoying my life. If Made in USA is the Holy Grail you ( and a few others) try to make it out to be then their would not be millions of Japanese cars on our roads. You and a few other (old timers, not meant in a derogatory way) are living in a fantasy world, a bygone era. Your thinking and purchasing Made in USA only is nothing more then a quaint ideal that has no basis in today's economy or reality. Go ahead and toss your grain of sand onto the beach it isn't going to change a thing except in your own mind.

          Well, you are free to look at things as you like.

          But all this "Made in USA" is not a holy grail. It's just economic reality. The facts are right there. The dollar continues to lose value every year. Prices of all goods, domestic and imported, are rising every year. Corn is up 60%. Oil is sharply up. These both drive the cost of meat. The only thing that isn't up is housing, despite the fact that the Government is sponsoring record low interest rates. Housing is not up because the real unemployment rate is huge, and has been huge for years. Very few can afford homes, even though the prices have dipped 30% or more.

          The Japanese cars on the road are not a good thing. Been to Detroit lately? Any idea how many US jobs were lost because all those cars were imported instead of built here? You don't get it... those cars need to be Fords and Chevies. Wealthy people need to drive Lincolns and Caddies, not Lexus and Mercedes. I won't claim that the auto industry didn't screw up - they did. The Unions helped a lot. But thefact is that every one of those foreign cars means Americans are doing without. It you're good with that, ok. I am not.

          Speaking of jobs, the published unemployment rate is 9.1%. Here in CA, the largest economy in the country, the rate is over 12%. This is based on only those that are collecting unemployment checks. Those that no longer get benefits, or that have take jobs at sharply reduced pay, aren't counted. Estimates of the REAL unemployment rate in the US are anywhere from 15 to 20 percent. In CA, the estimates are 25%. Do you know what the unemployment rate was during the Great Depression? 20 to 25%.

          So why aren't we in soup lines? The reason is because the Government is passing out money like it was popcorn. They're giving it to banks, to the States, and yes to business. Unemployment was supposed to be 26 weeks. The Federal Government has extended that to 99 weeks. They're also holding interest rates at record lows (mortgages here can be had in the 3% area) to prop up the economy. The Federal budget, which is essentially buys nothing that is exportable or even useful as a saleable commodity, is 25% of the Gross Domestic Product. Add to that the cost of the wars (which are "off budget" and not accounted for!!), and the massive printing of money, and it's clear that the economy is very very sick. The emperor has no clothes.

          But you don't see that this is all the real illusion, that the illusion has been ongiong in the US for the past 40 years? Well, then keep buying all that Chinese crap. But mayve yo should print this thread and show your kids when they graduate college with a $150k in student loans and end up working at the mall for minimum wage, and ask you if it's true that America used to be a great Country. That's not what I think might happen. It's what is happening right now.

          Sure the world is changing. It's changing because of the US is losing its position as an industrial leader. Seems to me that ignoring it, as too many of us have done since the 1970s, isn't going to curb inflation, generate jobs for the next generation or provide for our kids and grandkids. But you go right ahead and enjoy... no worries!

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Chinese Junk

            I see the "illusion" as guys like you who think that if they only buy Made in USA it is somehow going to fix the problem. I also find lumping all of the products into one category of "Chinese crap and/or junk" ridiculous and without merit which ways negatively on all of your arguments. I like many of my imported goods and their quality has improved by leaps and bounds over the years and is getting better all the time. I also find the attempted guilt trip to be juvenile and pointless, if you don't like me buying imported goods tough cheese old man! I have no doubt that the USA will be around providing a good standard of living for it citizens long after you are gone. Buying Made in USA only these days is a pipe dream with no basis in reality.
            Last edited by Abbott; 06-13-2011, 10:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Chinese Junk

              Buying American goods certainly isn't sufficient to fix the problem. It will take a lot more. But supporting US industry is a necessary cog in the machine. If we don't support US industry, we won't have US industry. Or, in my delusional senility am I missing something?

              Quality of imported goods isn't at issue. I happen to believe very strongly Chinese quality is inferior. I'm not speaking as a comnsumer, I'm speaking as a technical person that has had to hand hold, baby sit and teach the largest manufacturer in the world how to build a product that was designed by my engineering group here in the United States. I KNOW that Asian materials, as well as components such as bearings, bolts, motors, solenoids, valves etc are truly crap, and with your permission I will characterize them as such until they improve. I KNOW that the good quality products that you enjoy, such as your laptop and cell phone, are good because of Americans, who are in effect teaching our economic competitors how to kick our collective butts. But it doesn't really matter. the issue is not how ggood or bad their stuff is. The issue is, US wealth is flowing overseas as we buy it. If Americans don't support American made products, who will? In China, the government holds exchange rate of their currency very low against the US dollar. This results in Chinese products being available to US consumers like you at giveaway pricing, while most Chinese can't afford their own stuff. Why would their government do that? They have over a billion consumers right there at home. It's precisely so that people like you will buy the stuff, destroy the US manufacturing base, and thus eliminate the competition. At this point, their monetary policy and the massive influx of US dollars has created a serious inflation problem in China. Over the next several years, expect to see your beloved imported crap, uh I mean products, increase in price dramatically. Guess what? There won't be anything you can do about it, because all the US factories are closed and all the production has long since moved offshore. It's the Chinese equivalent of a sucker punch, and we are the suckers.

              But, young man, perhaps you have a deeper understanding than I. Perhaps you know of a way for the US to provide that good standard of living you are looking forward to. Care to educate me as to how that's going to come about? Care to explain to this old man where the 8 million jobs that have been lost - over just the past few years - are going to come from? Care to explain where exactly the money is going to come from to replace that which flows out of the country every day? Care to explain where we're going to come up with the resources to pay for the maintenance of our military superiority? I'm serious. Please do explain your insight in some detail. I know I would feel a lot better.
              Last edited by Andy_M; 06-13-2011, 11:10 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Chinese Junk

                Abbott, I want to correct you on something. I am not of the buy made in America only mantra. We cannot do that because we are a dead society that makes almost nothing it consumes. I believe in having foresight and using present behavior and trends to reasonably predict the future. This leads me to believe you are in denial to think our economy can surivive if we continue to depend heavily on communist china, mexico, sri lanka, vietnam and other scum ponds for our necessities. I stand by my original post that most of the products made in china and for that matter mexico and elsewhere are little more than junk which must be repurchased over and over again. Switches that fail, plastic gears and housings that crack, metal parts that lack any quality control are common place and not the exception. Perhaps as a handy man you don't see a broad cross section of the goods I refer to but they are the majority. There is no defending American made auto of the 70's, poorly designed to perform or last with planned obsolescense the key ingredient.

                I maintain that wheter or not you enjoy and rave about your imported goods , they spell the end of our society. We must have American jobs that pay well in order to pay taxes that support our government, allow us to live the American dream of home ownership and a good life for our children including college if so desired. Think for a moment of the life our slave counterparts are living? They cannot afford most of the products they make, electronics, sporting goods, appliances. they have no health care to speak of, no environmental protection or labor groups to insure a safe workplace free from abuse. I won't respond to anymore of your posts, I've said all I have to say. Take care. Frank

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Chinese Junk

                  really one has to look at a little history first,

                  go back to WW2, we were the basically the only industrial economy that survived the war, we did not fight on our soil our industry was intact, our factories were intact, we were intact, (and we had man power, in many of the countrys many of the men were dead).

                  we were by default the worlds supplier, and for about 30 years that was the fact Jack, then Japan finally got rebuilt, Germany and the UK, even now China under communist rule lagged for years,

                  but once these other countries became producers again, the demand for our products lessened, and they now had products to sell as well,

                  but our manufacturing was living it up fat and happy, no new factories or manufacturing process, many or much of it was still Pre WW2 production methods and ways,

                  here is Japan and Asia, with modern steel, modern auto and electronics, able to build better and cheaper,

                  it sent the US in a panic and still is,

                  as Japan and Twain matured, here comes main land China (some what with the blessing of Nixon and most presidents following) started to ramp up there production and building factories and stuff,

                  soon even Japan and US and many other countries are starting to play catch up and there blessed with cheap labor, some thing the US had not seen since the depression for the most part,

                  so the problem is not nessarly China or Asia, but world events,

                  If we want to export the cheap dollar is good, it allows them to buy our products at a lower price, (it is bad for consumers in the states as over sea products cost us more),

                  and just being made in the USA does not equate to VALUE or QUALITY, or being made over seas equate to JUNK, there is a lot of US made junk and a lot of over seas value and quality, (the US car manufacturers have been in a catch up mode for nearly 30 years now on value and quality, and your constantly reading about how some manufacture has put out product that is less than desirable,

                  the problem is not just the government or the people or the Unions or the regulatory agencies but it is the world happenings, (yes all have a part in the problems or the solutions) but the events of history has a large part of the situation as well, and decisions made by leaders 50 years ago, (leaders in commerce and government)

                  yes one could pass a law to buy USA only, but how would that help, most likely we would not have an export market at all with products we would be an internal economy only, as other countries would block our products, and if there is not some competition why would we improve, why would we even try to provide a value or quality products as we have a cornered market,
                  Example,
                  when it comes to fuel efficiency, US car makers say no way we can't do that, two weeks later Honda or Toyota sends over a car that meets EPA and the MPG the government wanted and then the next year, GM can do it, (HUM what going on here). last week they said it is impossible, and to day there putting them out the line, what would we be driving with out the Japanese influence, cars that be 8 mpg and only last 100,000 miles, or to day were driving 30mpg cars that can last 250,000 miles,
                  Last edited by BHD; 06-14-2011, 08:37 AM.
                  Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
                  attributed to Samuel Johnson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Chinese Junk

                    I shop at Lowes, Home Depot and Harbor Freight.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Chinese Junk

                      BHD, you paint a picture but with all respect, I believe it's not a complete or accurate one.

                      Your comments on the impact of WWII are correct. However you neglect to note that prior to the war the US was already an industrial giant. Our performance in the war was largely due to American factories that were able to convert to military production, flooding the theater with aircraft and other essential military systems.

                      Post war, American industry was and continuest o be responsible for every major development. Taking cars as an example - while I agree that the auto industry made massive errors and were very complacent, it's also true that every major innovation including fuel injection, electronic engine controls, and materials are American developments. This includes paints and plastics, both of which are areas where the US industry, despite its many screwups, led. The errors made were due to a lack of quality and an irrational belief that the US consumer would buy whatever Detroit produced. This proved to be arrogant and wrong. In more recent history, Detroit's very poor leadership focused on short term high profit SUVs and (luxury) trucks, essentially ignoring the car market and allowing the Japanese (and Koreans) to dominate the significant economy car market. When slaes of those expensive vehicles slowed, they were badly hurt. This, along with unsustainable pension and other entitlement costs, caused their problems. Today, the attitude in Detroit has changed and is changing. They are making a very good product, by all accounts, and they are doing a much better job of responsing to market needs.

                      The Japanese were not successful due to their outstanding innovation. Their claim to fame was that they seriously undertook to improve product quality. To accomplish this, they actually did a better job of implementing quality control measures pioneered by American quality gurus, notably W.E. Deming, who taught in Japan in the 1950s. Then, as now, it is "us" that are teaching the world how to kick our own butts. Deming's 7 deadly diseases - while not in any way the entirety of his teaching - are somewhat illustrative:
                      1. Lack of constancy of purpose
                      2. Emphasis on short-term profits
                      3. Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance
                      4. Mobility of management
                      5. Running a company on visible figures alone
                      6. Excessive medical costs
                      7. Excessive costs of warranty, fueled by lawyers who work for contingency fees
                      My point is that Japan excelled because they improved quality, not by virtue of innovation, design or technology. They've largely (not 100%, but mostly) used American innovation, design and technology.

                      At this point, and throughout this decade, Japanese automobiles have not and do not enjoy a price advantage over domestic autos. Quality and innovation have made serious strides in Detroit in this decade. Personally, I believe the Corvette is a world class sports car. I remember when the engine came out, I was in the high performance engine business at the time. Several of us - my local competitors and I - looked at the engine and asked, "what is there left to do that GM hasn't incorporated right from the factory?" The answer is, not much. Today, there are numerous examples of domestic cars ranging from econoboxes to luxury cars (Cadillacs!) that definitely can run with the big dogs. Meanwhile, Toyota - the leading Japanese maker - is suffering through several massive recalls over different issues.

                      The Japanese are not so infallible. And Americans are not so stupid and lazy. Go drive a Cadillac CTS-V and see what you think.

                      I won't defend American automaker tactics and claims that things can't be done, specifically with respect to fuel economy. It's been shameful and embarassing. However, it's also not legitimate to credit the Japanese entirely for advances in auto technology and performance. Certainly, their excellence and competition raised the bar. However, since gas prices started to increase in the states starting in the mid 1970s, internal competition would have undoubtedly responded. While Japanese competition played a significant role, it is not reasonable to conclude that US cars today would be getting 8 mpg as you claimed.

                      Japan and Asia do not have superior modern steels (or any materials for that matter). The finest aerospace and industrial metals, polymers and coatings are still available from the US. Bulk steel production is part of the critical industrial base we have lost, but not because Asia is superior. It is simply more cost effective, in light of the difficulty of operating smokestack industry under the current regulatory environment in the US.... along with the fact that there is little demand in the US since manufacturing has left these shores. Look at the bolts, aluminum alloys, and other materials used in aircraft. These are the best... and they don't come from Asia.

                      Electronics is a another great example. We all think of microcircuits as dominated by Asia. In fact, the chips are largely designed in the US, and produced on nearly completely automated lines. Intel remains the largest producer of microcircuits (not just microprocessorrs used in PCs) in the world - even though a lot of their production is done overseas. The machines that do the production are not Asian, they are almost all designed and manufactured by US makers such as Applied Materials, LAM Research, KLA-Tencor, etc. Again, they are located in Asian factories staffed with Asian workers not because Asians do better than the US, but because the regulatory climate, taxes, and significant expense of operating in the States makes it advantageous to be in Asia.

                      In discussing the rise of Japan, one should not forget that that while Japan enjoyed unrestricted access to US markets, they kept their markets very closed to US exports. If you will recall, there was tremendous controversy and tension in the 70s and 80s over Japanese trade practices, including dumping of goods to undercut US and European competition, Japanese gov't subsidies and insurmoutable barriers to trade. Much of these tactics are being employed today by China. The difference is that US companies have learned that they can avoid the problem by manufacturing their product in China and essentialy becoming an importer into the US. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Unfortunately this results in massive job loss, brain drain and decimation of US industry.

                      Japanese government policies are really only part of the story. In Japan, the culture is such that the people won't buy an American product in preference to a Japanese one. They have no problem paying more, and they have no problem understanding that support of their home industry is important to their long-term health. In fact, there are limits to how long cars are allowed to be on the road in Japan before they can no longer be registered. They're dismantled and the parts notably engines and transmissions - are shipped around the world (including here) and sold as "JDM (Japanese Domestic Market)" used parts. My point is that the culture in Japan is geared at Japan's health. Do we have an equivalent attitude? Not so much.

                      The cheap dollar argument is one promted by the Federal Reserve. Unfortunately, the benefit has been minor. THe problem is that we don't have a lot to export in terms of household items. While China and the US both are neck-and neck in terms of manufacturing, their focus is on consumer and household goods. US manufacturing is centered in high-dollar areas such as aerospace and capital equipment (for example, the semiconductor machines mentioned above). Not a lot of Chinese citizens are going to be buying aerospace stuff any time soon, no matter how cheap the dollar becomes. You may also want to recall that the heyday of the United States as an industrial exporter occured when the dollar was strong, on a gold standard at $35 per oz. In short, the argument about benefits to export are nonsense, meant to justify the devaluation of dollars as the Fed pumps money into our sick economy to prop it up. The real effect is that $10k you had in 1980 is worth $2k in purchasing power today. The other main effect is that, since the world is entirely on fiat currency, weakening the dollar mearely results in other central banks printing more euros, yuan, or yen to maintain the balance. It is unreasonable to believe that any country under a fiat system is going to allow their trade balance to be upset by the US devaluing the dollar. These other countries aren't asleep.

                      Finally, a law to force buying US made is not a good idea or even practical. Not only for the reason you gave (a good one) but also because at this point we don't make enough stuff to satisfy US demand. No one is suggesting a law. We need less government regulation, not more. The government's role in all this should be to incentivize industry - or more properly, to eliminate teh disincentives to industry. Low Asian wages are not really a driving factor. The actual labor content in most mass produced products is a small percentage of the total product cost. The result is that the advantage of offshoring production for most products is 10-15%. That's way too much for a company to absorb ans still remain competitive, but it is something that the US can easily attach via incentives. For example, payroll taxes. US companies pay 6.2% for social security, 2.9% for medicare, and a small amount for SUTA and FUTA taxes. You're looking at over 9% right there. In the US, employers have to shoulder the administrative expenses for health insurance, sexual harassment training, worker's compensation, and on and on (and on). None of this exists in Asia. Do you think that Asian manufacturers have to implement Sarbannes-Oxley accounting, deal with onerous OSHA and EPA reporting requirements, or maintain a legal department to deal with frivolous product liability and safety concerns? Do you think that in Asia the Government is oging to mandate that all table saws have a sawstop? This is being actively drafted by the CPSC right now.

                      My point is, we can have it back. It is NOT about world events, it is about US nonsense that has stacked expense upon expense and suffocated industry. We don't need a legislative solution, we simply need LESS legislative impediments to our competitiveness. Sure, American industry has made many serious mistakes. The notion that they somehow deserve what they get is like cutting on'e nose off to spite one's face. Industry creates jobs. They aren't perfect, haven't been, and will never be perfect. Some will do better than others. Some will fail in the face of competition, be it domestic or global. In the final assessment, the US is really the US economy. And the US economy is really US industry. That lightbulb came on in the 1980s for China, whereas it seems to have burned out for many Americans that apparently have no interest in supporting US industry. It don't get how it can be anything but obvious that the health and future of the United States depends on our ability to compete, and we as Citizens have a duty to support domestic industry.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Chinese Junk

                        Originally posted by frankiarmz View Post
                        that's it? That's the best response you can post? Come on, speak up and explain your answer, it's only the internet.

                        Originally posted by frankiarmz View Post
                        abbott,
                        i won't respond to anymore of your posts,


                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Chinese Junk

                          Originally posted by Abbott View Post

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Chinese Junk

                            Andy M

                            My inlaws had two of the cadillac's. They were nice cars but expensive. 60 grand each i think. The bought his and her cars. His was standard shift and hers was auto. They were very fast. He sold those and she bought one of those saturn two seaters convertible that she loved but sold that and bought a tricked out new Jaguar. He just bought a new corvette.......the damn tailpipes have a switch to change ther sound of the car Its so new I haven't even seen it yet. I'll get some pics.. lol Sick.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Chinese Junk

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              You might want to read how much it's been diluted from last year, could be cheaper to buy an expensive machine. I know it's a lot more fun to use a power tool Always think ahead, what if you get a bigger piece of property some day? Hope you didn't waste you money on a walk behind mower? Go for the riding tractor, it'll come in handy some day.
                              NPR ran a story on roundup a couple of months ago. Apparently it's heavily used by farms. The gist was, like many herbicides and insecticides, resistant strains of weeds are the ones that survive and as a result the roundup is becoming less effective.

                              I just got a "Weed Dragon" - a 100k BTU propane torch that wilts and kills weeds. This thing has some grunt! Waaaaay more fun than the pump sprayer, and cheaper over time than roundup, too.

                              And - are you sitting down - Made in USA.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Chinese Junk

                                Here's some more good news about manufacturing reshoring (moving back to the US).

                                Wham-O Moves to America


                                http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/th...xrs=share_copy
                                Last edited by Bob D.; 07-10-2011, 12:14 PM.
                                "When we build let us think we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work that our descendants will thank us for, and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone, that a time is to come when these stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, "See! This our fathers did for us."
                                John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X