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No Foul AZ Solution

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  • #16
    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

    Mark, how dare you quote the law. That's just not fair
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    • #17
      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

      I know we are each expressing our thoughts and wheter or not we can back them up with facts, the problems surrounding this subject still remain.

      I would really like to see the millions of illegals who are established in the USA, raising families, working and leading decent lives, accounted for and dealt with in a fair and practical manner.

      I don't see immigration reform as the complete answer to this problem, as long as mexico remains a violent, corrupt hell hole, desperate people will risk their lives to come here. Criminals will take there chances with easy going Americans and our laws, rather than face mexican justice if caught breaking the law.

      What AZ did was desperate and courageous, but the attitude and actions of the fed dam the illegals to limbo and the American public to higher taxes and more crime.

      Chances are this administration will not resolve the problem, and unfortunately given the past, the next administration will do the same.

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      • #18
        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

        Like I said, the first time an illegal alien is caught it is a misdemeanor. The reason it is not considered a felony is because the person can be returned to the proper side of the border without the bother of a trial.

        If you want to make it a felony then they will be subject to all the constitutional requirements of a criminal trial.

        It appears that the law is far more strict on Americans aiding and abetting illegals. These laws have been virtually ignored over the years. How many folks knowingly hire workers that are illegals or do business with companies that employ illegals? I suspect more than a fair number.

        Complaining about illegals is like complaining about bears pillaging a picnic basket left out on the picnic table.

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        • #19
          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
          Like I said, the first time an illegal alien is caught it is a misdemeanor. The reason it is not considered a felony is because the person can be returned to the proper side of the border without the bother of a trial.

          If you want to make it a felony then they will be subject to all the constitutional requirements of a criminal trial.

          It appears that the law is far more strict on Americans aiding and abetting illegals. These laws have been virtually ignored over the years. How many folks knowingly hire workers that are illegals or do business with companies that employ illegals? I suspect more than a fair number.

          Complaining about illegals is like complaining about bears pillaging a picnic basket left out on the picnic table.
          The Arizona Law includes language which will suspend the employers licenses for violating the law. That means restaurants would lose health license and contractors would lose contractor license and such.

          Mark
          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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          • #20
            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
            The Arizona Law includes language which will suspend the employers licenses for violating the law. That means restaurants would lose health license and contractors would lose contractor license and such.

            Mark
            Mark, I agree that somethings must change, but if one out of every ten folks in AZ is an illegal I would imagine enforcing such penalties would have a devistating ripple effect. Businesses that employ illegals would likely fold and so would businesses that depend on illegals. I think there needs to be a transitional phase, our economy is too shakey for sweeping changes.

            I still think the action by AZ should be more of a motivation for the fed to ramp up the much needed legislation to deal with an out of control and deeply rooted problem that effects us as much as the illegals.

            Sure, if one out of every hundred folks in AZ was an illegal, you could enforce current laws and not disrupt much, one out of ten is a whole different story.

            Imagine if you could press a button and instantly every single illegal was deported? Might sound like a quick fix, but it would probably result in devistating consequences.

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            • #21
              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

              The law should be the same as if I went to Mexico to work.

              theirs is strict. look it up.

              to the so called good illegals. (not directed at any posters)

              If you can live here and raise your family for many years.

              why cant you apply to be a citizen and do it right?

              do not just hang out and say you deserve rights.

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              • #22
                Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                Originally posted by ranman View Post
                The law should be the same as if I went to Mexico to work.

                theirs is strict. look it up.

                to the so called good illegals. (not directed at any posters)

                If you can live here and raise your family for many years.

                why cant you apply to be a citizen and do it right?

                do not just hang out and say you deserve rights.

                Because you will get your *** shipped back to where you came from. It's not that easy. I'd be willing to bet if illegal immigrants could afford to apply for legal resident status before they entered the US they would.


                Every human deserves basic human rights, not just US citizens.

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                • #23
                  Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                  Franki - there was a study (U of Arizona?) on the economic effect of illegal aliens in Arizona. It has a net positive effect.

                  If the law were applied as it is written, there would be have been regular bus trip to the border dropping off illegals, businesses closing their doors and members of the chamber of commerce in jail.

                  Face it, whether you want to call it an oligarchy or corporatocracy, illegals are here because it is good for business. And there is nothing you or I can do to change this dynamic.

                  We are content to allow wall street to continue to rob us blind, BP to destroy the environment, Tyson and Hormel to employ masses of illegals, the local landscape, construction or roofing company that uses illegals.

                  Just watch. There will be apologists for big business. Until we can all agree that illegals are the symptom not the disease, nothing will change.

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                  • #24
                    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                    Franki - there was a study (U of Arizona?) on the economic effect of illegal aliens in Arizona. It has a net positive effect.

                    If the law were applied as it is written, there would be have been regular bus trip to the border dropping off illegals, businesses closing their doors and members of the chamber of commerce in jail.

                    Face it, whether you want to call it an oligarchy or corporatocracy, illegals are here because it is good for business. And there is nothing you or I can do to change this dynamic.

                    We are content to allow wall street to continue to rob us blind, BP to destroy the environment, Tyson and Hormel to employ masses of illegals, the local landscape, construction or roofing company that uses illegals.

                    Just watch. There will be apologists for big business. Until we can all agree that illegals are the symptom not the disease, nothing will change.
                    Beg to differ with you about Tyson. Now another local poultry producer, who by the way the CEO and the Dickster Cheney are the best of buddies hires any warm body that walks through the door. Funny thing is, they are never raided. The mom and pop hispanic businesses are raided constantly.

                    Tyson has a very strict policy concerning documentation.

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                    • #25
                      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                      Originally posted by James P View Post
                      Because you will get your *** shipped back to where you came from. It's not that easy. I'd be willing to bet if illegal immigrants could afford to apply for legal resident status before they entered the US they would.


                      Every human deserves basic human rights, not just US citizens.
                      Adding to that to immigrate legally you're looking at an average of 7000 dollars in application fees and cost in lawyers.

                      You could do the work yourself(somehow I doubt the average unskilled worker could manage that) and get your cost down to a mere 1000 dollars in application fees. Of course if you choose to navigate the system yourself it could easily take over 30 years to complete that process. Even with the legal assistance a 30 year wait is possible but much less likely. During that time if you are found to be out of the country of which your applying they'll scrap that process and force start over and you'll likely be denied

                      'Just come here legally' sounds like a rational and fair statement from our side but from the point of view to an unskilled immigrant it's a crappy option.

                      We can enforce our borders and apply tougher penalties for breaking out immigration laws, thus making it an even crappier option then absorbent costs and enormous waits. It may even stop the flow of illegal immigrants but what is really the goal? Give people we need for economic growth a choice between a crappy option and an even crappier one?

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                      • #26
                        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                        Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                        Adding to that to immigrate legally you're looking at an average of 7000 dollars in application fees and cost in lawyers.

                        You could do the work yourself(somehow I doubt the average unskilled worker could manage that) and get your cost down to a mere 1000 dollars in application fees. Of course if you choose to navigate the system yourself it could easily take over 30 years to complete that process. Even with the legal assistance a 30 year wait is possible but much less likely. During that time if you are found to be out of the country of which your applying they'll scrap that process and force start over and you'll likely be denied

                        'Just come here legally' sounds like a rational and fair statement from our side but from the point of view to an unskilled immigrant it's a crappy option.

                        We can enforce our borders and apply tougher penalties for breaking out immigration laws, thus making it an even crappier option then absorbent costs and enormous waits. It may even stop the flow of illegal immigrants but what is really the goal? Give people we need for economic growth a choice between a crappy option and an even crappier one?
                        I agree that to come here legally even if an easy option, is not practical for some. That does not mean we can continue to play host for the many illegals that are here and continue to come. If our illegal poplulation was limited to "unskilled" migrant workers, I would say they fill a void in our economy, however there are many semi-skilled and skilled workers here illegally. There are many stay at home Moms, and children, going to our schools and using our hospitals. They put a burden on our economy, and the wage earners for these families do not, cannot contribute to the tax base. I'm afraid the issue is far more complicated than you describe and the resolve will need to be just as complex.

                        Our economic survival and hopefully growth, must depend on a numbers of things, sustainable private sector jobs, reasonable government spending and a balanced budget, fair and balanced trade, cuts to government programs and foreign spending, and many other far more painful but necessary steps. Cheap, unskilled labor is keeping some businesses afloat but cannot be used as a blanket pass for being here illegally. It's just not so simple.

                        We still need to address conditions in mexico beyond securing our borders. I think we are being very foolish to think we can allow drug gangs in mexico to over run that country, forcing decent folks to risk their lives coming here, and that building a fence will make it all better. Mexico is too close to be so violent and corrupt. We would not tolerate a next door neighbor whose home and property was a scene for drugs, criminal gangs, shoot outs and all sorts of violent crimes.

                        Force mexico to be a better place, we do a good job of forcing our will around the world, so why not right here where it is desperately needed?

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                        • #27
                          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          Force mexico to be a better place, we do a good job of forcing our will around the world, so why not right here where it is desperately needed?
                          We can throw as much force at that issue as we want but why is Mexico that type of place in the first place? Who's drug habits are those Mexican gangs feeding? Who has forced the cost of drugs so high it is profitable for gangs to take up arms against governments.

                          American drug habits combined with the American war on drugs destroys whole countries. We are not blameless victims. The crime that is rampant in Mexico isn't due to only Mexicans, they can't afford expensive drug habits. Drug dealers aren't traveling across our borders because they like the scenery. They come and continue to come because we are the most profitable drug users in the world, they are just good capitalists.

                          The reason we don't force Mexico to be a better place is in my opinion we don't do a lot of things. We'd rather have someone else to blame then look in the mirror. Problem doesn't go away if we find somewhere else to place blame but at least in the meantime we can keep claiming we are the good guys.

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                          • #28
                            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                            Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                            We can throw as much force at that issue as we want but why is Mexico that type of place in the first place? Who's drug habits are those Mexican gangs feeding? Who has forced the cost of drugs so high it is profitable for gangs to take up arms against governments.

                            American drug habits combined with the American war on drugs destroys whole countries. We are not blameless victims. The crime that is rampant in Mexico isn't due to only Mexicans, they can't afford expensive drug habits. Drug dealers aren't traveling across our borders because they like the scenery. They come and continue to come because we are the most profitable drug users in the world, they are just good capitalists.

                            The reason we don't force Mexico to be a better place is in my opinion we don't do a lot of things. We'd rather have someone else to blame then look in the mirror. Problem doesn't go away if we find somewhere else to place blame but at least in the meantime we can keep claiming we are the good guys.
                            There is no question that drugs coming into our country supply our country's needs, that does not excuse the situation in mexico or make it legal to traffic or use drugs here. I'm not excusing the part of Americans who use drugs or profit from them, But, at the same time I am not excusing the government of mexico for not taking control of that cess pool, or the drug gangs who have ruined their country and are doing the same here.

                            There are good guys in this story, they are the decent folks escaping the hell of mexico, and they are the decent Americans who must pay for the services the illegals use. The good guys are the same Americans caught up in the violence visited by the drug gangs and other criminals crossing over from mexico.

                            Do you really feel at ease shifting All the blame on us ugly Americans? In your world, is everyone free of guilt if you can pin it on America?

                            I can tell you as a parent, I was never one of those "Not MY Kid" types. You screw up, you take your share of the blame. There is wealth here and that will always draw criminals looking to profit, that does not doom all Americans to house illegals, pay their share of taxes and become victims of their criminal element.

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                            • #29
                              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              Do you really feel at ease shifting All the blame on us ugly Americans? In your world, is everyone free of guilt if you can pin it on America?
                              No in my world there is plenty of blame to go around. Blaming people doesn't solve problems but recognizing the guilty all parties is where we should start.

                              America has a long history of taking stances of moral correctness then making policy. We fail to examine if the moral stance is a good idea to begin with.

                              In this immigration debate many are taking the stance we are morally correct in criminalizing those who do not navigate through a complex bureaucracy. Sure they are correct in the moral stance, it is wrong to not follow the law. Doe that make it good policy however?

                              If tomorrow we reverted back to Ellis isle immigration forms and allowed anyone who wished to fill one out and become a citizen what would happen? A fiery apocalypse? It made our country good back then when we needed immigrants. We still need immigrants, today what is so different?

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                              • #30
                                Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                                Originally posted by James P View Post
                                Because you will get your *** shipped back to where you came from. It's not that easy. I'd be willing to bet if illegal immigrants could afford to apply for legal resident status before they entered the US they would.


                                Every human deserves basic human rights, not just US citizens.

                                but as citizens we have the right to know who is coming into the country right? this is the problem.

                                they pay thousands to guys to help sneak them in. couldn't they use that money?

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