Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

No Foul AZ Solution

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

    Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
    No in my world there is plenty of blame to go around. Blaming people doesn't solve problems but recognizing the guilty all parties is where we should start.

    America has a long history of taking stances of moral correctness then making policy. We fail to examine if the moral stance is a good idea to begin with.

    In this immigration debate many are taking the stance we are morally correct in criminalizing those who do not navigate through a complex bureaucracy. Sure they are correct in the moral stance, it is wrong to not follow the law. Doe that make it good policy however?

    If tomorrow we reverted back to Ellis isle immigration forms and allowed anyone who wished to fill one out and become a citizen what would happen? A fiery apocalypse? It made our country good back then when we needed immigrants. We still need immigrants, today what is so different?
    Much is different today, our economy is in ruins, Americans losing their job and homes, our government in debt. America is not the nation of unhampered growth, it is a nation fighting wars it cannot pay for, it is on the losing side of global trade. The times your refer to represented people looking for streets paved with gold, a place to start a new life.

    Today we have millions of people living right next door to our country, who decided to make their own rules and ignore our laws. That is different from the days of ellis island. Today, these people who come here illegally earn income that is never taxed and when sent back home, never returns to our economy. Today these people who are not legal immigrants and not allowed into our society by our rules, make use of our schoold, hospitals and other community services at great cost to the tax payers.

    Back in the days of ellis island the was no cancer treatment, kidney dialysis and other big ticket medical procedures to recoup, teachers did not earn such salaries, neither did police and they did not need college educations. The cost of range of our services and society is very different from those old days and the need to carefully gauge who enters our country is also very different.

    The need exists for a brilliant, and sensitive plan, something that protects America, and our citizens, something that stops the human trafficking and culture of abuse for illegals. Calling for them to all go home, or allowing them to all stay the way they are, is not the answer in my opinion.

    Caring people don't defend breaking the law or punishing folks for doing what has been allowed for years. America can be made secure, safe and solvent. Illegals can be treated both fairly and sternly, these things can coexist if the government is willing to invest in solutions. But great legislators have gone the way of ellis island.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

      I think you missed my point. The solution may not be to offer endless amnesty but my complaint is why is the only option that is allowed to be considered punishment?

      People have taken a moral stance that illegal immigrants must be punished and the only ends they are willing to consider are ones in which that happens.

      Why are only some solutions allowed on the table shouldn't we be taking a look at all the options and coming up with the best ones for America. I don't want laws made by caring people I want them made by rational ones.

      More importantly why isn't the issue on the table being discussed or why wasn't an answer given last time it was on the table. Our legislators voted to stop that debate. Here is a list of how they voted.

      http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=1&vote=00206

      Those that voted yea where voting to debate the issue. If this is a problem we expect our legislators to solve, Why was nay an acceptable answer? Why would we reelect those people?

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

        Why is it punishment to take away what was never theirs? I want laws made by people who will enforce them or there is no reason to have laws. This isn't all about Obama it was Clinton and Bush before him. Obama just happens to be the guy on the hot-seat now. One of the biggest criticism the Bush supporters had is he would not secure the borders.

        On a personal note, I posted on this site before I have a friend who is an illegal alien. She told us the Arizona Law is much more lax than Mexico’s law. She has never been deported but she has made several trips between Guatemala and the United States for family reasons. Each time she pays $1,000+ to have someone bring her back into the country.

        About 5-weeks ago she called me from a parking lot and told me her truck had been impounded. The officer had her unload all of her belongings right there in the parking lot and put a 30-day hold on her truck. She told me she had been stopped for talking on her cell phone. She went on to explain the law should not have applied as she was at a stop light waiting for the light to change. bI loaded all of her stuff in my truck and drove her home

        At one time she had a drivers license but the DMV would not renew it because they found out her SS card was fake. When the officer asked her if she had a license she said she told him "You know I don't have a license, you impounded my truck last time". If she had just said no, they would have taken her keys and left her truck for her legal son to pick up. She feels it the DMV’s fault because they would not give her a license.

        She bought her truck new using someone else’s name. She purchased insurance in the registered owner’s name. She paid her truck off and always kept up on her insurance. When her truck gets impounded it costs her $150 in tow fees, $1,500 in storage fees and $500 for the register owner to take care of the paperwork ($2,150 total). Because this is not the first time it has happened I asked what it would cost her to get her citizenship. Her friend at her house said she had to pay $350 for the initial paperwork, $1,000 to finalize her paperwork and it took a matter of weeks.

        The bottom line is she feels entitled. It is her belief that she is here so deal with her. As far as I know she is a hard worker, she is not on food stamps or subsidizes rent but her and her son both get free medical at the ER. I will be sad if she is ever deported but she has lived through two amnesties and can get her citizenship for a little work and $1,350 but has chose not to.
        Mark
        Last edited by ToUtahNow; 05-25-2010, 08:42 PM.
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

          Two things Mark:

          1) I'm familiar with the law, but I do not recognize any of her children as legal. That needs to be changed. NOW.

          2) Is it not your duty as an American Citizen to turn her in as soon as you became aware of her illegality? Shouldn't everyone do this?

          J.C.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

            Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
            Two things Mark:

            1) I'm familiar with the law, but I do not recognize any of her children as legal. That needs to be changed. NOW.

            2) Is it not your duty as an American Citizen to turn her in as soon as you became aware of her illegality? Shouldn't everyone do this?

            J.C.
            1. I agree 100%.

            2. Who would I turn her into? This is California and neither the State nor the Feds would do anything. She was arrested once about 20-years ago for a fight in a bar. When she was released from jail she was not deported she just went home.

            I only found out a few years ago she was not a citizen. All of her siblings became citizens through amnesty. She said she thought they would deport her if she showed up.

            Mark
            Last edited by ToUtahNow; 05-25-2010, 09:01 PM.
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              1. I agree 100%.

              2. Who would I turn her into? This is California and neither the State nor the Feds would do anything. She was arrested once about 20-years ago for a fight in a bar. When she was released from jail she was not deported she just went home.

              I only found out a few years ago she was not a citizen. All of her siblings became citizens through amnesty. She said she thought they would deport her if she should up.

              Mark
              I understand your position. Most would have the same situation. I can't help thinking that the State and Feds don't do anything because the masses of U.S. citizens don't do anything.

              J.C.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                There are people whose opinions have articulated a punitive element in their desire to have illegals deported. Perhaps this has gone unrecognized by some, but there is a lot of displaced anger out there pointed at the symptom and not the root of the problem.

                Blame can continue to be misplaced solely at the feet of the illegals. It is far easier to blame a nameless face or group of people than it is to blame the small business owner that hires illegals to mow your yard, put a new roof on your house or clean your house.

                Illegals are here to stay. A pragmatic solution should provide the least amount of disruption in local economies while garnering the greatest participation by illegals seeking permanent citizenship.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                  Originally posted by JCsPlumbing View Post
                  I understand your position. Most would have the same situation. I can't help thinking that the State and Feds don't do anything because the masses of U.S. citizens don't do anything.

                  J.C.
                  I tend to believe the State and Feds don't do anything because it is not popular. Look at the ICE guy now who said he will not take the illegals which are arrested in Arizona.

                  Many years ago there was a bad accident on the Highway in front of my place in Utah. It involved a single truck which was loaded with illegal aliens traveling from Arizona to Colorado. The driver was transported to the hospital and everyone else took off running. Over the next week or so my neighbors found everyone from the truck and gave them first aid and a place to stay.

                  My neighbors made continual calls to Immigration and no one ever showed up to pick them up. After a couple of weeks the injured illegal was released and brought back to my neighbors. Because housing a dozen or so illegals was costing a fortune and Immigration never showed up for them, my neighbors took a collection and bought Greyhound tickets for them and sent them on to Colorado.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                    I tend to believe the State and Feds don't do anything because it is not popular. Look at the ICE guy now who said he will not take the illegals which are arrested in Arizona.

                    Many years ago there was a bad accident on the Highway in front of my place in Utah. It involved a single truck which was loaded with illegal aliens traveling from Arizona to Colorado. The driver was transported to the hospital and everyone else took off running. Over the next week or so my neighbors found everyone from the truck and gave them first aid and a place to stay.

                    My neighbors made continual calls to Immigration and no one ever showed up to pick them up. After a couple of weeks the injured illegal was released and brought back to my neighbors. Because housing a dozen or so illegals was costing a fortune and Immigration never showed up for them, my neighbors took a collection and bought Greyhound tickets for them and sent them on to Colorado.

                    Mark
                    Bad neighbor.

                    One thing I've said before, simply put a $10,000 fine for any incident of an illegal doing work here towards any person employing them.

                    Either by employer OR consumer. That's the only thing they will have to enforce.

                    IT WILL END THE MAJORITY OF THIS.

                    J.C.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                      I agree that not enough penalty is being levied on the business or individual who are knowingly hiring illegals. I understand the plight of the poor worker and thank God that none of us have been faced with leaving our country in order to support our families (well actually, that isn't realy true is it... a heck of a lot of our friends have found themselves in Iraq and Afganistan).

                      Unfortunately, it appear that only the migrant "illegal" is being charged. I strongely feel that there needs to be a government system in place where employers are "cleared" to hire foreign nationals, if it is proven necessary to fill jobs. But of course it needs to be without massive, time-consuming red tape too. Without such a "visiting worker" plan, there's no fair way to regulate the flow of illegal workers. But, hiring a foreign worker should be with the same conditions has hiring and American worker... it must pay a competitive wage, benefits, and environmental concerns. In other words, there should be no "advantage" to an employer for hiring a foreign national.

                      When an employer is found to be using "illegals", they should be heavily fined or even jailed if it proves to be a repeat offense.

                      The other big change that I would make, is that we stop this policy which automatically grants citizenship to anyone who is born here. I think that is a right that was put in place far too long ago, when the world was much less mobile. Today it is far too easy to enter the U.S., have your baby and thus guarantee that you child has rights by reason of geographical birthplace. I wonder how many other countries offer such "birthrights".

                      If you are by chance born in this country, with parents who are citizens, then that is of course rightful. But if your parents are just visiting or are undocumented, or even here on a temporary visa, that should NOT automatically guarantee the baby U.S. citizenship!

                      CWS

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                        Originally posted by ranman View Post
                        but as citizens we have the right to know who is coming into the country right? this is the problem.

                        they pay thousands to guys to help sneak them in. couldn't they use that money?
                        Usually paid by the recruiters.

                        I read an article a few years ago about a building contractor in Colorado who was paying $1500 a head to smuggle illegals across the border.
                        Last edited by James P; 05-26-2010, 11:16 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                          Originally posted by James P View Post
                          [/B]

                          Usually paid by the recruiters.

                          I read an article a few years ago about a builing contractor in Colorado who was paying $1500 a head to smuggle illegals across the border.
                          Why in the world would they need to pay a recruiter when they are already flooding into the Country for free?

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                            Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                            Why in the world would they need to pay a recruiter when they are already flooding into the Country for free?

                            Mark
                            Skilled and semi skilled workers. I guess

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                              Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                              There are people whose opinions have articulated a punitive element in their desire to have illegals deported. Perhaps this has gone unrecognized by some, but there is a lot of displaced anger out there pointed at the symptom and not the root of the problem.

                              Blame can continue to be misplaced solely at the feet of the illegals. It is far easier to blame a nameless face or group of people than it is to blame the small business owner that hires illegals to mow your yard, put a new roof on your house or clean your house.

                              Illegals are here to stay. A pragmatic solution should provide the least amount of disruption in local economies while garnering the greatest participation by illegals seeking permanent citizenship.
                              Spiff, I do not agree that blame should be placed "solely" with the illegals, but to not hold them responsible for their part is wrong. As for them being here to stay, I disagree. The damage to our economy for providing services for which these people do not contribute through taxes has become more and more obvious. The increase in crime resulting for illegals here to deal drugs and commit violent crimes is also a problem that is more and more evident. Proper legislation and enforcement will result in illegals who will stay to become Americans and pay taxes, along with secure borders.

                              I still think part of the problem is the free for all taking place in mexico. I would withdraw some troops from overseas and invade that cess pool to make it safe for their police to take control which they have lost.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                                Originally posted by James P View Post
                                Skilled and semi skilled workers. I guess
                                Illegal aliens have been in the Construction Industry for over 30-years already. I just don't see why anyone would pay a third party to sneak someone into the Country when all they have to do is tell their illegal employees they need more help. I remember how ridiculous it seemed in the early 80s when the non-union illegal drywall hangers went on strike. Of course once they got what they were asking for it became evident the Feds just didn't care.

                                Mark
                                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X