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  • No Foul AZ Solution

    Critics of the AZ law that requires police officers to question the immigration status of people stopped for violations of any law, are calling the law racist. They say that police officers will be singling out hispanics. What would happen if the police questioned all the patrons in a store, entire lines of traffic, everyone in hospital ER, or all the parents of children attending school? IF the police were to question broad groups of people would that also be considered profiling? Isn't the real problem that some folks just plain don't want the problem addressed? I say bring it to a head by detaining entire groups of people and arresting those without legal citizenship. I'm willing to bet that in AZ restaurants and other businesses would be forced to close, but it will take that kind of pressure to get the federal gov't moving.

    IF you don't want illegals deported, fine. Build a border so secure that no one can get in, OR out! Force the illegals who are here to either leave, or if they wish to stay, pay into supporting our government. Get an accounting of who is in our country and make them pay taxes if they wish to stay. But don't let them leave if they are earning income and refuse to become legal!

  • #2
    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

    Where do I sign.
    Illegal immigration is choking out the american.

    At least the ones like myself.

    Pigs don't count in my book

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

      From what I have been able to find, entering the country illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. It is not a felony. Getting a speeding ticket is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. I don't think a state can make a civil offense at the federal level a criminal offense at the state level. I may be wrong.

      Apparently the Arizona law classifies illegal aliens as criminal since they can be arrested/detained. If indeed being a illegal alien is a criminal offense, then the detainee is afforded the constitutional protections one is entitled to in the criminal justice system.

      If being illegal is a civil offense, like a speeding ticket, there is no constitutional requirement.

      I understand people want justice, but using the legal system to extract the brand of justice people desire is an exercise in futility.
      Last edited by SpiffPeters; 05-23-2010, 10:17 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

        Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
        From what I have been able to find, entering the country illegally is a civil offense, not a crime. Getting a speeding ticket is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. I don't think a state can make a civil offense at the federal level a criminal offense at the state level. I may be wrong.

        Apparently the Arizona law classifies illegal aliens as criminal since they can be arrested/detained. If indeed being a illegal alien is a criminal offense, then the detainee is afforded the constitutional protections one is entitled to in the criminal justice system.

        If being illegal is a civil offense, like a speeding ticket, there is no constitutional requirement.

        I understand people want justice, but using the legal system to extract the brand of justice people desire is an exercise in futility.
        I think one of the things you are missing is what the law is really doing is making it illegal not to enforce existing Federal Law.

        NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY LIMIT OR RESTRICT THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.


        Next it goes on to make it illegal to not comply with existing Federal Law as regards to documentation.



        IN ADDITION TO ANY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, A PERSON IS GUILTY OF WILLFUL FAILURE TO COMPLETE OR CARRY AN ALIEN REGISTRATION DOCUMENT IF THE PERSON IS IN VIOLATION OF UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1304(e) OR 1306(a).



        It does add Human Smuggling as a crime but I am sure that is already a Felony anyways.



        It is unlawful for a person to intentionally engage in the smuggling of human beings for profit or commercial purpose.


        It makes it illegal for those picking up day laborers.


        IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR AN OCCUPANT OF A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY TO ATTEMPT TO HIRE OR HIRE AND PICK UP PASSENGERS FOR WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.



        I could go on but I don't see a problem with this law.



        Mark



        Last edited by ToUtahNow; 05-23-2010, 11:05 PM.
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

          not much different than the California law,

          California penal code 834b the quote is from the "Welcome to the official site for California legislative information." http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/

          http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...ile=833-851.90

          834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
          cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
          Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
          suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
          federal immigration laws.
          (b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
          of being present in the United States in violation of federal
          immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
          following:
          (1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
          of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
          resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
          or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
          immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
          be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
          place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
          documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
          (2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
          who is present in the United States in violation of federal
          immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
          justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
          leave the United States.
          (3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
          States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
          status and provide any additional information that may be requested
          by any other public entity.
          (c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
          county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
          jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
          or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
          prohibited.
          Push sticks/blocks Save Fingers
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
          attributed to Samuel Johnson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          PUBLIC NOTICE: Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current state of the economy............the light at the end of the tunnel, has been turned off.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
            From what I have been able to find, entering the country illegally is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. It is not a felony. Getting a speeding ticket is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. I don't think a state can make a civil offense at the federal level a criminal offense at the state level. I may be wrong.

            Apparently the Arizona law classifies illegal aliens as criminal since they can be arrested/detained. If indeed being a illegal alien is a criminal offense, then the detainee is afforded the constitutional protections one is entitled to in the criminal justice system.

            If being illegal is a civil offense, like a speeding ticket, there is no constitutional requirement.

            I understand people want justice, but using the legal system to extract the brand of justice people desire is an exercise in futility.
            Spiff, you really think someone who enters our country illegally is not a criminal and is "entitled" to constitutional protections? Even though they violated our constitutional law getting here? IF it wasn't so sad it would be comical. Sorry, I just have to disagree. I say strengthen the border and whoever is here gets a choice to either go or stay and pay taxes. Jack up the folks hiring the illegals and introduce them to our legal system as well.

            Our weak borders are being used like a revolving door by some and if they knew there was no going back, if our borders were not a world class joke, things might be different.

            I wonder if mexico's president calderon would extend such gracious legal rights to illegals in his country?
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDb5pX-Dt_I

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

              I think the no foul solution would be for the federal gov to enforce the laws that are on the books now.
              Cheers
              DCT Siding

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Spiff, you really think someone who enters our country illegally is not a criminal and is "entitled" to constitutional protections? Even though they violated our constitutional law getting here? IF it wasn't so sad it would be comical. Sorry, I just have to disagree. I say strengthen the border and whoever is here gets a choice to either go or stay and pay taxes. Jack up the folks hiring the illegals and introduce them to our legal system as well.

                Our weak borders are being used like a revolving door by some and if they knew there was no going back, if our borders were not a world class joke, things might be different.

                I wonder if mexico's president calderon would extend such gracious legal rights to illegals in his country?
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDb5pX-Dt_I
                Entering the US illegal is technically as much of a crime as is getting a speeding ticket. If caught a second time, then it becomes a felony.

                If you want to throw people in jail for entering illegally, then to be legally consistent you would have to jail people receiving traffic infractions.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                  Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                  Entering the US illegal is technically as much of a crime as is getting a speeding ticket. If caught a second time, then it becomes a felony.

                  If you want to throw people in jail for entering illegally, then to be legally consistent you would have to jail people receiving traffic infractions.
                  So you are saying not enforcing Immigration laws is like not enforcing speeding laws. I wonder where that would leave us? It sounds pretty dangerous to me.

                  No one wants first time illegal immigrants to go to jail, they want them to go home. However, instead they get a Court date and move further into the shadows never to be seen again (until the next time).

                  What we need to do is keep them out in the first place. Once the border is secure, than a common sense guest worker program should be discussed.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                    I was addressing Frank's comment about the legality of illegal aliens. If the legal penalty of entering the US illegally is a civil offense, a misdemeanor, then there is no constitutional matter.

                    If it is a felony, then they are indeed afforded the rights under the US constitution. By what other law shall we prosecute felons?

                    Entering the US is as much a matter for the criminal court system as is getting a speeding ticket or jay walking.

                    And yes, of course the US should be securing the border. The numbers indicate that the illegal population is in decline and has been since at least 2008. The numbers coming over the border have also declined dramatically in the same period.

                    I am all for a program that allows illegal aliens to gain legal status without sending them back to Mexico, Central and South America. Many people on the other hand want these folks deported because they broke the law. And while they indeed broke the law, the penalty for that law is no more severe than the penalty for a speeding ticket. Would you consider being kicked out of your home state for breaking the speed limit a reasonable and just penalty?

                    If folks think the penalty for illegally entering the country is to relaxed then they need to tell the congressman. I do think the law is to relaxed. Perhaps fifty or sixty years ago illegal it wasn't an issue.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                      I was addressing Frank's comment about the legality of illegal aliens. If the legal penalty of entering the US illegally is a civil offense, a misdemeanor, then there is no constitutional matter.

                      If it is a felony, then they are indeed afforded the rights under the US constitution. By what other law shall we prosecute felons?

                      Entering the US is as much a matter for the criminal court system as is getting a speeding ticket or jay walking.

                      And yes, of course the US should be securing the border. The numbers indicate that the illegal population is in decline and has been since at least 2008. The numbers coming over the border have also declined dramatically in the same period.

                      I am all for a program that allows illegal aliens to gain legal status without sending them back to Mexico, Central and South America. Many people on the other hand want these folks deported because they broke the law. And while they indeed broke the law, the penalty for that law is no more severe than the penalty for a speeding ticket. Would you consider being kicked out of your home state for breaking the speed limit a reasonable and just penalty?

                      If folks think the penalty for illegally entering the country is to relaxed then they need to tell the congressman. I do think the law is to relaxed. Perhaps fifty or sixty years ago illegal it wasn't an issue.
                      I'm sorry but we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps the punishment for a speeding is a ticket but you are also suppose to stop speeding. When an illegal alien breaks the law they are suppose to stop breaking the law. By staying in the United States or by returning at a later date they are continuing to break the law.

                      Now consider the fact California will not enforce the law, what is the deterrent for not breaking the law? If we decide to not enforce speeding laws do you think there will be less speeding? There was a report today on the news which reported an illegal alien who has been deported 9-times was just arrested for rape. How long should we continue to look the other way with illegal aliens?

                      Mark
                      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                        Spiff, maybe this will clear up whether entering our country illegally is a civil or criminal offense?

                        "While it is considered a civil offense to be in this country without proper documentation, such a distinction is only relevant for those who entered the country legally, and who obtained proper documentation upon entering. See, those documents invariably include a time period in which the holder is legally entitled to remain in the country. When that time period expires, and the party has taken no action to extend the time period or leave, that person may then be held to the civil penalties that come from "Illegal presence in the U.S."

                        Those who do not have, and have never had, proper documentation for being in the U.S. have de facto entered this country illegally. Illegal entry is when someone enters the country at any time, in any place, or any manner other than those determined by our immigration service. If they enter legally, there is a record somewhere of their presence, and they may be kept track of.

                        If they enter illegally, however, they have violated criminal law and are subject to imprisonment. Sure it's only 6 months for a first offense (after that it becomes a felony), but it's still a criminal penalty, not a civil one."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                          Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                          Spiff, maybe this will clear up whether entering our country illegally is a civil or criminal offense?

                          "While it is considered a civil offense to be in this country without proper documentation, such a distinction is only relevant for those who entered the country legally, and who obtained proper documentation upon entering. See, those documents invariably include a time period in which the holder is legally entitled to remain in the country. When that time period expires, and the party has taken no action to extend the time period or leave, that person may then be held to the civil penalties that come from "Illegal presence in the U.S."

                          Those who do not have, and have never had, proper documentation for being in the U.S. have de facto entered this country illegally. Illegal entry is when someone enters the country at any time, in any place, or any manner other than those determined by our immigration service. If they enter legally, there is a record somewhere of their presence, and they may be kept track of.

                          If they enter illegally, however, they have violated criminal law and are subject to imprisonment. Sure it's only 6 months for a first offense (after that it becomes a felony), but it's still a criminal penalty, not a civil one."
                          What law are you citing? Who are you citing?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                            What law are you citing? Who are you citing?
                            Blaggle
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: No Foul AZ Solution

                              8 U.S.C. ยง 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien

                              (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
                              misrepresentation and concealment of facts
                              Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
                              at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
                              officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
                              officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
                              States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
                              willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
                              commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
                              imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
                              commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
                              imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
                              (b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
                              Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
                              enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
                              designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
                              penalty of -
                              (1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
                              attempted entry); or
                              (2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
                              an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
                              this subsection.
                              Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
                              in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
                              imposed.
                              (c) Marriage fraud
                              Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
                              purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
                              imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
                              $250,000, or both.
                              (d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
                              Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise
                              for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws
                              shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance
                              with title 18, or both.

                              This is the interesting one because it is a Felony just to let them stay with you. So if two guys are roommates and are found to be illegal they will catch the misdemeanor for first offense illegal entry and a Felony for sheltering each other.

                              Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
                              A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
                              * assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
                              * encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
                              * knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
                              Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

                              Mark
                              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                              Comment

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