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  • #16
    Re: Playing Politics

    Don't forget that illegal immigration brings forth human traffiking and all the nastiness that goes with it: forced prostitution, slavery, and human rights abuses for starters.

    Tell me how allowing "undocumented workers" does no harm again?

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    • #17
      Re: Playing Politics

      I can understand many things but for the life of me I can not understand how anyone can defend illegal immigration.
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Re: Playing Politics

        Maybe if we started calling drug dealers "undocumented pharmacists" we could legalize them, too.
        When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Playing Politics

          You guys need to break out of your framing. No one is defending illegal immigration. If you think I am, please cite the text where I show support for illegal immigration. Knock yourselves out.

          It may be that you misconstrued my meaning when I said that all in all, illegal immigration provides a positive on the economy. Several of you scoffed but none have offered anything other than an opinion based on who-knows-what.

          So I'm doing the lifting for you here. And I even found an article right out of the Gospel of Murdoch.

          Here are some selected quotes from the article. If you care to read it, here is the link.

          “The additional economic activity and tax revenue that undocumented workers provide to state and local governments simply overwhelms the fiscal cost to provide services,” said Dan Griswald, an immigration policy expert with the libertarian think tank CATO Institute.
          Fiscally, illegal immigrants contribute mostly to state and local coffers primarily through sales and property taxes, which are mostly unavoidable. A majority of illegal immigrants pay federal, state and local income tax as well - 50% to 75%, according the Congressional Budget office.
          The most thorough study on the fiscal and impact of immigration was done by the non-partisan Texas Comptrollers’ Office in 2006, which showed Texas earned more in taxes and economic output from illegal immigrants than governments spent to provide services.
          Again, to be perfectly clear, I am not condoning illegal immigration. My point is that it does not have a negative impact on the economy. There is no argument in my book about the illegality of the aliens and we should be working on what to do with them.

          The argument that they are costing the state money is bogus and not a matter that need be included in future discussions.

          Now why didn't Arizona make it a felony to hire an illegal or undocumented worker? Seems to me that would be disincentiving the illegals from going to Arizona at all and the current population would have to move to another state. Hhmm?

          I'll answer that question. Because they don't want to put business owners in jail. That goes against the framing. It is easier to demonize a group of people and point out that the guy in the white house personally brought them over the border in the trunk of the limo.

          Why not do like Reagan did and grant them amnesty? Hhmm?
          Last edited by SpiffPeters; 07-09-2010, 09:51 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Playing Politics

            What makes you think they want amnesty? Amnesty would mean that they would have to pay income taxes and take responsibility for their health care insurance. Amnesty would make that 7 dollars an hour they get actually be worth 4, like the rest of us. I would venture to say that if amnesty were offered the number of illegals signing up would be very low.
            sigpic

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            • #21
              Re: Playing Politics

              Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
              You guys need to break out of your framing. No one is defending illegal immigration. If you think I am, please cite the text where I show support for illegal immigration. Knock yourselves out.

              It may be that you misconstrued my meaning when I said that all in all, illegal immigration provides a positive on the economy. Several of you scoffed but none have offered anything other than an opinion based on who-knows-what.

              So I'm doing the lifting for you here. And I even found an article right out of the Gospel of Murdoch.

              Here are some selected quotes from the article. If you care to read it, here is the link.

              Again, to be perfectly clear, I am not condoning illegal immigration. My point is that it does not have a negative impact on the economy. There is no argument in my book about the illegality of the aliens and we should be working on what to do with them.

              The argument that they are costing the state money is bogus and not a matter that need be included in future discussions.

              Now why didn't Arizona make it a felony to hire an illegal or undocumented worker? Seems to me that would be disincentiving the illegals from going to Arizona at all and the current population would have to move to another state. Hhmm?

              I'll answer that question. Because they don't want to put business owners in jail. That goes against the framing. It is easier to demonize a group of people and point out that the guy in the white house personally brought them over the border in the trunk of the limo.

              Why not do like Reagan did and grant them amnesty? Hhmm?
              Again since there is no way to track the numbers it would be a guesstimate at best. I just looked and Texas spends just over $11,000 per student. A family of 4-kids would be $44,000. Just how much money do illegals make?

              We already know amnesty does not work. Reagan made a deal with Congress to seal the Border after amnesty and the back stabbed him in the back. In addition, don't forget the cost of adding another 12,000,000,000 to the Heath Care plan which will already bankrupt us.

              Mark
              "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

              I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Playing Politics

                Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
                What makes you think they want amnesty? Amnesty would mean that they would have to pay income taxes and take responsibility for their health care insurance. Amnesty would make that 7 dollars an hour they get actually be worth 4, like the rest of us. I would venture to say that if amnesty were offered the number of illegals signing up would be very low.
                As the article I both quoted and linked to, the majority already pay income tax. As for your other comments, it is nothing more than conjecture.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Playing Politics

                  Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                  Again since there is no way to track the numbers it would be a guesstimate at best. I just looked and Texas spends just over $11,000 per student. A family of 4-kids would be $44,000. Just how much money do illegals make?

                  We already know amnesty does not work. Reagan made a deal with Congress to seal the Border after amnesty and the back stabbed him in the back. In addition, don't forget the cost of adding another 12,000,000,000 to the Heath Care plan which will already bankrupt us.

                  Mark
                  Yeah, I guess the Texas Comptroller, CATO AND the CBO forgot about that $11,000/per kid figure. This single argument invalidates every conclusion these professional bean counters provide.

                  Oh wait, here's this little nugget from the article. You must have overlooked it.

                  According to the Comptrollers’ office, state and local governments spent $1.16 billion to provide services like education, health care and safety, but raised an estimated $1.58 billion in tax revenues. Based on the data, the Texas taxpayer made a $424.7 million profit on its illegal immigrant population in 2006.
                  And next I suppose you'll say the climate scientists failed to take the sun into account in their global warming models.
                  Last edited by SpiffPeters; 07-10-2010, 12:42 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Playing Politics

                    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                    Yeah, I guess the Texas Comptroller, CATO AND the CBO forgot about that $11,000/per kid figure. This single argument invalidates every conclusion these professional bean counters provide.

                    Oh wait, here's this little nugget from the article. You must have overlooked it.



                    And next I suppose you'll say the climate scientists failed to take the sun into account in their global warming models.
                    I didn't forget anything. Garbage in garbage out.

                    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...althcare_N.htm

                    •In Texas, where the state comptroller estimates illegal immigrants cost hospitals $1.3 billion in 2006, the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston is considering denying cancer care to such immigrants.

                    Just how does that math work?

                    Mark
                    Last edited by ToUtahNow; 07-10-2010, 01:10 AM.
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Playing Politics

                      Not doubting your numbers, but I wonder how an illegal immigrant can get a Social Security number in order to pay taxes? If it is withheld by his employer there should be a record of the payment assigned to a SS number so it can be on a W2 form.
                      When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Playing Politics

                        KEY FINDINGS
                        
                        Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and
                        local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84.2 billion — are absorbed by state and local
                        governments.

                        
                        The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per nativeheaded
                        household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because
                        the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on
                        the size of the illegal alien population in that locality

                        
                        Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at
                        an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and
                        local governments.

                        
                        At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal
                        aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs
                        associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.

                        
                        Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. Among those who do, much of the revenues
                        collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns. Many are also claiming

                        tax credits resulting in payments from the U.S. Treasury.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Playing Politics

                          Amazing how America is no different to anywhere else in the world. Down here we have boats coming left right and centre. We have people smugglers etc. And of course we have do-gooders who actually profiteer not from teh illegals but through clogging up our legal system with BS. Who makes money, the legals of course. But then again we also have people who employ illegals and profit too. So what is teh answer, well I dont know. I do know that the pillars of society and the politicians have to stop and listen to the majority and not the minority. Stop thinking of re-election and think about education of true citizens, upholding the level of health care and providing for us first. I understand the christian beliefs but wake up and get some balls. Some of us are responsible for putting these pollies there, make them follow through with their election promises. Dovern for the people, not your own job security

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                          • #28
                            Re: Playing Politics

                            "People cannot find decent paying jobs because business owners can pay cash under minimum wage to illegal immigrants who can't complain because they are afraid of deportation."

                            Isn't that the major problem? How many would come if there was no job?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Playing Politics

                              Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                              As the article I both quoted and linked to, the majority already pay income tax. As for your other comments, it is nothing more than conjecture.
                              How do illegal aliens pay federal income tax? with the fake SS card? be real. whoever came up with those statistics if full of crap. If they actually did pay the full boat like the rest of us they would not be doing all those menial low paying jobs because they would not be able to afford to live on the income ( like the rest of us) You really need to hang around a Home Depot in Phoenix sometime. The contractors hire them by the day and pay them cash. They will not take a payroll check. Do you really think Pedro fills out a 1040 and claims all that at the end of the year?
                              Quit reading the leftist lies and crap and do a little thinking for yourself. All of their statistics don't add up. It ain't rocket science. Ask any small town or city school board how illegal aliens impact their budgets. Are they all making that up? Ask any hospital in the Arizona, New Mexico, California area how much impact servicing non paying illegal aliens has on health care costs. The idiots in congress ( both parties thank you ) have a vested interested in doing nothing. Here is the real financial impact. If we throw every single illegal alien out, the cost of consumer goods and raw produce will go through the roof. The cost of services will quickly follow. These two things alone will cause an almost immediate plunge in the commodities market followed by the stock market. The real truth that none of the sycophants want you to know is that long ago someone ran the numbers and figured out that it would take longer for the system to collapse if left alone. So they make the occasional foray into enforcing the laws to keep the citizens happy when in truth they have no intention of addressing the problem because the can't without destabilizing our entire economy. So what we are doing is circling the drain. Arizona's law, though it seems like a good thing, will in truth, do very little. It will in fact appease a few folks for a short time but it will in no way solve their immigration problems. Obama and his band of idiots along with anyone else that wants to jump on the band wagon are only doing so for political expediency. A chance to make hay so to speak. We could have addressed and probably solved the problem decades ago but there was corruption and apathy and now the entire camel is not only in the tent, he is crapping on the carpet as well.

                              And for all of you that want to arm the border and shoot them all. Ask yourself just how many billions of dollars it would really take to run them all out and keep them out? Are you willing to pony up the taxes for that? Are you willing to let the stock market crash? Can our already shaky economy take that hit? Are you willing to pay 8 bucks for a cucumber or a hundred fifty to have your lawn mowed. Feel like doubling your nanny's paycheck? Think about the real impact and then you will understand why nothing is being done.

                              It's not about human rights. It's about the MONEY
                              Last edited by NHMaster3015; 07-10-2010, 09:33 AM.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Re: Playing Politics

                                I doubt any of us will change Spiff's mind and that's okay. Most of us can see that if illegal immigration was a good idea americans would not be up in arms.

                                We deserve no less than any other country in terms of border security, and the burden and threat to our economy and personal safety taht comes with illegals. When our President is finished playing politics, I hope our borders are secured, citizens safer and illegals either sent back to their home country or allowed to stay here and meet all the requirements of an American citizen like the rest of us.

                                Stop the human trafficking and abuse, stop the violent illegals, level the playing field for employment and pay everyone a living wage from which they can pay taxes. Until a law is changed, it's insulting to think you can pick and choose which to obey.

                                I am very disappointed with my President so far, and I'm very disappointed with legislators and elected officials from other states for not siding with az in it's attempt to get control over this serious problem. We are either a nation of laws, or a lawless nation. Mexico is a lawless nation and right now we are headed down the same path. Time to turn it around, and if the democrats won't rise to the ocassion, hopefully the republicans will when given another chance!

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