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  • #31
    Re: Playing Politics

    don't hold your breath waiting
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    • #32
      Re: Playing Politics

      Originally posted by Pipestone Kid View Post

      Isn't that the major problem? How many would come if there was no job?
      This is what I have been saying. Why didn't Arizona pass a law that made it a felony to hire an illegal? Seems to me that cuts out the middle man and goes straight to the root of the problem.

      Good luck getting a job in Canada or Mexico. Sneaking over the border is one thing, getting a job and staying is another.

      You take away the jobs, the illegals disappear. It really is that simple.

      Unfortunately, the chamber of commerce is against such a measure. And how many would howl when the local farmer ends up in jail for a year and $250k fine?

      People the hire illegals for any type of work are contributors. All those landscapers, house cleaners, day laborers and so on that granny hires? Yeah, she's just as guilty as the meat packers or farmers that hire illegals.

      You don't want stray animals hanging out in your backyard, stop feeding them.

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      • #33
        Re: Playing Politics

        Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
        Most of us can see that if illegal immigration was a good idea americans would not be up in arms.
        Franki - please produce any evidence where I have said or otherwise suggested illegal immigration is a good idea. Please. I can't wait.

        NHMaster - How are your Beck U classes coming along?

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        • #34
          Re: Playing Politics

          You disagree with my assessment?
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          • #35
            Re: Playing Politics

            Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
            This is what I have been saying. Why didn't Arizona pass a law that made it a felony to hire an illegal? Seems to me that cuts out the middle man and goes straight to the root of the problem.

            Good luck getting a job in Canada or Mexico. Sneaking over the border is one thing, getting a job and staying is another.

            You take away the jobs, the illegals disappear. It really is that simple.

            Unfortunately, the chamber of commerce is against such a measure. And how many would howl when the local farmer ends up in jail for a year and $250k fine?

            People the hire illegals for any type of work are contributors. All those landscapers, house cleaners, day laborers and so on that granny hires? Yeah, she's just as guilty as the meat packers or farmers that hire illegals.

            You don't want stray animals hanging out in your backyard, stop feeding them.
            Actually Arizona goes a long way to punish employers who hire illegals. If found guilty the could lose their licensing for doing business.

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Playing Politics

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              You disagree with my assessment?
              Indeed.

              Originally posted by NHMaster3015 View Post
              The real truth that none of the sycophants want you to know is that long ago someone ran the numbers and figured out that it would take longer for the system to collapse if left alone. So they make the occasional foray into enforcing the laws to keep the citizens happy when in truth they have no intention of addressing the problem because the can't without destabilizing our entire economy.
              So are you advocating that the feds get draconian and bring the collapse upon us now rather than the next generation or two?

              A fundamental curiosity I have about this illegal issue is where was this vitriolic rhetoric when the illegal population was at it height back in 2008? Now the the numbers are in decline, the border has more resources than ever before, the numbers leaving exceed the numbers coming in, and the numbers coming in are a trickle compared to what they have been people are only now showing outrage.

              Listening to the repub machine lecture the nation on immigration or the economy is like listening to a drunken sailor lecture someone on sobriety.
              Last edited by SpiffPeters; 07-10-2010, 12:33 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: Playing Politics

                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                Actually Arizona goes a long way to punish employers who hire illegals. If found guilty the could lose their licensing for doing business.

                Mark
                Apparently the law isn't enforced very well. Where are all these illegals earning their money?

                Anyone I hire has to produce a combination of ID's that proves they are legal residence. Do the people that hire landscapers verify the service has a proper business license? I can't imagine Arizona would issue a business license to an illegal or that an illegal could set up a LLC or S corp.

                Agriculture seems to be a magnet for illegals. When was the last time Sheriff Joe raided a farmer and threw him in jail for hiring illegals?

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                • #38
                  Re: Playing Politics

                  Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                  Apparently the law isn't enforced very well. Where are all these illegals earning their money?

                  Anyone I hire has to produce a combination of ID's that proves they are legal residence. Do the people that hire landscapers verify the service has a proper business license? I can't imagine Arizona would issue a business license to an illegal or that an illegal could set up a LLC or S corp.

                  Agriculture seems to be a magnet for illegals. When was the last time Sheriff Joe raided a farmer and threw him in jail for hiring illegals?
                  You may have missed it but the Law has not gone into effect yet.

                  Mark
                  "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                  I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Playing Politics

                    Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                    Indeed.



                    So are you advocating that the feds get draconian and bring the collapse upon us now rather than the next generation or two?

                    A fundamental curiosity I have about this illegal issue is where was this vitriolic rhetoric when the illegal population was at it height back in 2008? Now the the numbers are in decline, the border has more resources than ever before, the numbers leaving exceed the numbers coming in, and the numbers coming in are a trickle compared to what they have been people are only now showing outrage.

                    Listening to the repub machine lecture the nation on immigration or the economy is like listening to a drunken sailor lecture someone on sobriety.

                    Spiff, I am not advocating anything. What I am trying to point out is that the problem has reached such epic proportions that even if someone wanted to do something about it the time has long since past. Don't you think that if either party could have reigned the situation in without causing financial collapse they would have done so by now? And, the numbers are only in decline because the economy is in decline. If things perk up so will illegal immigration.
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                    • #40
                      Re: Playing Politics

                      Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                      Do the people that hire landscapers verify the service has a proper business license?
                      Every landscaper around here has the county licensed HI contractor bumper sticker, without it the county can seize their vehicle and tools.

                      I'm not sure if they really check anything aside from a $300 bi-annual fee, but supposedly they check insurance, workmans comp, child support, and pass a basic business law exam.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Playing Politics

                        Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                        You may have missed it but the Law has not gone into effect yet.

                        Mark
                        I was commenting on your remark about Arizona's aggressive stance on employers hiring illegal workers. I see little evidence that it is effective.

                        And, yes I realize the law has not gone into effect. July 29th depending on what the judge decides to do with the fed filing.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Playing Politics

                          Originally posted by SpiffPeters View Post
                          I was commenting on your remark about Arizona's aggressive stance on employers hiring illegal workers. I see little evidence that it is effective.

                          And, yes I realize the law has not gone into effect. July 29th depending on what the judge decides to do with the fed filing.
                          Are you really asking why Arizona isn't enforcing the Federal Laws the Feds refuse to enforce? Isn't that the point of the new Law so they can go after both illegals and those who employee them?

                          Mark
                          "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                          I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Playing Politics

                            What we have here is a failure to communicate! Spiff, since you are not advocating or endorsing illegal immigration, do you consider those here illegally as breaking our laws? Do you consider those illegals involved in violence and drug trade as criminals who should be imprisoned, prosecuted and either deported or dealt with in our justice system?

                            I know you want those Americans who are hiring illegals and using drugs held accountable, but do you first and foremost hold the illegal crossing our borders responsible for his actions?

                            I expect you will agree that we are responsible for our actions, and so are the illegals breaking our laws. Would you free the criminal who robs a jewelry store because the shiny objects are in plain sight, just teasing him for the taking? How about the man who rapes because the woman was just too attractive to resist, even though she said "No"? We don't have to remove the motivation for a crime to expect people to obey our laws. Same holds true for immigration.

                            Spiff, those who emply illegals and use drugs should face the law, but that does not excuse the illegal who is here to work or commit a crime.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Playing Politics

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              ... do you consider those here illegally as breaking our laws? Do you consider those illegals involved in violence and drug trade as criminals who should be imprisoned, prosecuted and either deported or dealt with in our justice system?
                              Of course I do. I have said nothing that one could draw any other conclusion from.

                              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                              ... but do you first and foremost hold the illegal crossing our borders responsible for his actions?
                              Again, of course I do. But this is where it gets sticky. There are a two camps most people fall into.

                              1. Deport all of them
                              2. Give them a path to legal status and back pay income taxes (for those that can not prove they paid income taxes)

                              For the record, I'm on board with option two. It is the least disruptive option and frankly the most pragmatic. Others have expressed what I construe as a vindictive stance by advocating they all be deported. But that is just my read on it. Hopefully American's will never need to sneak into Canada or Mexico and gain employment illegally just so they can send money back to America.


                              Again, as for the violent criminal, they are the stock and trade of the drug cartel business. Close down the drug business, you remove the bad guys and their gangs (many of whom are likely illegals too). But without the drugs and gangs, there is little to no violence.

                              But if you catch an illegal, whose justice system will you try them under?

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                              • #45
                                Re: Playing Politics

                                Two camps or not I guarantee you that if amnesty is offered less than 1/4 of them would take it. Why would they? Put yourself in Pedro's shoes. Since at the current time nobody is harassing him or threatening deportation why would he want amnesty and the chance to get on the tax wagon? Why would he want to have to pay for his health insurance instead of rolling into the ER and getting treated for free. Why would he want auto insurance or any of the other amenities that all take a chunk out of his 7 dollar an hour paycheck. Everyone needs to stop hashing this issue out with their emotions and start looking at it from a pragmatic point of vies. Put yourself in Pedro's shoes and do the math.
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