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  • #16
    Re: Gay Marriage

    Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
    I will be married 40-years in January and all I can tell you is if what you've seen of most straight marriages is disgraceful you need to start hanging out with a better crowd. I am not threatened by what they call gay marriage but I don't call my toaster a sub-machine gun either.

    Mark
    Mark, what you have and experience with marriage is unfortunately for the rest of those married, the exception. I worked with blue collar guys and many of them had failed marriages,they worked long hours and the relationships sufferred. Closer to home the only couples I knew of were the parents of the children my daughters were friendly with at school. Most of those folks were white collar workers and they cheated with their co-workers. My wife would comment about the happy, seemingly perfect couples and great husbands only to see them fall from grace. Trust me Mark, you are very lucky to have found your crowd. Most married crowds are as I described, that's why divorce rates are so high. You can keep calling your toaster a toaster and I'll keep refusing to call these folks who ignore their vows married. Just as it takes more to be a Father than to make a child, in my opinion it takes more than a ceremony to make a married person. When something fails more than it succeeds it is a failure and that is what we as a society have with the institution of marriage. I really don't know what it would take to turn that around? How do we get folks to honor their vows and spouse when they don't even respect themselves? My upset is not with gays, I place blame for the problem of marriage as we know it with those involved.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Gay Marriage

      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
      Mark, what you have and experience with marriage is unfortunately for the rest of those married, the exception. I worked with blue collar guys and many of them had failed marriages,they worked long hours and the relationships sufferred. Closer to home the only couples I knew of were the parents of the children my daughters were friendly with at school. Most of those folks were white collar workers and they cheated with their co-workers. My wife would comment about the happy, seemingly perfect couples and great husbands only to see them fall from grace. Trust me Mark, you are very lucky to have found your crowd. Most married crowds are as I described, that's why divorce rates are so high. You can keep calling your toaster a toaster and I'll keep refusing to call these folks who ignore their vows married. Just as it takes more to be a Father than to make a child, in my opinion it takes more than a ceremony to make a married person. When something fails more than it succeeds it is a failure and that is what we as a society have with the institution of marriage. I really don't know what it would take to turn that around? How do we get folks to honor their vows and spouse when they don't even respect themselves? My upset is not with gays, I place blame for the problem of marriage as we know it with those involved.
      Perhaps it may help for you to look at the Scandinavian Countries where same-sex marriages have been around for more than a decade. The divorce rate is higher than those among traditional marriages and regular marriages are almost dieing out. I read where 60% of new births in Denmark are now to a single mom.

      Mark
      "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

      I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Gay Marriage

        Personally, I do not condone or even understand homosexuality.

        But I also know that it is not my place to judge. I have my job... God has his.

        What I do know is that in the big picture, we as Americans spend far too much time on issues like gay marriage, gays in the military, steroids in baseball, Lindsay Lohan, and such.

        Meanwhile, the government is controlled by well-funded lobbyists that are wooing our political "leaders" into allowing and even supporting selling our industry and therefore our future off for pennies on the dollar. The special interests that fund the lobbyists are collecting the pennies. And a scary number of citizens think it's perfectly okay that virtually everything we have in our homes is manufactured in China or some other country... anywhere except the United States. We happily ship our consumer dollars to the far east to fund the meteoric growth of the Chinese economy. And if that isn't bad enough (it is), we become dependant on them buying our government debt instruments! The Federal Reserve promotes monetary policies that serve only the banking industry, and every time we fuel or cars and trucks we are funding religious lunatics that want to kill us.

        The United States is losing its technological edge. "Johnny (still) can't read". Corruption and dysfunction in government is worse today than I ever remember, and we have severe fiscal problems with social security and medicare that our "leaders" seem intent on making worse. With an aging population, we're racing into a fiasco. Many Americans will be living in cardboard boxes under the freeway. Precious few have the $3M needed to have a decent retirement. And with the looming spectre of a weakening dollar and the inevitable and certain spectre of significant inflation looming, things are likely to get worse.

        If you want to talk about moral decay, I would forget about gays. If you're not gay, whatever they do is highly unlikely to make you renounce heterosexuality and become gay. It really doesn't matter. I would focus on TV and movies that have become ever more explicit in terms of displaying heterosexual sexuality in a casual and unhealthy way. With our kids seeing this on every TV station, is it really any surprise that sex is common in junior high school and even grade school? There's your moral decay, IMO.

        And then there's the push to legalize pot. The damn initiative looks like it might actually have a chance. Has the country gone berserk?

        Gay marriage? Who cares? Focus on your family, your loved ones, your children. Focus on what will give them a better future. Anything else is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
        Last edited by Andy_M; 08-12-2010, 01:56 AM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Gay Marriage

          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
          Perhaps it may help for you to look at the Scandinavian Countries where same-sex marriages have been around for more than a decade. The divorce rate is higher than those among traditional marriages and regular marriages are almost dieing out. I read where 60% of new births in Denmark are now to a single mom.

          Mark
          Mark, maybe they are just ahead of the times regarding divorce. I look to the moral compass and conviction of straight couples when placing blame for the failure of marriage, not gays. There are many issues facing married couples aside from the obvious abuse and infidelity, a failing economy is adding to money problems which can tear a marriage apart. Do you really think gay marriage will somehow damage traditional marriage beyond the things I mentioned? You can hope gays continue to be denied marriage, but in my opinion it will have no effect on the divorce rate among straight couples. We have to look at the real problems and admit what needs fixing. Many young folks men and women alike are refusing to get married because they are the product of divorce. They still make love and still have children, but do not want to follow in their parent's foot steps. Many things must change if marriage is to make a come back among straight couples.

          Right now there is probably a higher percentage of gay couples who want to get married, because gays have not experienced the high rate of divorce traditional couples have. Can they do a better job at marriage that us? I am no referring to you and I specifically but you know what I mean.

          I believe at some point maybe it was the late fifties or early sixties, folks gettting married did not have the same attitude, maturity, morals or whatever it took to make it last. There is too much attention surrounding the reception and the ceremony is more of an act than a sacred thing.

          I think blaming gays for our failure at marriage is like blaming teachers for our stupid kids. We need to blame the right people!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Gay Marriage

            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
            Personally, I do not condone or even understand homosexuality.

            But I also know that it is not my place to judge. I have my job... God has his.

            What I do know is that in the big picture, we as Americans spend far too much time on issues like gay marriage, gays in the military, steroids in baseball, Lindsay Lohan, and such.

            Meanwhile, the government is controlled by well-funded lobbyists that are wooing our political "leaders" into allowing and even supporting selling our industry and therefore our future off for pennies on the dollar. The special interests that fund the lobbyists are collecting the pennies. And a scary number of citizens think it's perfectly okay that virtually everything we have in our homes is manufactured in China or some other country... anywhere except the United States. We happily ship our consumer dollars to the far east to fund the meteoric growth of the Chinese economy. And if that isn't bad enough (it is), we become dependant on them buying our government debt instruments! The Federal Reserve promotes monetary policies that serve only the banking industry, and every time we fuel or cars and trucks we are funding religious lunatics that want to kill us.

            The United States is losing its technological edge. "Johnny (still) can't read". Corruption and dysfunction in government is worse today than I ever remember, and we have severe fiscal problems with social security and medicare that our "leaders" seem intent on making worse. With an aging population, we're racing into a fiasco. Many Americans will be living in cardboard boxes under the freeway. Precious few have the $3M needed to have a decent retirement. And with the looming spectre of a weakening dollar and the inevitable and certain spectre of significant inflation looming, things are likely to get worse.

            If you want to talk about moral decay, I would forget about gays. If you're not gay, whatever they do is highly unlikely to make you renounce heterosexuality and become gay. It really doesn't matter. I would focus on TV and movies that have become ever more explicit in terms of displaying heterosexual sexuality in a casual and unhealthy way. With our kids seeing this on every TV station, is it really any surprise that sex is common in junior high school and even grade school? There's your moral decay, IMO.

            And then there's the push to legalize pot. The damn initiative looks like it might actually have a chance. Has the country gone berserk?

            Gay marriage? Who cares? Focus on your family, your loved ones, your children. Focus on what will give them a better future. Anything else is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
            Yep, it's like the entire nation has ADHD. It's all about percentages. What do you suppose the percentage of gays that want to get married is as compared to the gay population or the population as a whole? The actual number is so small that it has no factor at all in anything. Yet, it's a better topic of conversation and a whole lot less complicated than say the trillions of dollars the government has driven our economy into debt.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Gay Marriage

              What will be the next great distraction for the American public? O.J. was good for months, I think it has to something really meaningless. All the News stations will cover it 24/7, while the wars, economy and everything else of importance take a back seat.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Gay Marriage

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Mark, maybe they are just ahead of the times regarding divorce. I look to the moral compass and conviction of straight couples when placing blame for the failure of marriage, not gays. There are many issues facing married couples aside from the obvious abuse and infidelity, a failing economy is adding to money problems which can tear a marriage apart. Do you really think gay marriage will somehow damage traditional marriage beyond the things I mentioned? You can hope gays continue to be denied marriage, but in my opinion it will have no effect on the divorce rate among straight couples. We have to look at the real problems and admit what needs fixing. Many young folks men and women alike are refusing to get married because they are the product of divorce. They still make love and still have children, but do not want to follow in their parent's foot steps. Many things must change if marriage is to make a come back among straight couples.

                Right now there is probably a higher percentage of gay couples who want to get married, because gays have not experienced the high rate of divorce traditional couples have. Can they do a better job at marriage that us? I am no referring to you and I specifically but you know what I mean.

                I believe at some point maybe it was the late fifties or early sixties, folks gettting married did not have the same attitude, maturity, morals or whatever it took to make it last. There is too much attention surrounding the reception and the ceremony is more of an act than a sacred thing.

                I think blaming gays for our failure at marriage is like blaming teachers for our stupid kids. We need to blame the right people!
                I'm not blaming gays for anything but I am not naive enough to hold them out as something they are not. Gays are nothing new in California as they are all over the place out here. Some of the worst domestic violence I have ever had to deal with were with my gay employees. Regardless of the reasons for this it still does not make a toaster a sub-machine gun.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Gay Marriage

                  Mark, statistically we are at a disadvantage regarding domestic violence and marriage. I don't know how many gay men murder their partners, but it is a too common thing among traditional couples as is physical abuse. My focus in not on gays because I see so much wrong doing within regular marriage. Here in CT we don't have nearly the same percentage or visablity of gay couples as you do in California. I see the many problems and high divorce with straight couples and it bothers me. I examine my own behavior and desires and thoughts, and it takes effort to stay married even if you love eachother. There are too many men and women who do not self examine, do not take stock of themselves, do not act married! They don't care about eachother, or their children, they are all for themselves.

                  I think it is understandable to be turned off by the thought of a gay lifestyle if you are not gay. I don't think about their sexual behavior, I think about their social behavior. Here, they don't bother me, I am more bothered by all the lousy married folks!

                  We do have bigger fish to fry, but if we really care about traditional marriage I think we must be open to self examine. Right now which is the greater social and financial burden to your state, gays and gay marriage or the millions of failing and failed marriages, tying up the courts and hurting children? What will it take to save marriage? Have you watched any of the Dr. Phil shows, divorce court, Kate plus eight? Our society has gone insane!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Gay Marriage

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Mark, statistically we are at a disadvantage regarding domestic violence and marriage. I don't know how many gay men murder their partners, but it is a too common thing among traditional couples as is physical abuse. My focus in not on gays because I see so much wrong doing within regular marriage. Here in CT we don't have nearly the same percentage or visablity of gay couples as you do in California. I see the many problems and high divorce with straight couples and it bothers me. I examine my own behavior and desires and thoughts, and it takes effort to stay married even if you love eachother. There are too many men and women who do not self examine, do not take stock of themselves, do not act married! They don't care about eachother, or their children, they are all for themselves.

                    I think it is understandable to be turned off by the thought of a gay lifestyle if you are not gay. I don't think about their sexual behavior, I think about their social behavior. Here, they don't bother me, I am more bothered by all the lousy married folks!

                    We do have bigger fish to fry, but if we really care about traditional marriage I think we must be open to self examine. Right now which is the greater social and financial burden to your state, gays and gay marriage or the millions of failing and failed marriages, tying up the courts and hurting children? What will it take to save marriage? Have you watched any of the Dr. Phil shows, divorce court, Kate plus eight? Our society has gone insane!
                    You seem really sour regarding marriage and I wanted to assure you there are many successful marriages. Those who are down on marriages often only look at divorce rates and not success rates of multi-year marriages. With the US leading in divorces it is still only 3.5 in 1,000 population. Part of the reason the numbers are so skewed is they are looking at a single annual event and not a lifetime event. How many of the 50% annual divorce rate are from a drunken weekend in Las Vegas or are people who get married on a regular basis? Why don't we spend more time looking at the marriages that last a lifetime?

                    Mark
                    Last edited by ToUtahNow; 08-12-2010, 11:50 AM.
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Gay Marriage

                      Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                      You seem really sour regarding marriage and I wanted to assure you there are many successful marriages. Those who are down on marriages often only look at divorce rates and not success rates of multi-year marriages. With the US leading in divorces it is still only 4.5 in 1,000. Part of the reason the numbers are so skewed is they are looking at a single annual event and not a lifetime event. How many of the 50% annual divorce rate are from a drunken weekend in Las Vegas or are people who get married on a regular basis? Why don't we spend more time looking at the marriages that last a lifetime?

                      Mark
                      Mark, I won't argue numbers with you. I was under the assumption that more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, but if you have a different statistic you may be right. I am sour on marriage because of the many I have seen fail and all the sorrow and dysfunction it causes. We can acknowledge successful marriages such as yours, but we must look to the failures that are more common place if we are to change gain a handle on this problem. Maybe you don't see a problem? I do. My own marriage has been a constant learning experience of how different home life and culture along with financial, health and other things can complicate a loving relationship.
                      The many marriages I have seen fail had nothing to do with a one time lapse in judgement, these folks behaved badly often. Mark, am I wrong that the courts are filled with cases arising from failed marriages including, domestic violence, child endangerment, and divorce?

                      Looking at the many successes in medicine for instance does not bring us closer to a cure for Cancer. I believe marriage as a viable institution is in crisis, and from your posts you do not. I think we must agree to disagree.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Gay Marriage

                        The courts are also full of civil and criminal litigants but it still is only a miniscule part of our populations.

                        Mark
                        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Gay Marriage

                          I've never known anyone that had their (heterosexual) marriage or divorce plans or decisions influenced in any way whatsoever by the issue of gay marriage. IMO, whether heterosexual marriage is in crisis or not doesn't seem terribly relevant. The fact is, the family as institution is under tremendous pressure, due to increasing levels of stress in society, both parents working outside the home, etc. It has about as much to do with gay marriage as the phases of the moon.

                          With due respect, what exactly IS the threat posed by gay marriage? Or, really, is all the hubub just trumped up because the notion of it somehow offends some of us? If so, I see it all as the same thing as religious intolerance or racial intolerance. With so much essentially criminal activity going on that directly influences all of us, I find it incomprehensible this issue merits any attention at all.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Gay Marriage

                            While Rome Burned.
                            Attached Files
                            sigpic

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                            • #29
                              Re: Gay Marriage

                              Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                              I've never known anyone that had their (heterosexual) marriage or divorce plans or decisions influenced in any way whatsoever by the issue of gay marriage. IMO, whether heterosexual marriage is in crisis or not doesn't seem terribly relevant. The fact is, the family as institution is under tremendous pressure, due to increasing levels of stress in society, both parents working outside the home, etc. It has about as much to do with gay marriage as the phases of the moon.

                              With due respect, what exactly IS the threat posed by gay marriage? Or, really, is all the hubub just trumped up because the notion of it somehow offends some of us? If so, I see it all as the same thing as religious intolerance or racial intolerance. With so much essentially criminal activity going on that directly influences all of us, I find it incomprehensible this issue merits any attention at all.
                              Andy, I agree with most of your post. I think if I was a regular church goer and deeply religious I would be less tolerant of alternative lifestyles. You can't follow the Bible and be a free thinker because there is direct conflict between the written word or teachings and in this case the gay lifestyle.

                              I personally respect religious folks but at the same time cannot live with the contradictions I experienced at church. I had to stop going to services years ago. Sermons about divorce being evil and so are those who divorce, I found very disrespectful. Should folks in abusinve or unloving marriages be forced to remain or face insults and damnation? I need to decide things for myself and if when I die I must face judgement from God, so be it. I still think gays are not a problem with traditional marriage or the family unit. This is seen as a threat to our very core, but in my opinion there is plenty of blame to be placed outside of this discussion. I think our way of life and very freedom is in jeopardy with the economy, bad government, crime and other factors, gay marriage is a nonissue. Perhaps if in the distant future, straight folks no longer procreate and mankind is facing extinction, free thinkers such as myself will be proven wrong? Right now we have serious issues to resolve and a growing muslim population to consider. Gay may be forced back into the closet and christians will not be far behind!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Gay Marriage

                                Frank, I'm with you on this issue. But I want to point out that it's important to draw the distinction between a person's religious beliefs and the laws of the land. In America we have the RIGHT to hold any personal beliefs we want. You or I are free to like or dislike blacks or Lutherans or lawyers or whatever. We may believe that all women are incompetent gold diggers or that all men are arrogant chauvinists. Such values may make us pathetic examples of human beings, but it is our protected right to hold those beliefs nevertheless.

                                However, expecting Government to take sides in our prejuduce is entirely a different matter. It's not the Government's business to decide what type of sexual behavior is appropriate any more than it is to decide that Baptists are good and Lutherans are bad.

                                As an example, the civil rights movement and racial equality laws have NOTHING to do with a person's individual choice to like or dislike those of a different color. In the United States, anytone is totally free to hold any personal beliefs they choose. The law, however, says that irrespective of your beliefs, you cannot ACT in any way that infringes on the rights of a fellow citizen, because the United States, as a body of law, is (or strives to be) color blind.

                                My point is that no matter how devout a believer an individual is in religion or the Bible, and irrespective of whether that individual interprets it literally or liberally, that is all entirely a personal choice. The contents of the Bible do not constitute law in the United States, nor does my, your or anyone's beliefs and values constitute law.

                                The above might seem obvious, but is it? My personal politics are conservative by nature, but the "religious right", which is closely associated with the Republican party, scares the bejeezus out of me because they wish to steer the law of the land to be in line with their personal religious-based beliefs. That is really dangerous, IMO. They are staunchly against gay marriage. I find the notion of homosexuality (no offense intended to gays) to be deviant (polite way to say perverted), as it seems unnatural... but I am totally unwilling, AS A STAUNCH AND TRUE CONSERVATIVE, to support any government intrusion into the private lives of citizens that serves only to reduce personal freedom. No no no.. tha's not what the United States is about. I voted to allow gay marriage and would do so again. No matter how much it creeps me out or whatever.

                                And of course as you and others have said all through this thread, it doesn't really rise to the level of a problem deserving any attention, anyway.

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