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  • #46
    Re: Gay Marriage

    Originally posted by AFM View Post
    No matter which way you put it Gays and Gay marriages are an abomination and the first signs of a civalization in termoil and without the moral courage to stand up and say so and not go along with the croud is no excuss I am a Cathalic and cannot and will never accept your arguments in favour of Gays or Lisbians marriages or whoever you just know what is right and what is wrong and I cannot change and if that makes a praia then so be it.

    Tony
    Tony, the abomination is not homosexual behavior. The overwhelming wrong in my opinion is the disregard of vows, abuse, neglect and violence in straight marriage that seems to be getting worse. I also believe we are all God's creation, Gays too! Those who hurt others are the spawn of the devil! I think your religious argument demonstrates exactly what reasonable folks need to fear when the religious majority influences society. When, not if muslims are in charge gays will hide in fear as you desire, but our heads and way of life will also be on the chopping block. Must be great to feel so righteous and so sure you cannot be wrong, but what if you are? What if God gets a hold of you and says "What were you thinking to treat my children who were different so poorly, who put you in charge of what is right and wrong?".

    I'll say it with my last breath, gays are the very least of the so called problems facing our way of life. It is apparent to me that those who break their vows, hurt children, steal, hurt, rape and murder their neighbors are an abomination. I will pray to God to forgive those who demonize gays while turning their backs on the real problems.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Gay Marriage

      I just can't think of a moral reason to deny them the right to marry that doesn't fall back on religion.

      I think that while religion brings out the best in some people, it brings out the worst in many others.

      If you don't agree with it, speak out, don't allow them into your church, but don't expect our government to hold the rest of the nation to your moral sensibilities. You are allowed your rights so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, disallowing a committed couple the right to make end of life care decisions because they can't be married is denying them a right that many of you do enjoy.
      No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Gay Marriage

        [QUOTE=boytyperanma;307053]



        "I can not wrap my head around this logic. How does gay marriage effect heterosexual marriage? Is gay sex somehow better then heterosexual sex? I mean why would allowing homosexuals stop getting married and having children? I think with or without gay marriage heterosexuals can go on producing children just fine. "


        Yes! Until Gay marriage crashes and burns just like traditional marriage it will be better and that scares some folks. Personally I think when gays have to live as a married couple and adhere to certain behaviors, they too will fall victims to very similar problems. Given time the failure rate of gay marriage may eclipse that of traditional.

        I find folks who use religion as a weapon to attack gays, as being guilty of not going far enough in their crusade to save society from destruction and damnation. Why start with or stop with gays? Why not start cleaning up the barn with all the abusive cheats who spit in the face of their sacred vows? How does the "problem" of gay marriage rise above that of battered and murdered wives and children? Our society, country and world needs a lot of fixing and gay marriage is so far down on the list of things to be considered I can't believe how intelligent and reasonable folks are wasting their time and ours!

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Gay Marriage

          Originally posted by AFM View Post
          No matter which way you put it Gays and Gay marriages are an abomination and the first signs of a civalization in termoil and without the moral courage to stand up and say so and not go along with the croud is no excuss I am a Cathalic and cannot and will never accept your arguments in favour of Gays or Lisbians marriages or whoever you just know what is right and what is wrong and I cannot change and if that makes a praia then so be it.

          Tony
          Abomination. Is that a legal term?

          I don't see ANYONE here arguing in favor of homosexuality. All I see are some folks arguing against discrimination against a group of citizens based solely on religious or personal morality viewpoints.

          Look, you are free to hold whatever beliefs you like. I may even agree with you. Religious, moral and ethical beliefs are the sacred purview of each individual. Here in the US, that is a right that people have died to preserve and guarantee. And you are absolutely free to teach your opinions and values to your children or to espouse them to anyone that will listen to you.

          However, an underlying principle of the Unites States is that the Government does not sponsor or subscribe to ANY religion or denomination. Makes no difference if it's Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, the Hari Krish"nuts" or any of them. All the same under the law.

          When a group - even a majority - starts pushing the Government to take sides and limit the personal freedom of ANY group based on religious grounds or the moral sensibilities of another group, it's a very slippery slope. IMO, there needs to be compelling evidence that a group poses a serious threat to society as a whole before Government has any business taking the very serious step of abridging personal freedoms of that group. Offending YOUR or MY religious or other sensibilities does not satisfy that criteria. If 2% of the voting public or 98% of the voting public agree, it makes no difference. Our Constitution is sacred and it GUARANTEES that certain rights are inalienable. Nowhere does it say "inalienable as long as the majority agrees today" nor does it say "inalienable as long as you aren't different than me".

          I think homosexuality is on odd duck in general but I also believe that homosexuals aren't homosexuals by choice (yikes, who would CHOOSE that??) anymore than I can "decide" to stop allowing women to raise my heart rate (and other things). It's not much different in that context than folks of other races... people don't get to select their race, and it doesn't make a bloody bit of difference what their characteristic features or skin color are. All that matters is who they are and that they follow the same rules (laws) as everyone else. So the Government of the United States has no business engaging in discrimination.

          The US is built on a set of principles. One of those principles is NOT, thankfully, "Oppression of others based on majority vote". We are all free to follow and indeed promote our own notions of religion, religious ethics, interpretation of scripture (any scripture, not necessarily the King James edition of the Bible). Sorry, but that is fundamental to our Country. If as a society we start promoting or even forcing our Government to oppress certain groups where no real threat exists, we are forsaking that principle and IMO that is a travesty. As I see it, those that are encouraging, lobbying and voting for Government sponsored discrimination are a threat to our society... not a few genetic odd-ducks that prefer playing with others of their own sex (yuck).

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Gay Marriage

            How is it discriminating to maintain the traditional definition of marriage? There is no reason this could not have all been avoided by allowing Civil Unions the same rights as married persons which has been done in many areas. If we go down this path how is it different from multi partner marriages, sibling marriages or multiple individual marriages?

            Mark
            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Gay Marriage

              Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
              How is it discriminating to maintain the traditional definition of marriage? There is no reason this could not have all been avoided by allowing Civil Unions the same rights as married persons which has been done in many areas. If we go down this path how is it different from multi partner marriages, sibling marriages or multiple individual marriages?

              Mark
              Mark, it is a changing world and changing America. Just as traditional marriage is under attack from within by couples cheating, abusing and trampling on once sacred vows, alterantive lifestyles are gaining populatity.
              Clearly sibling marriages run the risk a greater risk of birth defective children, not that traditional unions such as mine have escaped a similar fate.
              I happen to think it might make more sense to have more than one wife for several reasons. To begin with there are more single women looking for the love and security of a husband than there are men looking for the same with women, which leaves a lot of women single. I know from talking to a lot of other guys, that they have much stronger sex drives than their wives and for much longer into their marriage. I could easily be with a different woman everyday of the week and I'm almost sixty! Why not allow men to have several wives if that's what they all agree to? Just look at the online dating sites, there are thousands upon thousands of women who cannot find a man. There are so many sexually frustrated men and lonely women that it makes perfect sense to have multiple devoted partners. Maybe this is a better alternative than traditional marriage? Leave the gays alone and let's fix our failing institution.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Gay Marriage

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Mark, it is a changing world and changing America. Just as traditional marriage is under attack from within by couples cheating, abusing and trampling on once sacred vows, alterantive lifestyles are gaining populatity.
                Again you need to start hanging out with a better crowd. I know hundreds of married couples yet only a handful of those who have been divorced.


                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Clearly sibling marriages run the risk a greater risk of birth defective children, not that traditional unions such as mine have escaped a similar fate.
                Who said anything about procreating? Perhaps it's two brothers or two sisters who just want the same rights as married couples.


                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                I happen to think it might make more sense to have more than one wife for several reasons. To begin with there are more single women looking for the love and security of a husband than there are men looking for the same with women, which leaves a lot of women single. I know from talking to a lot of other guys, that they have much stronger sex drives than their wives and for much longer into their marriage. I could easily be with a different woman everyday of the week and I'm almost sixty! Why not allow men to have several wives if that's what they all agree to? Just look at the online dating sites, there are thousands upon thousands of women who cannot find a man. There are so many sexually frustrated men and lonely women that it makes perfect sense to have multiple devoted partners. Maybe this is a better alternative than traditional marriage? Leave the gays alone and let's fix our failing institution.
                .....and there in lies the problem, it is not about your needs it is about the needs of you as a couple.

                Mark
                "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Gay Marriage

                  Can't say I know hundreds of couples, but I know plenty of divorced folks and I believe their fate is more the norm.




                  If they are both adult, once again I fail to see how they are hurting you aside from your religous and moral ideals.



                  Mark, if the needs of either the individual or couple was being met divorce would not be such a problem. I believe marriage is unnatural because it forces to people with different hormone levels, sex drives, health and social issues to remain together often unhappily. Defending traditional marriage as something that works is not realistic in my opinion. I envy your relationship and social circle, but I am pretty sure they are unusual in America. I'm done have a great weekend.
                  Mark[/QUOTE]

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Gay Marriage

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Can't say I know hundreds of couples, but I know plenty of divorced folks and I believe their fate is more the norm.
                    Simple math will tell you it is not. Assume there is a 40% divorce rate and 100,000 people get married each year. After the first year there are 60,000 married couples. The second year there are 120,000, the third there are 180,000, the forth there are 240,000 and the fifth there are 300,000. Now extend that out to 30 or 40 years.


                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    If they are both adult, once again I fail to see how they are hurting you aside from your religous and moral ideals.
                    I never said they were but again it does not make my toaster a sub-machine gun. I have already posted I was not against Civil Unions.



                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Mark, if the needs of either the individual or couple was being met divorce would not be such a problem. I believe marriage is unnatural because it forces to people with different hormone levels, sex drives, health and social issues to remain together often unhappily. Defending traditional marriage as something that works is not realistic in my opinion. I envy your relationship and social circle, but I am pretty sure they are unusual in America. I'm done have a great weekend.
                    Based on your stated opinions and beliefs I would have to agree marriage is probably wrong for you. However, I married my wife for better or for worse and plan to honor that commitment. We share common goals and beliefs and I could not imagine life without her.

                    Mark
                    "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                    I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Gay Marriage

                      None of my close friends have divorced yet, but I'm also pretty young. An interesting statistic from divorcerate.org:


                      The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
                      The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
                      The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

                      I would also be interested to see the divorce rate based on longevity of a marriage.

                      This has an interesting figure, Figure 13 which shows the probability that a marriage will remain intact after 10, 15 and 20 years.
                      http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_028.pdf

                      In 1995 it was 67, 57, and 50%. In 2002 for 10 years it was only 64%.

                      It isn't surprising to me at least, that if you make it 10 years, you would have a 85% chance of making it 15 and a 74% chance of making it 20. Since this doesn't specify how a union is dissolved, I don't know if death would have any impact on these statistics.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Gay Marriage

                        Originally posted by cpw View Post
                        None of my close friends have divorced yet, but I'm also pretty young. An interesting statistic from divorcerate.org:


                        The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
                        The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
                        The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

                        I would also be interested to see the divorce rate based on longevity of a marriage.

                        This has an interesting figure, Figure 13 which shows the probability that a marriage will remain intact after 10, 15 and 20 years.
                        http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_028.pdf

                        In 1995 it was 67, 57, and 50%. In 2002 for 10 years it was only 64%.

                        It isn't surprising to me at least, that if you make it 10 years, you would have a 85% chance of making it 15 and a 74% chance of making it 20. Since this doesn't specify how a union is dissolved, I don't know if death would have any impact on these statistics.
                        Charles, I wish you and you wife the best in the coming years. I have seen divorce happen in young couples who were not ready for marriage and all the compromise necessary, then after a child or two the dynamics change and present new challenges to the marriage, finally if there is not infidelity some folks seem to divorce when the children are old enough to leave the home. Women and men who have been unhappy for years and stayed together for the kids, finally reach a point at which they decide to end the misery.


                        "Based on your stated opinions and beliefs I would have to agree marriage is probably wrong for you. However, I married my wife for better or for worse and plan to honor that commitment. We share common goals and beliefs and I could not imagine life without her."

                        Mark

                        Mark, to begin with I don't agree with your mathematics. I still believe more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, but that does not mean they will end in the first year or two. However you compile your statistics, they seem to go against every reported figure I've ever heard.

                        Regarding my marriage, I am a free thinker and my opinions and observations are the result of living a sober and faithful life free from closed thinking of religious teachings. Marriage has not been "wrong" for me or my wife of almost thirty years. I doubt we will live to see an anniversary such as you and your lucky wife because of our health issues, and not because we will divorce. I can make such shocking earlier comments because I am a student of human nature, I not only acknowledge the high divorce rates of failed marriage, I understand the many causes which I will not repeat.

                        I'm sure the many wives who were cheated on and or killed by their husbands would glady be married to a good man such as yourself, but such men are a minority. All the children abused, neglected, abandoned, or killed by their parents deserved better too.

                        Mark, as I have said before, you can talk about your wonderful marriage and great family with pride, but there are too many marriages and families that crash and burn. We must be upfront and honest in admitting a problem if we are to resolve it in time. I doubt anything I've said will change your mind to thinking marriage as an institution is doomed, just as nothing you have said has changed my mind to think it is alive and well.

                        I don't know the intimate details of gay marriage, but if "the husband" in such a relationship is kind, caring and faithful, then I think he has earned the right to that title. Unfortunately too many of our traditional marriages have husbands who never live up to such behavior or traits. Perhaps it is time to reconsider the toaster and machine gun scenario. Frank
                        __________________

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Gay Marriage

                          This goes back to the 14th amendment and a rather important follow up ruling to it denying "separate but equal" as a viable legal viewpoint.



                          Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                          There is no reason this could not have all been avoided by allowing Civil Unions the same rights as married persons which has been done in many areas.

                          Mark
                          No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Gay Marriage

                            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                            Charles, I wish you and you wife the best in the coming years. I have seen divorce happen in young couples who were not ready for marriage and all the compromise necessary, then after a child or two the dynamics change and present new challenges to the marriage, finally if there is not infidelity some folks seem to divorce when the children are old enough to leave the home. Women and men who have been unhappy for years and stayed together for the kids, finally reach a point at which they decide to end the misery.


                            "Based on your stated opinions and beliefs I would have to agree marriage is probably wrong for you. However, I married my wife for better or for worse and plan to honor that commitment. We share common goals and beliefs and I could not imagine life without her."

                            Mark

                            Mark, to begin with I don't agree with your mathematics. I still believe more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, but that does not mean they will end in the first year or two. However you compile your statistics, they seem to go against every reported figure I've ever heard.

                            Regarding my marriage, I am a free thinker and my opinions and observations are the result of living a sober and faithful life free from closed thinking of religious teachings. Marriage has not been "wrong" for me or my wife of almost thirty years. I doubt we will live to see an anniversary such as you and your lucky wife because of our health issues, and not because we will divorce. I can make such shocking earlier comments because I am a student of human nature, I not only acknowledge the high divorce rates of failed marriage, I understand the many causes which I will not repeat.

                            I'm sure the many wives who were cheated on and or killed by their husbands would glady be married to a good man such as yourself, but such men are a minority. All the children abused, neglected, abandoned, or killed by their parents deserved better too.

                            Mark, as I have said before, you can talk about your wonderful marriage and great family with pride, but there are too many marriages and families that crash and burn. We must be upfront and honest in admitting a problem if we are to resolve it in time. I doubt anything I've said will change your mind to thinking marriage as an institution is doomed, just as nothing you have said has changed my mind to think it is alive and well.

                            I don't know the intimate details of gay marriage, but if "the husband" in such a relationship is kind, caring and faithful, then I think he has earned the right to that title. Unfortunately too many of our traditional marriages have husbands who never live up to such behavior or traits. Perhaps it is time to reconsider the toaster and machine gun scenario. Frank
                            __________________
                            Don't take my word for it look at CPW's numbers. Now consider of the 41% divorce rate some of those are on their 2nd, 3rd or higher number of divorce so they are being counted a 2nd, 3rd or higher number of times.

                            If this is truly your opinion " I believe marriage is unnatural because it forces to people with different hormone levels, sex drives, health and social issues to remain together often unhappily. Defending traditional marriage as something that works is not realistic in my opinion." how can you be happy?

                            I don't care about the intimate details of the gay lifestyle or Civil Unions as it is none of my business. I am all for equal rights between Civil Unions and Marriages but that does not mean we need to redefine the definition of a marriage.

                            Mark.
                            "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

                            I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Gay Marriage

                              There we go. I now pronounce you.....Californians.


                              J.C.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Gay Marriage

                                Originally posted by ToUtahNow View Post
                                Don't take my word for it look at CPW's numbers. Now consider of the 41% divorce rate some of those are on their 2nd, 3rd or higher number of divorce so they are being counted a 2nd, 3rd or higher number of times.

                                If this is truly your opinion " I believe marriage is unnatural because it forces to people with different hormone levels, sex drives, health and social issues to remain together often unhappily. Defending traditional marriage as something that works is not realistic in my opinion." how can you be happy?

                                I don't care about the intimate details of the gay lifestyle or Civil Unions as it is none of my business. I am all for equal rights between Civil Unions and Marriages but that does not mean we need to redefine the definition of a marriage.

                                Mark.

                                The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
                                The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
                                The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73

                                Mark, that 41% is for the first marriage. Combine the percentages and you have a divorce rate of over 50%. Marriage is a failed institution,plain and simple. I don't care about the intimate details of any marriage until it leads to abuse, murder or divorce which involves the police, lawyers, the courts and children.

                                I can hold my unsettling opinions about marriage and still love my wife and remain married because I too believe in marriage vows. I understand the contradictions and conflict of being a living being with emotions driven by hormones, the product of evolution expected to be domesticated without a problem.

                                I am domesticated, evolved to the point of supressing my passion to cheat, my blind rage to stike out and hurt others when I feel threatened or angry, and all the other instincts I must deal with on a daily basis. That does not mean I do not recognize the same in others who cannot or do not conduct themselves in a similar manner.

                                How amazing it would be to be in perfect sync with my wife biological clock? Illness and age, do not allow for such things so I am happy for what I have but frustrated by my passion. I am not alone. There are many men and women who are frustrated sexually to the point of infidelity, what makes some of us different is our determination to rise above our sexual desire.

                                Mark, if marriage really reflected the natural behavior of man it would not be marriage it would be mayhem! My suggestions were meant to test the boundaries of marriage while still maintaining something that resembles order.
                                I was trying to illustrate one of the problems within marriage that leads to divorce, our sexual and biological difference. If I was talking about food and eating habits I might say, "I can easily eat steaks and icecream everyday without getting bored". While that may be as accurate as my capacity for sex, it is equally true that such a diet would lead to an early grave.
                                I am both happy and unhappy with my marriage, and unhappy with what I have witnessed of marriage with others. I feel alternatives are in order and when something such as traditional marriage fails as often as it does, it needs fixing! I think open mindedness, compassion and understanding are in order to understand the issue of gay marriage. This cannot happen if you are a person who believes word for word in the The Bible. No argument, information or situation can sway a mind that is already made up. My mind is still open to conversation, new ideas, and opinions. I understand but disagree with your argument and statistics. Blood pressure meds kicking in so I'll say good night and goodbye for now. Take care. Frank

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