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  • #16
    Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

    Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
    It seems to me many in America see China's economy growing and point to them as the problem. The problem is with American business investing in China in order to further profit off other Americans. China is simply a beneficiary of bad US policy, they aren't the enemy they are the ghouls that come along after the battle to sell collect and sell the armor and weapons for their own profit.

    GDP is Gross Domestic Profit. It isn't how much total assets we have. Our total assets do far exceed our national dept. While it is true our profits do not so much. Again we could easily pay off all our debt by taxing the hell out of our citizenship. We currently don't need to and aren't willing to. If you are going to declare we are losing an economic war the gloves could come off and we'd win hands down.

    Yes American jobs being sent overseas is a serious issue our government needs to address, but the problem is American companies buying our government off from dealing with those issues because doing so would hinder their profits. Now with our campaign finance laws in shambles foreign companies are also afforded the right to buy our politicians so I don't see things getting better any time soon.

    A recent example of the government working against the interest of the people would be S.3816 Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act. This law basically called to remove government subsidies from any business who chooses to hire outside the US. The full text of the bill is available for anyone to read.

    Our Senate voted to not even debate that bill. If the American people actually paid attention there should be outrage. Instead we'll continue to elect those who would send jobs away because by taking huge sums of money from corporations can buy expensive and flashy campaigns that can easily overcome the objects of the few Americans paying attention.

    As I've said we get the government we deserve.
    I totally agree with your post, however who do we elect that won't follow their own agenda ? Neither party thought the loss of American jobs for years was a problem, same with unsecured borders, loans to fund our wars and run our government, and everthing else that these two agenda driven groups have ignored! I'm voting republican this time to protest what the democrats have and have not done, but I have absolutely no confidence that a republican administration and congress will do any better. We are sunk in my opinion, just a matter of time now. Buy some nice presents for the holidays, a few big screen tv's, take a trip, finance a car and enjoy.

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    • #17
      Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

      Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
      It seems to me many in America see China's economy growing and point to them as the problem. The problem is with American business investing in China in order to further profit off other Americans. China is simply a beneficiary of bad US policy, they aren't the enemy they are the ghouls that come along after the battle to sell collect and sell the armor and weapons for their own profit.

      GDP is Gross Domestic Profit. It isn't how much total assets we have. Our total assets do far exceed our national dept. While it is true our profits do not so much. Again we could easily pay off all our debt by taxing the hell out of our citizenship. We currently don't need to and aren't willing to. If you are going to declare we are losing an economic war the gloves could come off and we'd win hands down.

      Yes American jobs being sent overseas is a serious issue our government needs to address, but the problem is American companies buying our government off from dealing with those issues because doing so would hinder their profits. Now with our campaign finance laws in shambles foreign companies are also afforded the right to buy our politicians so I don't see things getting better any time soon.

      A recent example of the government working against the interest of the people would be S.3816 Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act. This law basically called to remove government subsidies from any business who chooses to hire outside the US. The full text of the bill is available for anyone to read.

      Our Senate voted to not even debate that bill. If the American people actually paid attention there should be outrage. Instead we'll continue to elect those who would send jobs away because by taking huge sums of money from corporations can buy expensive and flashy campaigns that can easily overcome the objects of the few Americans paying attention.

      As I've said we get the government we deserve.
      American business leaders are doing exactly what they are paid (handsomely in some cases) to do: maximize the shareholder's equity. This is not something that they should be criticized for. They are playing the game in accordance with the rules of the game. The rules of the game have to change to favor long term growth, domestic investment, manufacturing, and manufacturing technology development. WE need internal sources of viable, practiacal alternate energy which will give internal US manufacturers a huge boost. The rules of the game right now favor short term profitability, and exploitation of cheaper foreign labor markets.

      I fully agree with you that the American Government is doing nothing to address the problem. This is true of both parties, and so far I'm not hearing anything that addresses the issue in a concrete way from the tea party, either. The problem is not with business, it is with the rules of the game. The American political establishment is in the pocket of those that are profiting from the current scenario. The fact that it's killing us is of little concern to those people... as long as they get theirs. Refusing to admit that the situation is destroying our economy, believing that China is our "economic ally", and continuing to support imports with our consumer dollars is not a lot better.

      None of this means that we aren't at war with China. The fact is, we ARE... and we are also at war with our own government for siding with the enemy, and we are at war with the Federal Reserve (controlled in part by foreign banking interests). Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative... it makes no difference. All the politicians won't do a thing to fight this war and they haven't for at least 40 years, and very probably longer.

      Irrespective of the government's inaction, Americans simply don't care enough to try to support made in USA items. How many of us bother to find out where things are made before we write the check? Or do you think it's ok, because China is our "economic ally"? Well, I buy USA whenever I can, and I pay more... sometimes two or three times more, and I'm happy to do it. THe stuff is generally better, anyway, and it matters that it supports US industry. Even if Japanese trade policies were fair, American made items would have a hard time because the Japanese POPULATION prefers to buy Japanese items over Western goods, with very few exceptions. In the US, we don't seem to care as long as it's cheap. We think that our economy can't be brought down... even as it falls apart around us. Or maybe that someone else needs to worry about it.... Incredible.

      The problem is also with China. They are absolutely not our ally, as you claimed in your earlier post. They promote unfair business practices in an overt - and thus far successful - attempt to bring wealth - largely US wealth -into their country to pay for their industrialization. We are not the only victim of this.... China exports to nearly every industrialized country on earth and they import, by comparison, very little from anyone. It's not by accident!

      If you really think that they're an ally, then you are part of the problem too... along with a couple hundred million others that fill their homes with imported stuff and then wonder why there aren't any good jobs, or why their kid with the $100,000 college education is working for $11 at the mall, or why your dollar doesn't go very far.

      By the way, GDP means "gross domestic PRODUCT", not profit. That's the total market value of all the goods and services produced by the United States. You seem to be one the many that believes that the US is swimming in bucks. Those days are gone. Why do you suppose we can't afford Social Security or Medicare, let alone idiotic wars, bank bailouts, inefrfective stimuli and health care reform? Why do you suppose we are borrowing so much? The fact is that American don't need to worry about "taking their gloves off", they need to worry about getting their heads out of the sand. The Federal Reserve's policies are bound to lead to significant inflation that is going to devalue the retirement savings of many Americans. Along with the rising cost of healthcare, and the declining prospects for Social Security, we are likely to have an entire generation of Americans that will be living in cardboard boxes under the freeway... because, like you, they believe that we are invulnerable economically - "it can't happen HERE".

      The fact is, when the US went off of the gold standard in the mid-1970s, the logic was that the value of our currency was defined by the strength of our INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION. We were the clear volume leaders in almost every type of industrial production, including electronics, automobiles, aerospace, and, critically, industrial machine tools, machinery and equipment. How well have we done maintaining that position? We are still the leader in aerospace, although our position has slipped. And that is due to Military money that flows into that industry. When you board an airliner today it is as likely to be an Airbus as it is to be made by Boeing. That wasn't the case in 1974. Yet you think that we would win an economic war "hands down"? You need to look around. The US is on a fast track to economic ruin simply because people, including apparently you, think that the gravy train will never end. Well, the current economic problems, and the fact that interest rates are and have been at all time lows, the government is printing money, and pumping huge stimulus cash into the economy like there is no tomorrow and our economy STILL can't seem to stimulate jobs says that not only has the gravy train passed, but we may have been left standing naked on the tracks.

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      • #18
        Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

        Still leads you back to the same problem. Americans. Our government is elected by us. Until that stops, Americans control who actually gets elected. Claiming the government has sided with the enemy is like claiming your fist is beating you up.

        Yes China does all types of bad things, enemy no, they are a sovereign nation and can do whatever the hell they want to their own country. We being a sovereign nation can in turn say we don't want to deal with them. My personal opinion is we should tax or ban anything that comes into the US unless it is made in conditions we require of our own people.

        From a corporate point of view they seem to think we should lower the standards of Americans so they don't need to go overseas. I as an American will not tolerate spitting on Americans to increase corporate greed.

        The gravy train is over. It ended for the middle class of America when we decided that corporate interests were more important then American people.

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        • #19
          Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

          Well myself and my Union brothers and sisters never agreed that corporate interests should over rule the good of the middle class or the country! Yes, corporate leaders did the right thing for their shareholders by outsourcing, and communist china did the right thing by selling cheap and defense attorneys do the right thing by getting the guilty off, but when does the USA do the right thing for the masses?

          I have been saying laws should have been passed to protect American jobs the same way many countries do, by heavy tarrifs and import limits. We don't play by the same rules as the rest of the world, so when folks talk about free trade and open markets my stomach turns!

          I'd like to say that communist china is the enemy! We may have dug the hole but the devil is filling in the dirt real fast. We can't compete with the slave wages and horrid working conditions of many countries, but communist china takes the cake. Please don't forget what this communist country has done to crush rights and freedom

          Saddam's sons and regime did not have the human right to kidnap, torture, rape and kill. They should have been stopped long ago, and communsit china should be taken down as well. Instead, we support the horror with our consumer dollars.

          Who will pass the laws and stop the outsourcing, bring back jobs and save the American economy??????????????? Dead silence. Yeah, American corporations and communist china did the right thing. Give them an ovation.

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          • #20
            Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

            I am not saying that anyone else is responsible for our economic woes except us. Just do not claim that China is our "ally".

            The fact of the matter is, I have worked with the Chinese and I rather respect them. They have focus and they understand exactly what they are doing. They have very much to learn about science and technology, but they are light years ahead of us when it comes to discipline, focus and following a long-term plan. And unlike us, they do not assume that the United States cannot be toppled from its economic perch. They work at doing that every day. They are a worthy opponent. However, respecting one's enemy does not make them less of an enemy.

            China certainly can do whatever they want. However, if they don't behave responsibly with respect to human rights or the environment, why do we allow unfettered access to our markets? And yes, we DO get to judge.... it is OUR market! Even more disturbing to me is that Americans "have to get" that flat screen TV.... or buy the cheap imported tool -- npo matter what the REAL cost. I buy USA whenever I can. Yes it costs more. I am not wealthy. This means I have to buy less. I'm ok with that.

            I do blame Americans for not being wiser (very purposely selected word) about how they spend their consumer money. I also blame them for falling prey to the baloney spouted by both political parties. There are no true conservatives... which IMO would be those that want to stick to the intent and principles of the Constitution. What we have are TWO parties of blatant liberals... that cater to different special interests and endeavor to redistribute wealth (that would be YOUR and MY money) to those people. The Republicans and the Demos are much more alike than they are different. The differences lie mainly in the demographics of who they cater to.

            I don't agree at all that it is not reasonable to claim that our government is siding with the enemy. While Americans are easily misled and DO tend to accept nonsense at face value, the fact is that we haven't had much choice in our elected leaders. We've recently had to choose between of Bush 43, Gore, Kerry, Clinton (both of them) McCain, Palin, Biden and Obama... not ONE of these people - winners or losers - has come up with any plan to revitalize American industry. The word "economy" has too many syllables for Bush and Obama's solution is close his eyes and pass out money. There are only a couple of folks in DC that I'm aware of have called for an audit of the Federal Reserve, including Ron Paul and Alan Grayson (2nd year Demo congressman from FL). My point is that while yes, the American public HAS allowed the wool to be pulled over their eyes, it's also true that NO MATTER WHO we had elected, we would be in the same pickle. That's why the Tea Party movement has gained such a following, and is growing stronger. It is finally dawning on many people that the political establishment is not only siding with the enemy, they are in fact the enemy.

            Finally, we did not decide that corporate interests are more important the American people. What we are guilty of is allowing the foxes to guard the henhouse.... the corrupt system of legalized bribery known as the accepted practice of lobbyists, PACs and other special interests that own Washington DC.

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            • #21
              Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

              Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
              Who will pass the laws and stop the outsourcing, bring back jobs and save the American economy??????????????? Dead silence. Yeah, American corporations and communist china did the right thing. Give them an ovation.
              Well the bill mentioned up thread was not silence a few Democrats proposed it and every single Republican voted not to discuss it. Both parties suck. I entirely support writing in who you'd want if neither is who you want in the job. I think if everyone wrote in 'none of the above' they might get the message.

              The Tea Party as a savior to our politics is a joke. If you want to bring our country back, abolish any and all of our socialized services. by all means support the biggest proponents of laissez-faire governing. They aren't fighting for America to be better then China they are fighting for America to become more like China. A world where the profit motive is allowed to surpass anything else, so what if they have to kill a million people to do it the other billion people will be better off. The days of robber barons are in our past and I'd really prefer our country not go back to that same mistake.

              There are already countries in the world where personal freedom is as unrestricted by the government as the Tea Party wishes it to be. Those countries forms or government are known to the rest of us as anarchy.

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              • #22
                Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

                Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                Well the bill mentioned up thread was not silence a few Democrats proposed it and every single Republican voted not to discuss it. Both parties suck. I entirely support writing in who you'd want if neither is who you want in the job. I think if everyone wrote in 'none of the above' they might get the message.

                The Tea Party as a savior to our politics is a joke. If you want to bring our country back, abolish any and all of our socialized services. by all means support the biggest proponents of laissez-faire governing. They aren't fighting for America to be better then China they are fighting for America to become more like China. A world where the profit motive is allowed to surpass anything else, so what if they have to kill a million people to do it the other billion people will be better off. The days of robber barons are in our past and I'd really prefer our country not go back to that same mistake.

                There are already countries in the world where personal freedom is as unrestricted by the government as the Tea Party wishes it to be. Those countries forms or government are known to the rest of us as anarchy.
                I think you are grabbing at straws if you believe abolishing all social services will solve our economic problems. Abuse of our social services is part of the bad business example our government is guilty of but there is much worse.
                Something needed to be done years ago when japan and other countries started bringing their cheap goods into the USA. Legislators did not act to put in place any safeguards, so we had foreign goods undercutting American made. Soon American corporations and business owners "wised up" and found greater profit in the cheap labor and absense of the EPA and OSHA abroad and to our south.

                There have been a lot of mistakes made over the years, and some criminal activity as well. A lot of young Americans were wounded and died in Vietnam, and for what? Now their clothing is in our stores and their country is a vacation spot! Can anyone remember the names of the big corporations that profitted from that war? The war could have been won, or it could have been ended years earlier. Lobbyists influencing legislators, brilliant way to run a country.

                Please see the big picture, it is a mess as far as the eye can see. There won't be any write in protest to shake the system, we will get more of the same flavor in a different color or wrapping.

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                • #23
                  Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

                  Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
                  The Tea Party as a savior to our politics is a joke. If you want to bring our country back, abolish any and all of our socialized services. by all means support the biggest proponents of laissez-faire governing. They aren't fighting for America to be better then China they are fighting for America to become more like China. A world where the profit motive is allowed to surpass anything else, so what if they have to kill a million people to do it the other billion people will be better off. The days of robber barons are in our past and I'd really prefer our country not go back to that same mistake.
                  Laissez-faire means that business transactions are free from government intervention and control. China is COMMUNIST. That is about as far from Laissez-faire as it's possible to be. You say that the Tea Party promotes Lassez-faire, but in the next sentence you claim that they want us to be more like China. These are polar opposites.

                  Fact is, I believe that Laissez-faire, which we in the USA have always been closer to than any other industrial country, isn't a good plan for the global economy. The Government in the US, according to the principles of the Founding Fathers, is charged to take the lead in those areas that private sector either can't or won't address. The globalized economy is one of those areas. The massive outflux of jobs and industries is evidence that lreaviong things up to business doesn't work in this environment. These are the rules of the game that need to be changed.

                  However, a socialist or communist system is even worse. We in the US have proven that having a free profit motive is the best way to build and push a nation to the head of the pack. Unfortunately, in the global economy, the nation we are pushing is China... not our own!

                  So what do we do, give up? I don't think so. To many of mine have died for this country. We fight! We fight with our votes, with our words, and with our wallets (well, some of us do, anyway). But whatever we are here in the USA, We The People are not quitters and we are not socialists.
                  Last edited by Andy_M; 10-11-2010, 02:19 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

                    Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                    But whatever we are here in the USA, We The People are not quitters and we are not socialists.
                    Andy, I shortened your post to address this one point. We Americans as a group are also easily distracted by stupid things such as celebrities and their problems with the law. Shiny electronics and the excess of our childrens after school activities. We are easily distracted by sporting events, and many of us are so caught up in our own personal lives that we are not educated enough about what has happened in our gorvenment.

                    The folks we entrusted our county to have repeatedly let us down. Can anyone argue that if they put county and we the people above personal gain and influence by lobbyists that things would be different? Imagine if they denied lobbyists access to legislators and decided to do what was in the best interest of the country fifty years ago? Manufacturing would still be here and strong because it would be too expensive to bring in foreign goods, just like what happens in the rest of the world! Corporations and individuals would still be making profits only their American consumer base would not be on the verge of collapse. I hate to be negative, but I don't think we will turn this around with our individual efforts or small but vocal attempts by groups such as the tea party. What we need are legislators who will put us above all else and move swifty to do what is necessary. We have not had that in the past, do not have that now and will not get that in the future! God Bless America and God help us.

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                    • #25
                      Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

                      Frank, I tend to agree with you.

                      But I don't feel like we can give up. With politicians from the traditional parties all doing the same things, I plan to vote out the incumbents and won't vote for anyone that has large money backing them. If those that get into office this time don't do any better, I'll vote them out next time, too. There is nothing to lose.

                      I do think that we can make a difference. Look at the impact the tea party has had. If nothing else they are shaking things up. If enough people start to buy USA made, we may see some manufacturers start to make a few items here again.

                      Are these little actions it enough? I don't know. But I don't underestimate the power of public opinion in the US. It's all we have. Besides, doing nothing is not an option. I for one can't sit by doing nothing while others pull the flush lever on my country and my kids' futures.

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                      • #26
                        Re: C.a.r.b. Off 340% on diesel pollution #s

                        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                        Frank, I tend to agree with you.

                        But I don't feel like we can give up. With politicians from the traditional parties all doing the same things, I plan to vote out the incumbents and won't vote for anyone that has large money backing them. If those that get into office this time don't do any better, I'll vote them out next time, too. There is nothing to lose.

                        I do think that we can make a difference. Look at the impact the tea party has had. If nothing else they are shaking things up. If enough people start to buy USA made, we may see some manufacturers start to make a few items here again.

                        Are these little actions it enough? I don't know. But I don't underestimate the power of public opinion in the US. It's all we have. Besides, doing nothing is not an option. I for one can't sit by doing nothing while others pull the flush lever on my country and my kids' futures.
                        Andy, I'm not dead yet and I do have daughters so I'm pulling for their futures as well. I wish I had your outlook that if enough folks buy American, things would change, but I don't . I feel we need legislation, and big changes from both government and consumers.

                        I'm afraid tea party candidates could get enough votes to upset some elections as spoilers but not enough to win big and make changes. We need more than to shake things up, we need problem solvers with detailed workable plans to take office and put into motion fast acting fixes.

                        We here on this forum have our differences, but for the most part many of us see problems with the loss of jobs, outsourcing, trade deficit, our government borrowing money, and so on. We are smart enough to connect the dotes, but far enough removed from the washington politics that make it impossible to do so!

                        I'll ask this question once again, someone, anyone, explain to me how with our unemployment, trade deficit, dependance on communist china and others for consumer goods and money to run our government, will our economy turn around?????My only answer is a well coordinated plany by legislators, economists, business people and manufacturers to transition from foreign made goods to made in America !

                        Miralces do happen Andy ,and that's what I think it will take. Will a mesiah rise from the gutters and lead Americans on such a mission? He or she will have to get the masses off their butts and away from QVC and the Home shopping network, out of the casinos and off track betting parlors, out of the bars and malls.

                        Americans put country first back during WWII, they sacrificed and together they showed the world what could happen . Will Americans put down their Ipods, laptops, cell phones and start talking to eachother? I wish I had the strength to stand on a milk box in Times Square and spread the word, "Good people, Americans one and All, gather round and shake your neighbors hand!", the time has come to march on washington and protest at every state capital until our legislators listen and take action". Andy, we need millions and millions of Americans to get out and protest, hold up traffic, rock that boat until it either sinks or the folks at the helm pay attention!

                        How about a wall of Americans on the mexican borders, not a few hundred, but hundreds of thousands forcing our government to deal with the illegals, deal with the drug cartels bringing their poison and violence into our country?

                        That would be something to see, something to write about in history books. Sure would make a better story than the one we have going now, dying a slow death.

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