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  • Slowly but Surely?

    I remember President Obama saying "the manufacturing jobs are gone for good and won't be back", a while ago. Today the President talked about jobs and making things in the USA to sell abroad, made it seem that he was open to new ideas.

    I got an idea, use some of that stimulus money to build factories, employ Americans and start making our consumer goods! Work with the republicans to pass legislation that would penalize imports, the same way foreign countries do to us. Who knows maybe if the cost is high enough some of those manufactureres will return.

  • #2
    Re: Slowly but Surely?

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    I got an idea, use some of that stimulus money to build factories, employ Americans and start making our consumer goods!
    Sounds like a decent idea. You know what that would sound like on FOX?

    'Obama seeks to expand his socialist agenda with his government takeover of the industrial sector.'

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Slowly but Surely?

      Slowly but surely?

      What?

      No disrespect, but I don't think so! You all just voted back the very congress that exported all our jobs to begin with. Didn't you just hear them say on Tuesday night that they can't wait to "deregulate"; "take us back to 2008"; "loosen the controls on business and banking to make it easier to do business" (all those nice things that plunged us into the almost broke economy that we have been suffering the last several years.

      Guess you weren't listening any better after than you were before. Now that the Republicans have a mandate from you, the first thing on their agenda is to launch investigations against the Democrats... on a "weekly" basis. (Of course when the Democrats came to power, these same crooks cried, "No sense in bringing up the past"; "Bush isn't here anymore"; and, of course the stupid Democrats took pity on them and never pursued a damn thing, the illegal invasion of Iraq, the illegal imprisonment of U.S. citizens without habeous corpus; the illegal investigation and eavesdropping on a wide range of American citizens; and the squandering of Billions of dollars as well as the blockage of EPA over gas drilling; untold tax breaks for big oil; back door deals with the power companies, electrical blackouts all over the southwest and encentives to business to allow millions of our jobs to go to China. Not to mention the massive increase in illegals coming over our southern border.

      But of course all those Democrat haters don't remember any of that! Nor do they remember or even want to know why the Republicans borrowed $billions from China to finance our war in Iraq and Afganistan. So now we got the Republican Congress back!

      Really nice, as indications of improvement are slightly showing... but we can forget about that, because we're going back to 2008! We're going to spend money on bombs and business... the he!! with grandma and her cholesterol medicine.

      The jobs that are gone are gone! The Obama administration was trying to create new jobs; jobs that would take the place of the old. Jobs rebuilding America's infrastruture which has been decaying, thanks to past administrations. Jobs in new technologies... which are being stimulated with your tax dollars which you are against. Jobs which new companies and old companies can create because their health care insurance costs were projected to decline in the coming decade (but not if the Republicans get their way). Yeah that might be lots of new jobs, but not if we cut stimulus money, and deregulate banking and business. (Understand that....DEREGULATION means companies simply move jobs to the most profitable areas possible... like your so-called slave labor in communist China.) Maybe what we could do though is give more tax breaks to the rich, and to the oil companies.

      The Republicans and the Tea Party want "government out of our affairs", isn't that why you just voted "Republican"? Now you are saying, " use some of that stimulus money to build factories, employ Americans and start making our consumer goods! Work with the republicans to pass legislation that would penalize imports,"

      Gosh darn there fella, isn't that what Obama was trying to do... but "The party of NO" were acting like a bunch of spoiled little brats and weren't going to negotiate anything. Apparently nobody understands their "all or nothing" approach to bipartizenship. Maybe you don't remember that in the first four years of the Bush Administration, the Republicans controlled the Executive Office, the Senate, and the House! In 2004, it controlled the Excutive office and the Senate. From 1995 to 2006 Congress was dominated by the Republican party. And during that time, little was done to stop the flow of jobs out of this country or to stimulate jobs for American workers, or to boost wages. Under those first four years when the Republicans controlled everyting (2001 - 2004), Bush vetoed nothing! We increased our national debt drastically, we lost millions of jobs to overseas, and we allowed more immigration (legal and illegal) from Mexico than any previous administration.

      So, I think you missed the part where you voted for the very party that gave us the problems that we now have and you once again voted them in and they are now insisting that all "stimulus" money stop immediately and all regulation that has been inacted in the last two years be repealed and further legislation on behalf of the American worker is going to stop because the Republicans want to launch weekly investigations which will tie up all progressive activity. It's going to be the Clinton years all over again, and it's going to be the Republican's fault, and it is going to be the Republicans who will blame the Democrats because nothing has gotten done. And, just like the last two years all most of us are going to see is that there's no way a a 2-year Democratic administratin can undo the insanity of almost 20 years of Repulican domination of Washington.

      Ahhh, history repeats itself and no one seems to notice!

      CWS
      Last edited by CWSmith; 11-06-2010, 02:01 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Slowly but Surely?

        Originally posted by boytyperanma View Post
        Sounds like a decent idea. You know what that would sound like on FOX?

        'Obama seeks to expand his socialist agenda with his government takeover of the industrial sector.'
        Sorry Boy, but I just don't share your opinions on Fox. Switching channels I can easily tell which way the news is slanted by how the same story is reported, or ignored. I didn't appreciate hannity defining patriotism when President Bush was in office and I feel the same way when democratic supporters did the same thing regarding critics of President Obama. I have the right to disagree without being labeled unpatriotic, liberal, conserative or anything else. I had great expectations when I voted for President Obama and the democrats, Fox did not alter my views on the events that took place since. I know when I've been used and lied to, and I refuse to support people who have lost my trust. Recently I voted straight republican as a protest against what I feel was an abuse by President Obama and the democrats.

        I truly think if there is any chance to save our country, the democrats and republicans must work together. Conseratives and liberals must put aside their blind faith and support, and see beyond their political agenda to what will work for the common good.

        The least of our problems right now is the media including Fox. We have serious problems that must be resolved by politicians dedicated to the American people, not their own political agenda! President Bush made mistakes and so did many of the former Presidents, that is why our borders were never secured, businesses and jobs were allowed and encouraged to leave, wars were waged that could not be paid for and more and more brave young Americans continue to be wounded and die. Fox and the rest can put whatever spin they want, the facts remain we are in a lot of trouble and still don't have any positive plans and results. "Come together", "Join together", "One Nation", before it's too late!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Slowly but Surely?

          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
          Slowly but surely?

          What?

          No disrespect, but I don't think so! You all just voted back the very congress that exported all our jobs to begin with. Didn't you just hear them say on Tuesday night that they can't wait to "deregulate"; "take us back to 2008"; "loosen the controls on business and banking to make it easier to do business" (all those nice things that plunged us into the almost broke economy that we have been suffering the last several years.

          Guess you weren't listening any better after than you were before. Now that the Republicans have a mandate from you, the first thing on their agenda is to launch investigations against the Democrats... on a "weekly" basis. (Of course when the Democrats came to power, these same crooks cried, "No sense in bringing up the past"; "Bush isn't here anymore"; and, of course the stupid Democrats took pity on them and never pursued a damn thing, the illegal invasion of Iraq, the illegal imprisonment of U.S. citizens without habeous corpus; the illegal investigation and eavesdropping on a wide range of American citizens; and the squandering of Billions of dollars as well as the blockage of EPA over gas drilling; untold tax breaks for big oil; back door deals with the power companies, electrical blackouts all over the southwest and encentives to business to allow millions of our jobs to go to China. Not to mention the massive increase in illegals coming over our southern border.

          But of course all those Democrat haters don't remember any of that! Nor do they remember or even want to know why the Republicans borrowed $billions from China to finance our war in Iraq and Afganistan. So now we got the Republican Congress back!

          Really nice, as indications of improvement are slightly showing... but we can forget about that, because we're going back to 2008! We're going to spend money on bombs and business... the he!! with grandma and her cholesterol medicine.

          The jobs that are gone are gone! The Obama administration was trying to create new jobs; jobs that would take the place of the old. Jobs rebuilding America's infrastruture which has been decaying, thanks to past administrations. Jobs in new technologies... which are being stimulated with your tax dollars which you are against. Jobs which new companies and old companies can create because their health care insurance costs were projected to decline in the coming decade (but not if the Republicans get their way). Yeah that might be lots of new jobs, but not if we cut stimulus money, and deregulate banking and business. (Understand that....DEREGULATION means companies simply move jobs to the most profitable areas possible... like your so-called slave labor in communist China.) Maybe what we could do though is give more tax breaks to the rich, and to the oil companies.

          The Republicans and the Tea Party want "government out of our affairs", isn't that why you just voted "Republican"? Now you are saying, " use some of that stimulus money to build factories, employ Americans and start making our consumer goods! Work with the republicans to pass legislation that would penalize imports,"



          I think you missed the part where you voted for the very party that insists that all "stimulus" money stop immediately and all regulation that has been inacted in the last two years be repealed and further legislation on behalf of the American worker is going to stop because the Republicans want to launch weekly investigations which will tie up all progressive activity. It's going to be the Clinton years all over again, and it's going to be the Republican's fault, and it is going to be the Republicans who will blame the Democrats because nothing has gotten done. And, just like the last two years all most of us are going to see is that there's no way a a 2-year Democratic administratin can undo the insanity of almost 20 years of Repulican domination of Washington.

          Ahhh, history repeats itself and no one seems to notice!

          CWS
          I both agree and disagree with your post. President Obama could have secured the border, but chose to do nothing unless he got immigration reform (blackmail). He could have refused to spend more money and spill more American blood in afghanistan but he chose not to, even though it is clear the taliban will share power once we finally leave! President Obama kept talking about jobs, green jobs, but where are they??? He and the democrats pushed a healthcare bill that will be paid for through increased taxes at a time when our country needs jobs!

          I did not expect miracles, but I did expect something different. Do you realize what would have happened if cap and trade was passed? The republicans put us in the coffin and the dems were nailing the lid shut.

          I have said it beofe and I'll say it again, neither party has served we the people. Once again who will save us? Not the republicans and no, not the democrats. Where does that leave us? President Obama refers to our friends in china, well our friends in china will soon own our country. Does anyone really think tax breaks to the rich will mean jobs in the USA? Maybe the answer is 2012, it sure isn't in our political system, nothing but a bunch of liars.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Slowly but Surely?

            Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
            I remember President Obama saying "the manufacturing jobs are gone for good and won't be back", a while ago. Today the President talked about jobs and making things in the USA to sell abroad, made it seem that he was open to new ideas.

            I got an idea, use some of that stimulus money to build factories, employ Americans and start making our consumer goods! Work with the republicans to pass legislation that would penalize imports, the same way foreign countries do to us. Who knows maybe if the cost is high enough some of those manufactureres will return.
            I suspect that it's Obama that will be gone and not coming back... after 2012.

            But irrespective of that, the Federal Government can't really build factories. The US Governement doesn't typically own factories for commercial production, with the notable exception of GM (went public, again, finally). There are some things that they can do, though.

            They can fund development of new, next-generation manufacturing technologies and make the results available to US industry. The private sector won't do this because for one thing, it will require an investment over several years that even the largest companies can't afford. The other reason the private sector won't do this is because of the notorious short term profit orientation of American business. They realize more profitability immediately by investing in offshore production rather than domestic.

            The Government can modernize the military. Yup, I said it. Increase defense spending! This employs lots of people at all levels, will improve national security, and will result in technological developments that will benefit American industry. Military spending is the reason the US led the parade in aerospace, materials, scientific/engineering software, supercomputers, etc. VIrtually no area of technology was untouched by defense. It's interesting to me that even thogh the Soviets went out of business, our defense spending has continued to be astronomically high. The difference is that we aren't developing new state of the art technologies anymore, as we were during the cold war. Not so good... same expense, much less benefit.

            The US government can invest in developing viable alternate energy. Obama spent a trillion on his ineffective stimulus package. They're not done yet. Nothing I've read indicates that the development of viable alternate energy solutions will cost the taxpayer as much as a trillion bucks. So why aren't we doing it? While Washington fiddles, the unemployment in the Silicon Valley - where a lot of innovative minds reside - is topping 20%. Is it a good idea to have the high tech folks at home watching Oprah when there are real problems to be solved? Is anyone taking note of how much the states and Feds are spending on UNEMPLOYMENT bennies over the past couple of years? We're paying people to stay home and do nothing, for essentially 2 years. Wouldn't it make more sense to get these people working on defense or energy programs? Sure it would cost more... but America would be getting something valuable for their investment! The return on investment for UNEMPLOYMENT bennies is.....zero.

            Just a few ideas. Our leaders are good at spending money, but they they just throw money at problems instead of targeting the spending and managing it to ensure results.

            Everybody is lazy in Washington. The Demos want social programs that redistribute wealth so that everybody gets what they need/want, but they want someone else to pay for it. The Republicans aren't much different. They don't want to work either... just exploit foreign labor and play finance games to generate wealth.

            What happened to the idea that Americans get ahead by WORKING HARDER and SMARTER, being the most productive society in the world and producing some of the best products available? That idea built this country... yet Washington has seemingly turned their backs on that notion. I think WE THE PEOPLE still have that crazy idea... it's our leaders that have lost sight of it.
            Last edited by Andy_M; 11-06-2010, 03:31 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Slowly but Surely?

              One place I would like to see stimulus money spent is in revitalizing our cities. I've had enough of paving projects, that is such a small sector of the construction industry. I admit that there are thousands of mies of roadways which need repair or outright replacement due to years of neglect, but an area where i think federal money would be better spent is in cleaning up the mess that we have allowed to accumulate in our cities. All I've seen done in our area is the repaving of streets and installation of curbing where its not needed. The Feds and State and Local politicians are taking credit for hundreds of new jobs created by these Stimulus Projects, but in reality they have created a few hundred short term jobs that will be worked by the same few one after the other. As one project finishes they move to the next, usually the next street over. On paper hundreds of new jobs were created, they just forgot to tell you each of those jobs was 3 weeks long.

              Go back 70 years or more and life in the US was much different, people lived closer to where they worked because mass transit, individual ownership of cars, and good public roads did not exist. Since the end of WWII when it seemed that every family needed a car (theres a whole story behind why that is) and their own 1/2 acre of America. Think Levittown (NY & PA) and similar developments across the country. When those people started moving out of the cities either to get their share of the American Dream or to follow their employers who left the cities for the wide open spaces of suburban America then the same thing that the USA is experiencing now happened to the cities but on a smaller scale. Their workforce and job base left causing them to lose a large percentage of their tax base. This led to not enough money to maintain roads, water and sewer systems, schools, police and fire departments, etc. All those areas in the city from which people and business moved out were not repopulated by new businesses or people, so they sat abandoned and decaying with zero tax revenue generated to help sustain the city.

              The other side of the coin is all the burden this expansion has put on the ecology, our water systems, and the increase in fuels expended just to get from A to B now-a-days. Where I live there is only one department store locally, and that is a WalMart. To shop anywhere else (not counting groceries or gasoline) requires a 15 mile trip to find a Lowes or HD, or a Best Buy, Target, Sears, etc. Yes there are a few little Mom and Pop operations like hardware stores, tire shop, auto repair, what have you, but a big selection. Out west in places I know it is the same or even further. Even though I am in an area of our state that is dominated by farming (over 70% of the county is farmland IIRC), in years past we had many more local choices for shopping, dining, and other pursuits. Now with the advent of the shopping mall and urban sprawl, that has all changed.

              So in a nutshell what I am suggesting might be a better use of some stimulus money would be to go in and clean up those abandoned properties. Remove the asbestos laden old buildings that make it cost prohibitive to new development and ensure that the hazard is properly disposed of which is to everyones benefit. Clear the lots and put them up for development and maybe offer low interest loans to help kick things off. Zoning can control the use of the land. Get some business back in the cities and provide safe healthful living conditions for the workers and you can bring back the city and we can stop encroaching on our fragile rural areas. This will help control runoff, pollution of our aquifers, and so many other positive aspects I can't name them all here.
              ---------------
              Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
              ---------------
              “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
              ---------
              "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
              ---------
              sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Slowly but Surely?

                Guys, if government money is spent fixing up cities and providing better housing before the problem of sustainable jobs is resolved we will simply have unemployed Americans not much better off with the exception of nicer housing and roads.

                I probably don't understand economics well enough or else I would be at ease with what the President and some of you suggest. I think no amount of new wave jobs can offset the loss of American dollars to other countries that supply our consumer goods. I think we must manufacture most of our consumer goods to plug up that loss of wealth. When folks mention tens of thousands of new jobs I can't help thinking of the tens of millions lost, that must be brought back! Levitown and the rest of the country sprang to life with Americans working, as the jobs and businesses moved away so did our hopes and dreams. Bring them back! Do the math, we cannot afford to pay for cheap labor if we are unemployed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Slowly but Surely?

                  I'm not proposing that we take stimulus money or funds from any other source and build affordable housing. I think that cleaning up those eyesores in the cities and removing the burden of dealing with the hazardous waste of those old structures will create a nice clean slate that will be attractive to a developer to come in and build on. It doesn't matter to me what the property gets used for, as long as it is turned into a tax ratable and is no longer a liability, zoning regulations will control how the land gets utilized. They are not going to get the land for free and some of the cost of cleaning up the plots would be recovered in the selling price AND in turning a vacant abandoned property into a tax ratable.

                  I'm just saying if we are going to spend tax dollars then there are better places than curbing and asphalt. We have water shortages and sewage issues across the country that need addressing. Dams that are stressed or operating beyond their design life, hundreds of bridges that need replacement and thousands that need TLC and back maintenance completed before they fall down. Where do you think this money will come from? We haven' been able to fund this work for the past 25 or more years because everyone wants to keep cost down. But every year we put off repairs and they grow in size and cost.

                  How far do you put off changing the oil in your truck? You NEED that truck ever GD day to make a living, so you take care of it right and do the maintenance when required. How is maintaining our infastructure any different?
                  ---------------
                  Light is faster than sound. That's why some people seem really bright until you hear them speak.
                  ---------------
                  “If I had my life to live over again, I'd be a plumber.” - Albert Einstein
                  ---------
                  "Its a table saw.... Do you know where your fingers are?"
                  ---------
                  sigpic http://www.helmetstohardhats.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Slowly but Surely?

                    No argument here that our infrastructure is in serious need of an overhaul. In my opinion our country would benefit from some sort of think tank that could suggest definitive plans and priorities from which to work. If we can agree that we need jobs, an overhaul of roads, bridges, water conduits and so on, why not have the most qualified and learned folks figure out how to go forward? Right now we the blind leading the blind as the folks in charge make one mistake after another. Certainly there must be a better way to proceed that will assure the best bang for the buck spent.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Slowly but Surely?

                      Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                      No argument here that our infrastructure is in serious need of an overhaul. In my opinion our country would benefit from some sort of think tank that could suggest definitive plans and priorities from which to work. If we can agree that we need jobs, an overhaul of roads, bridges, water conduits and so on, why not have the most qualified and learned folks figure out how to go forward? Right now we the blind leading the blind as the folks in charge make one mistake after another. Certainly there must be a better way to proceed that will assure the best bang for the buck spent.
                      As I see it, the crumbling infrastructure and decay of buildings, etc is all a symptom of greater economic woes. In the US we have long seen other symptoms. Americans put in longer hours than any other Western country. In fact, of the countries that track such things, only Japan works more than the US... and not by very much. Europians work considerably fewer hours and get more vacation time to boot.

                      Also, in the US "two wage earner" families have become the defacto standard. I'm not talking about those women that prefer to work, I'm referring to the fact that dual incomes have become necessary just to make ends meet. This wasn't the case until about 40 years ago. This is a major decline in the US standard of living, with IMO huge negative implications to children and the basic concept of the nuclear family. We tend to worry about all the social issues that negatively impact children, but IM none of them hold a candle to the problem created when both parents get home at 6:30 and are too exhausted to deal with their kids. What a disaster.

                      I appreciate the comments about rebuilding the infrastructure but do not see how this creates sustainable job growth, which to me is the issue. That's why I argue for investment in technologies that relate directly to manufacturing. As Frank points out, that is the area where we are doing poorly. If we get that back on track, and grow the US economy... then tax revenues will increase and we will be able to afford to rebuild the infrastructure. If we put money into infrastructure, we will end up with a nice new infrastructure.... along with debt, no new jobs, and no improvement in our ability to compete in the world market.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Slowly but Surely?

                        Yes, but how do you regulate or guarantee that invested dollars in any U.S. company is going to stay here and actually create jobs? While I do agree with your thoughts, my experience simply has not proven that such investments help U.S. workers.

                        Perhaps I live in the worst "corporate" area of the country, but I have seen a lot of "investment" by both local and state governments and all of it left the country on the very first opportunity.

                        Case 1. The place I once worked, accepted $10 Million from the state of NY in 2001. On the same day that Gov. Potacki (sp?) was handing the first payment of that sum over to our CEO, the company laid off over 130 employees... mostly over the age of 45 and in that process it didn't follow any of the rules defined by the Federal "Older Workers Protection Act".

                        Within two month of that date, that same CEO announced that several products were moving overseas. We lost two of our plant's product lines...one went to Naroda, India and the other to Shanghii, China. Nobody gave the money back and nobody went to jail.

                        Case 2. The largest employer in our area was at the top of thier game during the "Tech Boom". It was expanding facilities and building new plants here in the U.S.. Many of these new plants were really being competed for by several communities. Bonds were taken on by the winning municipalities for new streets, sewer, highway rennovation. All to accomodate the new facilities and to meet the demands of this new employer who would be hiring hundreds of new employers in these communities.

                        When the "bust" hit, this company just walked away, abandoning several facilities and laying off hundreds. In many cases, the promise of hiring had yet to be fulfilled and of course all that went away.

                        Certainly, no one should blame them for that, as certainly they were in "survival" mode and things got really bad. But, within a couple of years things picked up tremendously and the company's stock went up dramatically. But instead of renewing their plans with these communities, they took it all to China. Investing over $5 Billion in the first part of that venture; and since then, those investments have continued.

                        All of that infrastructure work then became the burden to the taxpayers of those communities. Not only didn't they get those jobs, but they become even more impoverished.

                        So, what is going to ensure that U.S. taxpayer money is going to be invested, NOT in greedy corporations who may profiteer from it, but in companies that will employ U.S. workers?

                        How do we grow jobs in a profitable way for American workers and how do prevent corporate and Wall Street greed from stealing us blind as they have in the past? Likewise, when are we going to make it a matter of "National Security" to employ American workers first... buy American machinery first... and realize that no U.S. company run by U.S. executives should be able to profiteer by off-shoring the jobs that were once held by American workers. Neither should they be allowed to profit by simply changing their headquarter's address to some foriegn country! Just like you and me, corportations have a responsibility to pay taxes to the country that has enriched them. I think it is far past the time when U.S. corporations get a patriotic backbone, and when our politicians and all of our citizens look at the practice of "off-shoring" and "tax avoidance" via change to a foreign corporate address, as a matter akin to treason!

                        I realize that my point of view is somewhat limited in certain matters. It is what it is because of what I've seen and what the realities are where I live. But, I've tried my best to read and listen and not just at the local news and the visiting radicals. I look at national and international news from many sources, not just Fox News and the radical pundits and self-centered fear mongers who are in it for no other reason than their own popularity ratings. There are a lot of so-called "leaders" out there that are thriving on making you and me fearful.

                        I have friends in other countries and I know that there's a lot of concern in our world, about where my country is going and where it's been. While certainly there is much to be proud of, there is also many things to be ashamed of too.

                        I have a simple vision of economics... in our free interprise system we can all make money; some of us will just be able to make "a living" because of our circumstances (education, age, race, sex, personality, political awareness, and quite simply "opportunity"). Other's unfortunately cannot make a living, regardless of ambition or willingness; and of course, there's far too many who get by quite well, simply from working nothing more than the system itself.

                        So while I realize that none of us are equal in our earnings abilities, nor should we be; but some among us are in a position to steal from the rest of us. There is a matter of fairness in the job market and in human value. There is also only so much money in the world at any particular point in time. If one individual is making scandously more than others... well then, I'm sorry, but they are stealing it! Should any CEO makes a hundred times or more, than their average employee? Should any manager make tens of thousands more than the people they manage? Should anyone, anywhere get a bonus for screwing up the company and should anyone ever, be paid a bonus when the company they are running has done terribly.

                        Lots of us complain about "welfare", as those who are too lazy to work. And surely there is some truth's to that. But everyone who takes "assistance" is NOT lazy, nor are they "milking" the system. I can only offer pity, if you've never been in need or known someone who is in need. Instead of being angry about those poor folks, you should be in alarm over those who are sucking $billions out of your company, your retirement fund, your investments, or your state and local governments; and especially so when they are doing that in the process of sending or keeping our jobs in some foreign country.

                        CWS
                        Last edited by CWSmith; 11-07-2010, 12:51 AM. Reason: errors, deletions, additions

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Slowly but Surely?

                          Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                          Yes, but how do you regulate or guarantee that invested dollars in any U.S. company is going to stay here and actually create jobs? While I do agree with your thoughts, but my experience simply has not proven that such investments help U.S. workers.

                          Perhaps I live in the worst "corporate" area of the country, but I have seen a lot of "investment" by both local and state governments and all of it left the country on the very first opportunity.

                          Case 1. The place I retired from accepted $10 Million from the state of NY in October of 2001. On the same day Gov. Potacki (sp?) was handing the first payment of that sum over to our CEO, the company laid off over 130 employees... mostly over the age of 45 and in that process it didn't follow any rules of the Federal "Older Workers Protection Act".

                          Within two month of that date, that same CEO announced that several products were moving overseas. We lost two of our plants product lines...one went to Naroda, India and the other to Shanghii, China. Nobody gave the money back and nobody went to jail.

                          Case 2. The largest employer in our area was at the top of thier game during the "Tech Boom". It was expanding facilities and building new plants. Many of these new plants were really being competed for my several communities. Bonds were taken on my the winning municipalities, new streets, sewer, highway rennovation, all to accomodate the new facilities and to meet the demands of this new employer who would be hiring hundreds of new employers in these communities.

                          When the "bust" hit, this company just walked away, abandoning several facilities and laying off hundreds. In many cases, the promise of hiring had yet to be fulfilled and of course all that went away.

                          While no one can blame them, as certainly they were in "survival" mode and things got really bad. But, within a couple of years things picked up tremendously and the company's stock went up tremendously. But instead of renewing their plans with these communities, they took it all to China. Investing over $5 Billion in the first part of that venture... which still continues.

                          All of that infrastructure work, became the burden to the taxpayers of those communities. Not only didn't they get those jobs, but they become even more impoverished.

                          So, what is going to ensure that U.S. taxpayer money is going to be invested, NOT in greedy corporations who may profiteer from it, but in companies that will employ U.S. workers!

                          How do we grow jobs in a profitable way for American workers and how do prevent corporate green and Wall Street from stealing us blind as they have in the past? Likewise, when are we going to make it a matter of "National Security" to employ American workers first... buy American machinery first... and realize that it is NOT a matter of Corporate profit by avoiding taxes via "off-shoring" either our jobs or the corporate headquarters! When will corporation get a patriotic backbone, and when will the citizens and government of our country look at off-shore employment and profiteering and tax avoidance as a matter akin to treason?

                          I realize that my point of view is limited. It is what it is because of what I've seen and what the realities are where I live. But, I've tried my best to read and listen and not just at the local news and the visiting radicals. I look at national and international news from many sources, not just Fox News and the radical pundits and self-centered fear mongers who are in it for no other reason than their own popularity ratings. I have friends in other countries and I know that there's a lot of concern in our world, about where my country is going and where it's been. While certainly there is much to be proud of, there is also many things to be ashamed of too.

                          I have a simple vision of economics... in our free interprize system we can all make money; some of us will just be able to make "a living" because of our circumstances (education, age, race, sex, personality, political awareness, and quite simply "opportunity"). Other's unfortunately cannot make a living, regardless of ambition or willingness; and of course, there's far too many who get by quite well, simply from working the system.

                          None of us are equal in our earnings abilities, and it's not particularly necessory, nor should it be. But, there is a matter of fairness in the job market and in human value. There is also only so much money in the world at any particular point in time. If one individual is making scandously more than others... well then, I'm sorry, but they are stealing it! Should any CEO makes a hundred times or more than an average employee? Should any manager make tens of thousands more than the people he manages? Should anyone, anywhere get a bonus for screwing up the company and should anyone ever, be paid a bonus when the company they are running has done terribly.

                          CWS
                          Right now there is no reason for businesses or individuals to invest their wealth in jobs here in the USA. Would it be possible to encourage such an investment by doing what other countries do, impose heavy tarrifs and import limits? Every time I hear an economist or politician talk about free trade and open markets, it reminds me that only our markets are truly open for all to trade freely! The choice is simple, bite the bullet now and legislate to "encourage" a return to the USA or continue to see businesses, jobs and American dollars leave.

                          Does anyone remember what happened when President Bush tried to save our steel industry and limit foreign imports? Global bullies quickly made it clear that open markets and free trade are meaningless catch phrases. China, europe, vietnam, sri lanka and the rest of the countires that supply us with clothing and most of our consumer goods are not our friends. The corporate leaders who picked up and took their jobs out of the USA , are not our friends. We should be able to have some impact on our destiny, but we need our legislators to work for us and not the folks who wine and dine them.
                          http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.35580f6.html
                          Last edited by Frankiarmz; 11-06-2010, 11:26 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Slowly but Surely?

                            Originally posted by CWSmith View Post
                            Yes, but how do you regulate or guarantee that invested dollars in any U.S. company is going to stay here and actually create jobs? While I do agree with your thoughts, my experience simply has not proven that such investments help U.S. workers.
                            A CEOs job is to maximize the profitability of his Company. That's why Obama stimuli, or republican tax cuts, have had and will continue to have no effect on stimulating job recovery. Companies will take the money and use it to maximize their return.

                            You have to change the rules of the game to make domestic production more profitable than outsourcing. Or the money is wasted.

                            Obama stimuli gets spent. Unfortunately, it gets spent on imported goods. Result? No US jobs.

                            Republican policy promotes tax cuts for corporate America. The invest in expansion of their business so as to maximize their return. That means, outsourced production. Result? No US jobs.

                            BOTH parties are not getting it done.

                            NEITHER, and the Tea Party as well for that matter, is addressing CHANGING THE RULES of the game to make domestic production economically favorable.

                            Plenty can be done in this respect. Import duties and restrictions are necessary. US payroll taxes should be assessed on every single job outsourced by a US company. No goods should be allowed to be imported that aren't manufactured in accordance with the same minimum wage, environmental and occupational safety requirements that US made goods operate under. It can go on an on. Do some of these things and you change the landscape so that China doesn't look so good.

                            THe US government finds it very difficult to have a direct interest in private corporations. It can be done, but it literally takes an act of Congress (ala GM). But what they CAN do is sponsor and promote development of technology that gives domestic manufacturing an advantage. They CAN develop domestic alternate energy that will give US industry an advantage. They CAN undo the watering down of the "Buy America Act" and get back to forcing government agencies (the largest single consumer by far in the entire world) to buy ONLY USA MADE. They CAN toughen up State Department technology export rules. There are many more steps as well, you get the idea.

                            Change the rules of the game, and industry will take care of the rest. Government handouts will NOT be needed.

                            We The People have a responsibility in this too. Buy American. Yes, it will cost more. Accept that sacrifices must be made. THere will be a payoff in the end.

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