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  • #16
    Re: Hard Times?

    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
    Thanks Andy. Guys, I'm not going to attack President Bush or defend President Obama, The fact remains that there are too many Americans out of work and too few jobs. We have no one in government working to change this very dangerous situation, and I don't mean create millions of government jobs.

    Illegals displaced a lot of good workers because they could work cheaper, you want to disregard that fact then we disagree. Our borders need to be secured and we need to employ legal Americans and pay them a living wage. I agree with Andy that there are a lot of folks who worked for years in the corporate world, those older guys and "women" are not going to work construction even if there was some magical job for all of them.. The thought of all those companies that up and left along with all the jobs outsourced to india and elsewhere bothers me, it leaves the USA with a giant void. There are no pyramids being built here that would employ millions of laborers, politics aside we need tens of millions of real jobs.

    Words like lazy and entitlement don't mean a dam if the jobs don't exist, those millions of folks out of work were working not long ago. The republicans did nothing to stop the jobs loss when they were in power, and the democrats did the exact same thing. In my opinion all the democrats did was pass their agenda on healthcare while ignoring the jobs situation. Too much time has gone by with nothing being done about jobs, now a tidal wave of folks will suddenly be out of unemployment benefits. They will have no income. Something must be done, and calling them lazy is not an answer or excuse in my mind.
    Frank

    What I've noticed with the hispanic workers in construction vs. the US workers is they can read a tape measure, and do trig. and geometry calculations where the US worker still use the trial and error method. All the US workers care about is quitting time so they can be entertained.

    James

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    • #17
      Re: Hard Times?

      Originally posted by James P View Post
      Frank

      What I've noticed with the hispanic workers in construction vs. the US workers is they can read a tape measure, and do trig. and geometry calculations where the US worker still use the trial and error method. All the US workers care about is quitting time so they can be entertained.

      James
      James, I won't argue your experience. I have seen hard working men of different ethnic backgrounds, chances are coming from a culture of very little compared to what we grow up with you make perfect sense. I wrote this thread to point out the huge problem we have of folks unemployed and the lack of jobs along with a ticking clock of what to do when the money runs out.

      Hard working or not, if folks are not here legally and sharing the tax burden, as well as paying for the many governmental services offered, I think it's a problem for the rest of us. Hard working folks who think they have done a good job and feel entitled to relax afterwards have realized more had to be done. All of us who were not involved with what our legislators were doing for the past forty or so years share in the problems of today. All the pork laden bills, over spending, lobbyist swayed votes, have resulted in a broke America.

      I'm all for stirring folks up to work and do a job they can be proud of no matter what it is. I worked cleaning toilets and floors, repairing trucks and finally running cables and working on utility poles, I took pride in everything I did. We can't lose millions of jobs and just write off the folks out of work as lazy!

      Now is not the time to keep playing the blame game. Our legislators may have made the exodus of jobs here easy for big business looking to make more profits, and the labor is cheaper outside the USA, and there is no EPA or OSHA to deal with, when all is said the problem still remains...Where do we get the millions of jobs that are no longer here and how do we employ the millions of folks whose benefits are soon going to run out? You may not think it's your problem but you and I will be paying one way or another, we always do.

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      • #18
        Re: Hard Times?

        Originally posted by James P View Post
        Frank

        What I've noticed with the hispanic workers in construction vs. the US workers is they can read a tape measure, and do trig. and geometry calculations where the US worker still use the trial and error method. All the US workers care about is quitting time so they can be entertained.

        James
        It sounds like you have a dismal labor pool to choose from. Regardless of the ethnic background I have not found many who cannot read a tape measure. As for those workers who only care about quitting time so they can be entertained, I've found that also can cross ethnic lines.

        Mark
        "Somewhere a Village is Missing Twelve Idiots!" - Casey Anthony

        I never lost a cent on the jobs I didn't get!

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        • #19
          Re: Hard Times?

          ya, hopefully by 2011 the economy will rebound ;-)
          Last edited by PlumbingSkool; 11-13-2010, 11:58 AM.
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          • #20
            Re: Hard Times?

            Heck, I raised a family doing all those jobs that illegal Mexicans do now. If they would control the border a few million citizens would have jobs.

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            • #21
              Re: Hard Times?

              Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
              Oh horse crap, those of you that of working age in the 70's had nothing less than the entire country HANDED to you all on a silver platter, and left MY generation with nothing but scraps and government handouts. And then you all turn around and chastize us for relying on welfare to get us through. You people had cheap gasoline, affordable college expenses, reasonable health insurance rates, double digit interest rates on savings and Certificates of Deposits. Not to mention the shear absense of "Big Box" stores driving out start-up stores led by anyone that wanted to be his own boss. A man in that time only had to work a full ten minutes for afford a loaf of bread at the Federal minimum wage at the time. Today, a man has to work THIRTY minutes for the SAME load of bread at today's minumum wage! Don't take my word for it, do the math yourself when bread goes for $3.59!

              Every single benefit YOU people enjoyed all of a sudden becomes an "entitlement" when we ask for the same priviledge our grandparents handed down to you? Class, real class. And you people wonder why we are forced to cheat, lie and steal to get ahead. Just remind yourselves one thing, it was you people that voted for a "B Movie" actor to play the role as some corporate puppet that robbed this country of a pension fund managed by the government, which in turn built these "big box" corporations, and demands those they robbed from to continue to pour their workers money into the same company that robbed them in the form of 401(k) used to purchase the company's stock! Forcing everyone to depend on the heartless, souless whims of the stock market to determine wether or not a man can even afford to retire when he is too old to work!

              Entitlement my buttocks! You people had it easy.
              Love what you posted, but unfortunately we were talking about the Great Depression there bud. I probably should of said 50 years and younger.

              As far as entitlements, I'm talking about what the average person "thinks" the government owes them...not the entitlement spending that is currently a burden on our economy.

              I'm 38 years old...and I have no idea what hard times in this country are..and that was the point. I don't know what it's like to go through the soup line for my next meal.
              Last edited by Flux; 11-13-2010, 01:11 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: Hard Times?

                Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                Something must be done, and calling them lazy is not an answer or excuse in my mind.
                Take a road trip down to Pa. and I'll drive you through Norristown, and you would take that statement right back. Deal?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Hard Times?

                  Originally posted by Andy_M View Post

                  It would be cheaper to develop alternate energy and give the US energy independence. Not only would this put the terrorists in a financial world of hurt, it would also give US industry a significant advantage. And all the while creating jobs to support the new industry. I agree that the government should not be looked at as the savior, but there are some projects (defense, highway system, etc) that are of such a scale that private industry just can't address them. Alternate energy is one of these.
                  My thoughts exactly!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Hard Times?

                    The constitution is pretty darn clear on what the government owes us, though there are expectations of services for taxes levied.
                    sigpic

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                    • #25
                      Re: Hard Times?

                      Dismal reception to United States at the G20 summit.


                      Basically said NO.
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                      • #26
                        Re: Hard Times?

                        Originally posted by tailgunner View Post
                        Oh horse crap, those of you that of working age in the 70's had nothing less than the entire country HANDED to you all on a silver platter, and left MY generation with nothing but scraps and government handouts. And then you all turn around and chastize us for relying on welfare to get us through. You people had cheap gasoline, affordable college expenses, reasonable health insurance rates, double digit interest rates on savings and Certificates of Deposits. Not to mention the shear absense of "Big Box" stores driving out start-up stores led by anyone that wanted to be his own boss. A man in that time only had to work a full ten minutes for afford a loaf of bread at the Federal minimum wage at the time. Today, a man has to work THIRTY minutes for the SAME load of bread at today's minumum wage! Don't take my word for it, do the math yourself when bread goes for $3.59!

                        Every single benefit YOU people enjoyed all of a sudden becomes an "entitlement" when we ask for the same priviledge our grandparents handed down to you? Class, real class. And you people wonder why we are forced to cheat, lie and steal to get ahead. Just remind yourselves one thing, it was you people that voted for a "B Movie" actor to play the role as some corporate puppet that robbed this country of a pension fund managed by the government, which in turn built these "big box" corporations, and demands those they robbed from to continue to pour their workers money into the same company that robbed them in the form of 401(k) used to purchase the company's stock! Forcing everyone to depend on the heartless, souless whims of the stock market to determine wether or not a man can even afford to retire when he is too old to work!

                        Entitlement my buttocks! You people had it easy.
                        I will agree that young people today face an uncertain future. IT's definitely beocoming tougher. That's what happens when you have irresponsible policies and a population that wants to have everything but make nothing. A population that enjoys cheap imports and then wonders why we suffer with inflation and ever-fewer good-paying jobs.

                        There are many aspects of your post that are disturbing. First of all, you obviously didn't live through "my" generation, so you really have no idea what it was about. It's true that saving interest rates were higher, education was more affordable and that the dollar bought more. No argument there. But - and I was there - it wasn't all sweetness and light.

                        Home interest rates in the 1970s were 12-16%. You figure out what the impact on payments are. We needed 20% down, minimum - there was no such thing as a "3% down" loan. My condo payment in 1980 was a far larger percentage of my income then that my house payment is today.

                        I can't speak to every occupation, but I was in engineering working on defense contracts. No one worked a 40 hour week - the average was 50-60 hours and often more. We were paid for 40 - salaried workers. But lest you think we made up for it with a huge salary, my first engineering job in 1978 after I graduated - paid a whopping $9 per hour. And that was pretty decent. My weekend job in college as an auto mechanic paid $8.81. An engineering degree from a prestigious University garnered an increase of 19 cents an hour.

                        Once in the workforce, we worked. A lot. I once went 4 months with one day off. How many people today would do that? Would you? I can't tell you how many weeks my time sheet showed over 100 hours, but I can tell you that my all time high was 118 hours. Again, paid for 40. I certainly wasn't alone in this. Before getting into consulting I owned a business and before that I was a director in one of the corporations that you loathe... there were many people that we couldn't get to come in on a Saturday or stay late to meet a deadline even at time-and-a-half. And it was especially true of the youngsters. At 5 o'clock the pencil drops and they sprint to the parking lot.

                        Today, people have to have Lexus and BMW and granite countertops and $150 designer bluejeans. In the day, we had used Fords and formica and Levis. We ate out twice a month, not twice a week. Even in offices, the majority brown bagged it - going out for lunch was a special occasion.

                        I worked two jobs to get through college. One during the week and one on the weekends. I drove a used car that ran on parts I picked out of the junkyard, and tires that were showing cord. I bought that cheap gas you refer to one or two gallons at a time because that was all I could scrape up. And that was the deal for the majority back then.

                        Today, most of my contemporaries' children have cars that Daddy bought for them. Daddy foots all or most of the $15-40k per year college tuition. American kids go to college - in large numbers. But they don't study the tough subjects like math and physics and engineering. They leave those for the Indian and Chinese kids. Yes, if you study sociology or history or political science, you are going to end up working in retail as a clerk. That is not MY generation's fault. We put men on the moon, we created a defense system that kept our enemies from destroying us from the mid 1940's until that B movie actor you denigrate put the enemy out of business. We invented the technology in virtually everything that you enjoy today. We gave it all to YOU. What have you done with it?

                        The point of your post that I desagree with most violently is your seeming defense of having to "cheat, lie and steal to get ahead". That statement of your speaks volumes. There is no justification for lack of personal integrity in any circumstance. That attitude of a lack of integrity - the willingness to lie cheat and steal in Government and and the financial sector is responsible for the problems we ALL face today. Not the hard work of your parent's generation.

                        Think what you like. IMO, the current generation was given a lot of advantages. Yes you do face some challenges. You can try to lie cheat and steal to get ahead, as you seem to defend... or you can man-up and try to drive the future, not expect that anyone owes you anything, and stop whining about how your parent's generation, who gave you everything, screwed you.
                        Last edited by Andy_M; 11-13-2010, 02:36 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Hard Times?

                          Originally posted by Flux View Post
                          Love what you posted, but unfortunately we were talking about the Great Depression there bud. I probably should of said 50 years and younger.
                          I don't understand your comment. The Great Depression started in 1930 and ended in 1941. People aged 50 were born in 1960, and other than Viet Nam, the 60s were actually a pretty good time to be a kid.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Hard Times?

                            Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                            I don't understand your comment. The Great Depression started in 1930 and ended in 1941. People aged 50 were born in 1960, and other than Viet Nam, the 60s were actually a pretty good time to be a kid.
                            People 50 years an older would have a better understanding of what their parents went through, as opposed to those that are younger and have no idea.

                            My grandfather was born in 1910 and passed away in 1996, and he use to tell me stories about the great depression.

                            I'm not sure how many 80+ people we have on this forum to tell us young bucks that we have no idea how hard times can be.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Hard Times?

                              Ok, now I get your comment, Thanks.

                              My Dad lived 1912-1999. Lots of good depression era stories there too. But through all of them was a spirit of resilience, and the notion that hard work would in the end make it better. Bet your grandfather's stories were similar.

                              And unwavering personal integrity and work ethic. My Dad had a jillion things he used to say that I will never forget. One was, "The world doesn't owe you a living".

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                              • #30
                                Re: Hard Times?

                                Originally posted by Flux View Post
                                Take a road trip down to Pa. and I'll drive you through Norristown, and you would take that statement right back. Deal?
                                Flux, I don't have to travel that far to find lazy bums got'em right here in my town. I still don't think there are 200,000 unemployed lazy bums in NY.
                                Those folks were working until the jobs were lost and I'll bet mostly through no fault of their ownI'm in my late fifties so I don't know first hand of hard times although I had very little extras growing up. I was blessed to have parents that cared a place to live, food and clothing. All the electronic junk kids have nowadays does not make for a better childhood or better people.
                                My wife and I bought a car for both our daughters when they were in senior year of h.s., no one ever bought me a car!

                                Lazy people aside, our country needs to make up for the millions of jobs that up and left. Where and when will those jobs materialize, folks want to work, folks need to work. I don't want to pay for lazy people out of work, or hard working Americans our of work. The talking needs to stop, our elected officials need to fix the problems. Secure our borders and bring back jobs through agressive legislation and a political system working together for the good of the country, not the party!

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