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  • #46
    Re: Hard Times?

    Originally posted by DUNBAR PLUMBING View Post
    The great depression kicked out a lot of very intelligent money managers.


    They think first, then spend and rarely spend when they don't have the money.

    That is the huge problem in America; always spending our future earnings.

    I'm a heavy part of that equation; anything I make, even if it is 10 grand...it's gone before it reaches my hands.

    This is partly why I drink a gallon of Nyquil every night before bedtime, along with sayin' the lord's prayer.
    Hope you're joking about the nyquil, it's not the alcohol in it that will hurt you but the acetaminiphen.

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    • #47
      Re: Hard Times?

      Originally posted by cpw View Post
      I did that plenty while in grad school. There is no way I would do it now.
      In school you are paying them for the education. Would you do it on a job? And still only getting paid for 40 hours per week? Some would/did. Not many would/do today.

      Originally posted by cpw View Post
      I've never talked to someone who's said, "Gee, I wish I worked more."; but have heard plenty of people say "Kids grow up fast." or "Enjoy them while they're young."
      We weren't doing it out of choice or because it was fun. I only knew one guy that I would say was a workaholic. We did it because in the defense contracting world of the 1980s, if the contract was cancelled you got a pink slip - often that same week. Then you would have a lot of time to spend with yor family, but unfortunately that quality time would occur in a homeless shelter. Getting behind on schedule was a great strategy to get cancelled.


      Originally posted by cpw View Post
      I work anywhere from 45-55 hours a week, though have occasionally (only 4-5 times a year hit sixty). And I don't come in on Saturdays or Sundays (though generally work in the evenings). There is always a deadline, and I already work pretty hard. Burning out isn't useful, and neither is spending so little time with my family that my wife leaves me.

      Working 17 hours a day for 7 days a week (118 hours) is not going to affect what I'm paid in any year more than 10% compared to if I worked 45. The only thing my company owes me is the pay for the months that I work, the only thing I owe them is the 40 hours a week and to not work in the same industry for anyone else. As soon as I'm not useful they'll lay me off and hire someone else in China or India.

      Jobs for life are a thing of the past, and the only way for a company to show appreciation is by cutting a check.
      That's certainly a valid perspective. There's no doubt that extreme jobs take an extreme toll on the worker and his/her family. And it's also true that there are few or no rewards anymore for going above and beyond the call of duty. We put the time in becasue back in the day, there were always gates you had to pass to get the next phase of funding. Your reward was, as we would say, "We live to fight another day!"

      But, other parts of the world don't have the 40 hour mentality. Maybe if Americans put out a little more effort today, it would keep a few more jobs at home. Sounds like you have a reasonable balance. I can tell you that many think nothing of working 30 hours and then offering that they didn't have time to complete their milestones in the schedule review.

      I don't really support or expect anyone to work crazy hours like we did. It was a different time, and you can't compare that to what is going on today. I was merely responding to the comment that we somehow had it easy. It sure didn't feel easy when we a design review was called at 11 pm on a Saturday or when the only sleep we got in an entire weekend was under a conference room table.
      Last edited by Andy_M; 11-14-2010, 02:43 AM.

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      • #48
        Re: Hard Times?

        55+ hours a week, every week. Sometimes all nighters followed by a full work day. I've got plans that involve an early retirement.


        Originally posted by Andy_M View Post

        I don't really support or expect anyone to work crazy hours like we did.
        No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

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        • #49
          Re: Hard Times?

          Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
          I've got plans that involve an early retirement.
          I'm glad to see the illegals(citizens and contractors) haven't caught up to you yet.
          Looks like you may be one of last lucky ones to make it through.

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          • #50
            Re: Hard Times?

            Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
            55+ hours a week, every week. Sometimes all nighters followed by a full work day. I've got plans that involve an early retirement.
            I remember working 10 to 12 hour days and saturday and sunday with no day off sometimes for more than a month at a time. The money was great and so were taxes paid. It becomes a routine, working every day. I miss those days, not the money but feeling productive and coming home to smiling faces. Those faces aren't smiling these days with me home all the time.
            Try to enjoy every day, even if you think there are better times ahead. You may look back someday and realize, these were the best days of your life.

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            • #51
              Re: Hard Times?

              Adam, the illegal contractors do make it difficult, but I do keep us busy redoing what they've put in.

              And Frank, these are just one of the good times. If things slow down, I get to spend time with my wife and daughter, if things pick up, I'll get a 3rd and 4th service man. THEN spend more time with my wife and daughter.

              Later on It'll be time to enjoy what I've built here, take more vacations and do some of the traveling I want to do. Time's about all I've got

              The best part is that none of it's really mine, none of the stress, none of the concerns of running a business. I just bring in service work, make sure it gets done right, and get a steady paycheck.
              No, it's not rocket science, it's plumbing and unlike rocket science it requires a license.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Hard Times?

                Originally posted by Andy_M View Post
                In school you are paying them for the education. Would you do it on a job? And still only getting paid for 40 hours per week? Some would/did. Not many would/do today.
                CS Graduate School is a strange hybrid. You get paid about 20% of what you get when you get out, in exchange for a free education. The few weeks before a deadline, I would work about 20 hours, go home and sleep for 4-6, and then go back to work for another 20 hours. My sleep schedule would shift to be more and more insane each day. If had no family, and was working at a startup, I probably would do the same thing, because there are big rewards.

                We weren't doing it out of choice or because it was fun. I only knew one guy that I would say was a workaholic. We did it because in the defense contracting world of the 1980s, if the contract was cancelled you got a pink slip - often that same week. Then you would have a lot of time to spend with yor family, but unfortunately that quality time would occur in a homeless shelter. Getting behind on schedule was a great strategy to get cancelled.
                Right now, working on a government project we are behind schedule and overbudget. The reaction is not to work harder when we are told we'll all lose our jobs. Those of us who believe we will have employment elsewhere in the company just don't believe it. The people who really believe it will get another job instead of waiting for the ax. I don't mind working reasonably hard, but also understand that as 1 out of >100 people, it won't make a huge difference if I kill myself and destroy my family or if I don't.

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                • #53
                  Re: Hard Times?

                  Originally posted by MoJourneyman View Post
                  Adam, the illegal contractors do make it difficult, but I do keep us busy redoing what they've put in.

                  And Frank, these are just one of the good times. If things slow down, I get to spend time with my wife and daughter, if things pick up, I'll get a 3rd and 4th service man. THEN spend more time with my wife and daughter.

                  Later on It'll be time to enjoy what I've built here, take more vacations and do some of the traveling I want to do. Time's about all I've got

                  The best part is that none of it's really mine, none of the stress, none of the concerns of running a business. I just bring in service work, make sure it gets done right, and get a steady paycheck.
                  And the lord willing,I do hope you receive all you have worked towards

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                  • #54
                    Re: Hard Times?

                    Originally posted by Frankiarmz View Post
                    Flux, I don't have to travel that far to find lazy bums got'em right here in my town. I still don't think there are 200,000 unemployed lazy bums in NY.
                    On top of the lazy people, how about the people defrauding unemployment right now? You know the ones...collecting unemployment, and also working under the table.

                    I just question the legit number of people on unemployment right now in this country...as the numbers we hear are not telling the entire story.

                    Out of those 200,000 in New York, how many of them fall into those 2 categories?

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                    • #55
                      Re: Hard Times?

                      Originally posted by Flux View Post
                      On top of the lazy people, how about the people defrauding unemployment right now? You know the ones...collecting unemployment, and also working under the table.

                      I just question the legit number of people on unemployment right now in this country...as the numbers we hear are not telling the entire story.

                      Out of those 200,000 in New York, how many of them fall into those 2 categories?
                      Even those performing fraud with welfare and unemployment still have to spend that money on something, usually on local businesses, even if it is on alcohol. So yes, even small businesses benefit from these programs.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Hard Times?

                        Originally posted by Flux View Post
                        On top of the lazy people, how about the people defrauding unemployment right now? You know the ones...collecting unemployment, and also working under the table.

                        I just question the legit number of people on unemployment right now in this country...as the numbers we hear are not telling the entire story.

                        Out of those 200,000 in New York, how many of them fall into those 2 categories?
                        Flux, there are a lot of programs that need cleaning up! Social Security disability was supposed to be for "workers" severly disabled, instead it is paying out for folks who never worked and folks who knew how to play the system. I can see providing folks who have no job or income basic food supplies, but we know they are buying high end stuff, liquor and smokes.

                        Yes, we the taxpayers are supporting a lot of fraud, BUT there are still millions of honest folks who lost their jobs and want and need to work. I am all for catching the crooks as long as our legislators get off their butts and figure out the jobs problem.
                        Last edited by Frankiarmz; 11-14-2010, 11:20 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Hard Times?

                          Originally posted by cpw View Post
                          Right now, working on a government project we are behind schedule and overbudget. The reaction is not to work harder when we are told we'll all lose our jobs. Those of us who believe we will have employment elsewhere in the company just don't believe it. The people who really believe it will get another job instead of waiting for the ax. I don't mind working reasonably hard, but also understand that as 1 out of >100 people, it won't make a huge difference if I kill myself and destroy my family or if I don't.
                          Perhaps, but what if 50 people out of 100 decided to put some extra effort in? Not necessarily destroy their family, but put out for a couple months. Would that matter? Isn't it kind of like voting: pretty easy to decide that your vote doesn't matter. But what if everyone took that position?

                          ALso, doesn't it seem that being late and overbudget and not wanting to do anything about it would help management make a decision to outsource, should that ever be an option? It's an easy decision if an internal group underperforms (I am NOT insinuating that your group underperforms in general - rather doubt it --just giving a "for instance").

                          I have no knowledge of your program, but cancelled military hardware systems were pretty commonplace in the 80s and 90s. Pink slips weren't an idle threat. And no one wanted the stigma of being associated with a cancelled program. Sure, one could and often did land on one's feet on another program or at another aerospace company. Today, as we're discussing in this thread, it isn't so easy to find another place to land.

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